Great Northern Fleet - 379s

[jon0844]

Few 12 car runs in the peaks these days too, and I can't see that changing when the more comfy but less numerous 379s arrive. Certainly feels like several 387s are still needed to avoid a net fleet reduction which would go down very badly. Perhaps the 6x 387/3s if keeping just one subclass makes any difference.

I think they're keeping the GWR ones, but there are no internal changes due on the 379s.

12 car operation seems to have gone out of fashion and the time savings, as well as issues when hooking up (such as DOO issues that mean manual dispatch or station skipping), might mean there's no desire to go back.

I suppose if the Sevenoaks services ever ran to WGC all day (and it's purely speculative on my part) then that would help with crowds at the southern end, and give people a choice between train type if they so wished.

 

[43102EMR]

I think they're keeping the GWR ones, but there are no internal changes due on the 379s.

12 car operation seems to have gone out of fashion and the time savings, as well as issues when hooking up (such as DOO issues that mean manual dispatch or station skipping), might mean there's no desire to go back.

I suppose if the Sevenoaks services ever ran to WGC all day (and it's purely speculative on my part) then that would help with crowds at the southern end, and give people a choice between train type if they so wished.

I’ve heard the GWR ones are amongst the first to go - however I don’t know whether that’s back to GWR or Southern.

 

[Royston Vasey]

I think they're keeping the GWR ones, but there are no internal changes due on the 379s.

12 car operation seems to have gone out of fashion and the time savings, as well as issues when hooking up (such as DOO issues that mean manual dispatch or station skipping), might mean there's no desire to go back.

I suppose if the Sevenoaks services ever ran to WGC all day (and it's purely speculative on my part) then that would help with crowds at the southern end, and give people a choice between train type if they so wished.

Don't the 12 car diagrams only run on the peak flow and go to depot ECS? Wonder what effect that has on utilisation.

 

[MikeWM]

Few 12 car runs in the peaks these days too, and I can't see that changing when the more comfy but less numerous 379s arrive.

There's a few though, even at weekends. The 1842 Kings Cross to Kings Lynn was 12 last Saturday, dropping off the back 4 cars at Cambridge. I assume it is the same every Saturday, though I don't actually know, that's the first time I've taken that specific service in some years.

(Yes, I did go to London last Saturday - to be fair I said 'barely ever', not 'never'. That's the first time in a long while though, and with the line out for Cambridge South works the next three weekends it will be a while before I go again. Given I went pretty much every weekend for many years, it's a big change to only go a handful of times a year).

Ely - Stansted - Liverpool St for the win

Yes! Not least because (a) the GA-only tickets are a lot cheaper and (b) that also (probably) manages to avoid the 720s, my second-least-favourite interior currently running on the entire network. (Very annoying that Cambridge has now been mostly lumbered with both the worst and second-worst).

 

[swt_passenger]

I’ve heard the GWR ones are amongst the first to go - however I don’t know whether that’s back to GWR or Southern.

It was mentioned in the west coastway timetable thread - someone expected the Brighton to Southampton route would see SN using couple of ex GWR 387s from June.

 

[dk1]

Ely - Stansted - Liverpool St for the win

True in some ways but Kings Cross is much quicker & further West. The seat quality means very little to me compared with speed.

 

[bramling]

It was mentioned in the west coastway timetable thread - someone expected the Brighton to Southampton route would see SN using couple of ex GWR 387s from June.

If I had to lay money on it, I wouldn’t be surprised to see the ex-LTS 387/3s stay on GN.

Another thought - does GN actually need to keep any specific allocation of units? We saw with the 700/0s that it was possible to keep a small number of units at Hornsey and rotate them round every now and again. So could the 387s become one pool (probably with the exception of the Gatwick units) with a handful based at Hornsey on a rotating basis?

I know it has been suggested on here that it is, just about, possible to run the GN service with just the 379s plus squeezing the 700 (and possibly 717) fleets. Whilst it’s probably just about possible on paper, I can’t see it happening. And if anything GTR seem to be more down the road of maximising Electrostar use on the GN side. Too many 700 diagrams north of Cambridge would likely get the user groups shouting, who seem to be quite adept at getting their voice heard up that neck of the woods.

 

[Sutton in Ant]

What does that even mean? It’s an utterly fatuous statement. DfT make decisions on various factors, but whether they “like” a particular area/group/whatever certainly isn’t one of them.

Really. I did a calculation a few weeks back and the Southeastern Fleet size is 395 and the Southern fleet size is 235. I think I made an excellent point.

 

[43096]

Really. I did a calculation a few weeks back and the Southeastern Fleet size is 395 and the Southern fleet size is 235. I think I made an excellent point.

That’s utterly irrelevant without more context On the scale of the two operations. I could just as easily say that Lumo’s fleet size is 5.

 

[PG]

Very annoying that Cambridge has now been mostly lumbered with both the worst and second-worst

Maybe someone at DfT read at the other place

 

[Failed Unit]

I think they're keeping the GWR ones, but there are no internal changes due on the 379s.

12 car operation seems to have gone out of fashion and the time savings, as well as issues when hooking up (such as DOO issues that mean manual dispatch or station skipping), might mean there's no desire to go back.

I suppose if the Sevenoaks services ever ran to WGC all day (and it's purely speculative on my part) then that would help with crowds at the southern end, and give people a choice between train type if they so wished.

You do make an interesting point, in the morning peak it looks likes similar numbers that are waiting for the Kings Cross trains to the Sevenoaks trains? I have noticed at WGC a number of people are travelling to stations in the core (I am one of them). But I don’t know if any are picking the Sevenoaks train because it starts at WGC.

Not much to do with the 379s of course, so going back to the topic, I wonder as the 379s have a product that can be marketed as First Class, if season ticket sales will increase. Right now I don’t think I would want to pay for a 1st class ticket on services where you are confident you can get a seat.

 

[Peter Sarf]

Southern gets no increase in units from this cascade btw. Rumour mill is saying that a batch of 377s will be off to Southeastern.

Best I have have heard is that Southern will get about 30 387s and lose about 15 377 to South Eastern.

If I had to lay money on it, I wouldn’t be surprised to see the ex-LTS 387/3s stay on GN.

Another thought - does GN actually need to keep any specific allocation of units? We saw with the 700/0s that it was possible to keep a small number of units at Hornsey and rotate them round every now and again. So could the 387s become one pool (probably with the exception of the Gatwick units) with a handful based at Hornsey on a rotating basis?

I know it has been suggested on here that it is, just about, possible to run the GN service with just the 379s plus squeezing the 700 (and possibly 717) fleets. Whilst it’s probably just about possible on paper, I can’t see it happening. And if anything GTR seem to be more down the road of maximising Electrostar use on the GN side. Too many 700 diagrams north of Cambridge would likely get the user groups shouting, who seem to be quite adept at getting their voice heard up that neck of the woods.

My bold. That is a good point. Only snag is that unlike 700s I suppose the 387s will have to use the core as ECS workings only.

Really. I did a calculation a few weeks back and the Southeastern Fleet size is 395 and the Southern fleet size is 235. I think I made an excellent point.

Who says Southern and SouthEastern have to have the same fleet sizes ?. Did they both have the same number of passengers pre Covid and how do they compare now its post Covid ?. My only hunch is that SouthEastern must be heading for a cliff edge as regards the Networkers being of an age !. Could argue Southern have no units near to the end of life since they bit the bullet and got rid of their 313s and 455s.

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

Best I have have heard is that Southern will get about 30 387s and lose about 15 377 to South Eastern.

My bold. That is a good point. Only snag is that unlike 700s I suppose the 387s will have to use the core as ECS workings only.

Who says Southern and SouthEastern have to have the same fleet sizes ?. Did they both have the same number of passengers pre Covid and how do they compare now its post Covid ?. My only hunch is that SouthEastern must be heading for a cliff edge as regards the Networkers being of an age !. Could argue Southern have no units near to the end of life since they bit the bullet and got rid of their 313s and 455s.

Networkers are far more reliable than more modern units but their 707's get the gold stars and its pretty clear a mass build of them would have produced a far better outcome but for years many operators are going to have to become adept at managing microfleets.

 

[crunchello]

5Q79 Worksop to Hornsey is down as running tomorrow 01/05/25. Same timings

Much appreciated thank you!

 

[brad465]

Best I have have heard is that Southern will get about 30 387s and lose about 15 377 to South Eastern.

GTR having a net gain in units would make sense, unless they were going to have unit numbers and type forced on them they'd want to gain something overall from the cascade.

 

[crunchello]

GTR having a net gain in units would make sense, unless they were going to have unit numbers and type forced on them they'd want to gain something overall from the cascade.

Do you think it would be possible for Southeastern to return all the /5s to Southern and receive another subclass in its entirety to avoid having half and half of a subclass between different operators?

 

[JonathanH]

Do you think it would be possible for Southeastern to return all the /5s to Southern and receive another subclass in its entirety to avoid having half and half of a subclass between different operators?

Is that a better outcome than having units in the 'wrong' paint scheme working for Southern?

 

[brad465]

Do you think it would be possible for Southeastern to return all the /5s to Southern and receive another subclass in its entirety to avoid having half and half of a subclass between different operators?

Probably too much mess with the paintjob. Southeastern did also used to have 2x 377/1s until the 455s were binned, so SE have managed with 2 subclasses of 377 before, as long as they are the same length (or 3 car perhaps, but not the 5 car ones).

 

[Sutton in Ant]

Best I have have heard is that Southern will get about 30 387s and lose about 15 377 to South Eastern.

My bold. That is a good point. Only snag is that unlike 700s I suppose the 387s will have to use the core as ECS workings only.

Who says Southern and SouthEastern have to have the same fleet sizes ?. Did they both have the same number of passengers pre Covid and how do they compare now its post Covid ?. My only hunch is that SouthEastern must be heading for a cliff edge as regards the Networkers being of an age !. Could argue Southern have no units near to the end of life since they bit the bullet and got rid of their 313s and 455s.

I would have thought that the DFT would have tried to get replacement rolling stock to replace the 455s and the 313s 1st . But it has taken this long and for Southern Railway to lose services for the DFT to listen.

 

[electro99]

Any videos of them on YouTube running up to Hornsey?

 

[HarryF]

Any videos of them on YouTube running up to Hornsey?

Not my videos, but here's two I found:

(Class 379 being dragged through Hitchin by a class 57)

(Class 379 being dragged through Peterborough by a class 57)

 

[electro99]

Thank you, just did a bit of digging and was able to find the first vid at the top!

 

[crunchello]

Any videos of them on YouTube running up to Hornsey?

im hoping to get a video of them today - I’ll post it here if it goes well

 

[swt_passenger]

Really. I did a calculation a few weeks back and the Southeastern Fleet size is 395 and the Southern fleet size is 235. I think I made an excellent point.

I don’t think anyone actually agreed with you though…

 

[physics34]

Best I have have heard is that Southern will get about 30 387s and lose about 15 377 to South Eastern.

My bold. That is a good point. Only snag is that unlike 700s I suppose the 387s will have to use the core as ECS workings only.

Who says Southern and SouthEastern have to have the same fleet sizes ?. Did they both have the same number of passengers pre Covid and how do they compare now its post Covid ?. My only hunch is that SouthEastern must be heading for a cliff edge as regards the Networkers being of an age !. Could argue Southern have no units near to the end of life since they bit the bullet and got rid of their 313s and 455s.

Southern would need an increase of 6 units for London Bridge to East Croydon /Coulsdon Town which are apparantly returning in december (maybe just peak times). We are also expecting Coastway west services to increase to 4 car (387s). Question is.. what other service increases are planned, and what for the 3 car 377s..

 

[crunchello]

Once again looks like 5Q79 (Worksop to Hornsey) hasn’t started - anyone got any further information on this?

 

[03_179]

Light loco 62 late in to Worksop
Waiting on info

 

[Robski_]

5Q79 running 64 minutes late

 

[crunchello]

5Q79 running 64 minutes late

Noted, thank you!

 

[Sutton in Ant]

I don’t think anyone actually agreed with you though…

I found this information on Wikipedia but you don't have to believe me those. Suppose you want to look on Wikipedia. Be my guest.