Great Northern Fleet - 379s

[Snow1964]

Any updates? Heard the SE tender was shelved aswell.

DfT published Business Commitments 2023-2024 for GTR and it is clear that 21-30 4car units (84-120 vehicles) are to be sourced (see section 25 on link)

Presumably 21 units is the basic requirement, and 30 if get a deal to take all the 379s. If the get higher quantity unclear if they lose something (example a few 387s to GWR), or if just get general increase of 9 extra units

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/1174405/govia-thameslink-railway-limited-2022-business-plan-commitments-2023-2024.pdf

 

[3RDGEN]

Given the focus is on cost cutting and fleet reductions does GN actually need 20-30 extra units and if so for what services as it's a significant increase on the GN fleet size.

I suspect this is the DfT wanting a current price for the 379's now they have been stood down for 18 months or so and if its the right price GTR can take them to allow other fleet cascades across the group.

 

[bramling]

Given the focus is on cost cutting and fleet reductions does GN actually need 20-30 extra units and if so for what services as it's a significant increase on the GN fleet size.

The answer is maybe. GTR have managed to deploy the 387 fleet in such a way that they have managed to reduce the GN 700/0 requirement from 8 down to 4, though the flip side of that coin is they have had to increase the GN 700/1 requirement from 0 to 1 (which nominally seems to represent the unit released from Littlehampton).

So it wouldn't take too many more Electrostar units to eliminate 700/0 from the GN side altogether, ignoring Welwyn-Sevenoaks of course. Especially as there are currently 387s having refurbishment and ETCS works.

Whether it might be possible to ditch 700 from any driver traction cards as a result I'm not sure, though this is only going to be of marginal benefit given the similarity to the 717 fleet.

The current situation compared to 2019 is that the peak Baldocks are still missing (6-8 4-car diagrams), plus roughly half of the peak Peterborough extras (at least 6 to 9 4-car diagrams). One can ignore the evening Peterborough and Baldock services as they would be resourced from the above. So to reinstate all the above we'd be looking at 12 to 17 diagrams.

Is there demand for these services? Again the answer is probably maybe, especially on Tuesdays to Thursdays. However is anyone going to want to pay for units to be doing one trip each peak? I suspect there will come a time when the current service is insufficient.

The other variable is that there's a significant amount of slack in the 717 fleet. This is being utilised way below what was originally envisaged. ISTR they are now 100-mph capable (is this now signed off?). I don't think there were actually any plans to utilise these for outer-suburban services, but it could certainly happen.

I tend to agree with the view that 30x extra units for GN would be excessive, so were it to happen it's a fairly safe bet that some 387s would be moved south of the river.

There was a proposal to alter the GN timetable so that the Baldock peak services extended from/to Cambridge, replaced by a Letchworth to London stopping service. This seems to have gone quiet, though elements of these proposals have appeared such as the Alexandra Palace call on the 2Cxx services. I know there was some kickback locally at the prospect of the Baldock starters being extended to Cambridge, as local users liked the fact that the Baldock services offered the prospect of a good number of empty seats without having to endure a journey on a stopping service, it also provided places like Knebworth with a fast London service. The difficulty was always that reversing at Baldock was difficult, really the Thameslink Programme should have provided a central turnback siding here. With housebuilding in the area, it probably won't be too many years before there is some need to reinstate these services in some form.

 

[RobShipway]

Given the focus is on cost cutting and fleet reductions does GN actually need 20-30 extra units and if so for what services as it's a significant increase on the GN fleet size.

I suspect this is the DfT wanting a current price for the 379's now they have been stood down for 18 months or so and if its the right price GTR can take them to allow other fleet cascades across the group.

As has been stated a few times in this thread, if GN procured the class 379 units, it could mean that the class 387 units could either move down to Southern or possibly move to Southern with some going back to GWR.

The details of the procurement are as follows:

"Fleet Procurement 25.1 The Operator shall conduct a competitive process for the procurement of no fewer than 21 units (84 vehicles), up to a maximum of 30 units (120 vehicles), by commencing with the issue of a prior information notice (PIN) by no later than [REDACTED8] that would enable the units to become part of the Operator’s train fleet by no later than [REDACTED9]
25.2 By no later than [REDACTED10] the Operator shall submit a report to the Secretary of State detailing the outcomes of the procurement activity detailed in paragraph 25.1, and including the Operator’s recommended option; and
25.3 GTR will provide progress updates against this paragraph 25.1, at the periodic train service development meeting attended by representatives of the Secretary of State and the Operator."

Including the Gatwick Express that Great Northern are currently using, they have access to 39 class 387 units. Now, this could just be my opinion but I think only 28 of those units are possibly used. So you could have the 30 class 379 units replace the bulk of the class 387 units. Then I see 30 units moving to GWR with the remaining 9 units moving south to Southern.

This will fill the requirement for the 30 100mph capable trains for Great Northern and 30 110mph trains for GWR.

 

[bramling]

As has been stated a few times in this thread, if GN procured the class 379 units, it could mean that the class 387 units could either move down to Southern or possibly move to Southern with some going back to GWR.

The details of the procurement are as follows:

"Fleet Procurement 25.1 The Operator shall conduct a competitive process for the procurement of no fewer than 21 units (84 vehicles), up to a maximum of 30 units (120 vehicles), by commencing with the issue of a prior information notice (PIN) by no later than [REDACTED8] that would enable the units to become part of the Operator’s train fleet by no later than [REDACTED9]
25.2 By no later than [REDACTED10] the Operator shall submit a report to the Secretary of State detailing the outcomes of the procurement activity detailed in paragraph 25.1, and including the Operator’s recommended option; and
25.3 GTR will provide progress updates against this paragraph 25.1, at the periodic train service development meeting attended by representatives of the Secretary of State and the Operator."

Including the Gatwick Express that Great Northern are currently using, they have access to 39 class 387 units. Now, this could just be my opinion but I think only 28 of those units are possibly used. So you could have the 30 class 379 units replace the bulk of the class 387 units. Then I see 30 units moving to GWR with the remaining 9 units moving south to Southern.

This will fill the requirement for the 30 100mph capable trains for Great Northern and 30 110mph trains for GWR.

The current GN usage is 31x 387, 4x 700/0 and 1x 700/1.

14 of those 387 diagrams do not attach/detach during their day.

So on paper if the GN were to return to 8x 700/0 then the 387 requirement could be reduced by 8, taking it down from 31x to 23x. Replace the 700/1 diagram and you're back to 26x, which would be about right from 30.

But there seems to be a reason why GTR have moved away from 700/0 on GN, which does seem to be that the 700 fleet availability isn't as good as was hoped. Indeed 700/0s substituting from 700/1s is pretty common at the moment, before May these would likely have been cancellations due to no train available.

On that basis 30 seems a bit tight, and certainly wouldn't allow any room for services to return to something more resembling 2019.

 

[RobShipway]

The current GN usage is 31x 387, 4x 700/0 and 1x 700/1.

14 of those 387 diagrams do not attach/detach during their day.

So on paper if the GN were to return to 8x 700/0 then the 387 requirement could be reduced by 8, taking it down from 31x to 23x. Replace the 700/1 diagram and you're back to 26x, which would be about right from 30.

But there seems to be a reason why GTR have moved away from 700/0 on GN, which does seem to be that the 700 fleet availability isn't as good as was hoped. Indeed 700/0s substituting from 700/1s is pretty common at the moment, before May these would likely have been cancellations due to no train available.

On that basis 30 seems a bit tight, and certainly wouldn't allow any room for services to return to something more resembling 2019.

I do not believe that any TOC will get back to pre - covid conditions Monday to Friday, the only time the passenger numbers will increase is on Saturday/Sunday journeys which I believe has been seen by many TOC's this year so far.

Many people that where working in the office pre - covid, are now permanently working from home so there is not so much of a demand as there was previously. So where 30 may seem tight for 2019 passengers working, it is perhaps more than adequate for workings in 2023. As yous stated previously, should it be required they is the slack in the 700/0, 700/1 and 717 fleets that could be used in place of the class 387 fleet alongside the class 379 units.

 

[Stephen42]

DfT published Business Commitments 2023-2024 for GTR and it is clear that 21-30 4car units (84-120 vehicles) are to be sourced (see section 25 on link)

Presumably 21 units is the basic requirement, and 30 if get a deal to take all the 379s. If the get higher quantity unclear if they lose something (example a few 387s to GWR), or if just get general increase of 9 extra units

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/1174405/govia-thameslink-railway-limited-2022-business-plan-commitments-2023-2024.pdf

The requirement is to run a procurement process, there isn't a requirement to award so it can still come to nothing. The lower bound is perhaps based on the 2027 projected demand across GTR and the upper as they are aware that the per unit cost is likely cheaper taking an entire fleet than 70% of it.

Given the focus is on cost cutting and fleet reductions does GN actually need 20-30 extra units and if so for what services as it's a significant increase on the GN fleet size.

I suspect this is the DfT wanting a current price for the 379's now they have been stood down for 18 months or so and if its the right price GTR can take them to allow other fleet cascades across the group.

It will be for the entire GTR operation, just the additional units only need to be compatible with Great Northern infrastructure. That makes sense as the off lease units largely don't have third rail compatibility and the existing 387/700 fleet can be moved around the GTR network.

There's nothing stopping DfT/GTR just asking for a price for the 379s without a procurement process. It's relatively common within public procurement to ask for a quote from potential suppliers before going to the expense and workload of running a formal procurement process.

 

[D365]

I do not believe that any TOC will get back to pre - covid conditions Monday to Friday, the only time the passenger numbers will increase is on Saturday/Sunday journeys which I believe has been seen by many TOC's this year so far.

Many people that where working in the office pre - covid, are now permanently working from home so there is not so much of a demand as there was previously. So where 30 may seem tight for 2019 passengers working, it is perhaps more than adequate for workings in 2023. As yous stated previously, should it be required they is the slack in the 700/0, 700/1 and 717 fleets that could be used in place of the class 387 fleet alongside the class 379 units.

All very speculative... shall we wait and see what the outcome of the tender is, first?

 

[RobShipway]

All very speculative... shall we wait and see what the outcome of the tender is, first?

It is all speculative, which is why the post was also posted in the Future of Class 379 in the Speculation section.

 

[Bikeman78]

I am guessing they are being extended (and RRHMplc accounts will be filed in next few weeks which might give details). But I do wonder if they will keep all 25 x 6car trains, or potentially return a few. What level of service is needed nowadays for Moorgate.

There must be a few spare. In their heyday, there were 21 sets of class 313s, 20 pairs and a single, running around, leaving just three spare units. Even with the full pre Covid timetable there would be four spare 717s. You'd like to think that a modern fleet would require fewer spares than a 43 year old fleet.

I can assure you that running brake tests were mandatory in the rule book but probably weren’t enforced by the management team as rigorously back then.
There is also no specific place to do a running brake test, only asap after departure. I’ve known Drivers do them at 15 mph in Gasworks Tunnel

Running brake tests became the norm after a train over ran Watford Junction by a considerable distance because the air pipe between the loco and the leading coach was blocked. Prior to that, they were close to non existent, in my experience.

 

[WAB]

There must be a few spare. In their heyday, there were 21 sets of class 313s, 20 pairs and a single, running around, leaving just three spare units. Even with the full pre Covid timetable there would be four spare 717s. You'd like to think that a modern fleet would require fewer spares than a 43 year old fleet.

I'd always been under the impression that short forms were pretty common, and it helped that until fairly recently, a large proportion of the 313 fleet sat around doing very little off-peak.

 

[Jason48]

Not enough unless of course the DFT want to cut everything down to 4 car. That would be mad but this is the DFT we're talking about...

They done it on SER. Most off peak services on Mainline are 4 car only

 

[Snow1964]

They done it on SER. Most off peak services on Mainline are 4 car only

Would be nice if they specified minimum 4 cars on Portsmouth-Cardiff. Too many 3car or 2car in practice

Not really overall shortage of stock, it's all the wrong sort, in wrong place, that cannot be used where it is most needed. Too much uniqueness so that staff elsewhere can't use it without lots of training, or cannot couple to utilise better.

 

[Gerald Fiennes]

There's nothing stopping DfT/GTR just asking for a price for the 379s without a procurement process. It's relatively common within public procurement to ask for a quote from potential suppliers before going to the expense and workload of running a formal procurement process.

Well, they could make a few phone calls and see what the thinking out there is, but for anything involving formal Ministerial sign-offs, they will always want a full-on process. Even for something that concludes the current fleet is just fine, after all...

 

[bramling]

There must be a few spare. In their heyday, there were 21 sets of class 313s, 20 pairs and a single, running around, leaving just three spare units. Even with the full pre Covid timetable there would be four spare 717s. You'd like to think that a modern fleet would require fewer spares than a 43 year old fleet.

I forget the numbers (I put the whole lot into Simsig only a couple of weeks ago!), but there’s shed loads of spare 717s. Pretty much half the fleet stables for the midday and evening, and two diagrams just do a Gordon Hill and back.

It’s quite ironic that the ancient 313s got absolutely hammered in their final years, especially post May 18, yet the 717s are now living a life of luxury.

Would be nice if they specified minimum 4 cars on Portsmouth-Cardiff. Too many 3car or 2car in practice

Not really overall shortage of stock, it's all the wrong sort, in wrong place, that cannot be used where it is most needed. Too much uniqueness so that staff elsewhere can't use it without lots of training, or cannot couple to utilise better.

It’s quite incredible that this forum has been predicting a massive surplus of EMUs, especially AC ones, for years, yet we have arrived in this ridiculous position of having too many of the wrong sort of trains.

I wonder if DFT use the same people the Bank of England use to forecast inflation?!

 

[SteveU821]

379’s on the GN next May is the rumour. It’ll release the 700s for TL work.

 

[Bikeman78]

I'd always been under the impression that short forms were pretty common, and it helped that until fairly recently, a large proportion of the 313 fleet sat around doing very little off-peak.

They all ran as booked whenever I visited the area. For the last few years, only two pairs and a single parked up off peak. Granted, most trains were single sets off peak in the early 2000s so over half the fleet was sat spare.

 

[warwickshire]

379’s on the GN next May is the rumour. It’ll release the 700s for TL work.

I have been told, this as well, but was back in late March 2023, by a Greater Anglia driver, but also advised to take it with a pinch of salt disclaimer, however hence reason ie why stored at Worksop, ie secure accommodation, plus to get 379s away from Harwich, before any more damage, especially from the sea water spray, ie sea salty water damage to actually stop them from running for good occurred. Ie to the electrical equipment on them etc. However this driver was quite knowledgeable and was only one of the very small few, who still signed them and took them from the locations, especially Harwich on the final ecs moves to Ilford. Back in the final week or so of the 321s.

 

[Minstral25]

379’s on the GN next May is the rumour. It’ll release the 700s for TL work.

For what purpose do they need to release Class 700s, as the fleet of 700s is not exactly stretched at the moment due to withdrawal/reduction of peak services.

 

[Mikey C]

I do not believe that any TOC will get back to pre - covid conditions Monday to Friday, the only time the passenger numbers will increase is on Saturday/Sunday journeys which I believe has been seen by many TOC's this year so far.

Many people that where working in the office pre - covid, are now permanently working from home so there is not so much of a demand as there was previously. So where 30 may seem tight for 2019 passengers working, it is perhaps more than adequate for workings in 2023. As yous stated previously, should it be required they is the slack in the 700/0, 700/1 and 717 fleets that could be used in place of the class 387 fleet alongside the class 379 units.

I don't think many people are permanently working from home. Mondays and Fridays perhaps, but most organisations are insisting people come in on Tuesday to Thursday.

And the London population is still growing, along with many parts of the southeast, with new flats springing up.

 

[Joshua483]

Running brake tests became the norm after a train over ran Watford Junction by a considerable distance because the air pipe between the loco and the leading coach was blocked. Prior to that, they were close to non existent, in my experience.

When did the Locomotive over run Watford Junction Station, roughly what year?

 

[Fincra5]

379’s on the GN next May is the rumour. It’ll release the 700s for TL work.

Not just that but allow SN to have the 387s to aid their shortage... in conjunction with some 377s to SE.

 

[Doomotron]

in conjunction with some 377s to SE.

Other than the /1s SE used to use, the Southeastern 377s were never used by Southern so don't really count as being 'borrowed', even if I'm pretty sure they're subleased to SE from Southern.

 

[JonathanH]

Other than the /1s SE used to use, the Southeastern 377s were never used by Southern so don't really count as being 'borrowed', even if I'm pretty sure they're subleased to SE from Southern.

The implication of the post is a move of 377s from SN to SE, not the previously suggested move of 377/5s from SE to SN.

 

[Doomotron]

The implication of the post is a move of 377s from SN to SE, not the previously suggested move of 377/5s from SE to SN.

Ah, I misread it. Sorry about that.

 

[Busman]

I do find the armrests on something like a 387 impede progress to some extent, as they seem to be designed almost on purpose to snag on when using the aisle. Likewise the full-size tables are a nuisance for those in the window seat to get in and out of, hence why the half tables on the 365s seemed to work better. An outer-suburban train really doesn’t need a full-size table.

Personally I find the tables and armrest a nice addition to a train journey and one of only a few luxuries we still have left in the stripped out, souless and basic world of the build trains of today.

If people are a) too stupid to mind themselves leaving the seat and getting hooked by an armrest and b) find tables a nuisance because they impede getting out of a seat at a station then that's their problem.

It's simple, start making moves to get off the train earlier and pay attention to what you are doing and don't sit in a window seat at a table if you want ease of alighting at a station.

Why don't we just take out seats completely and just stand up so they don't get in the way of getting off of a train.

 

[bramling]

For what purpose do they need to release Class 700s, as the fleet of 700s is not exactly stretched at the moment due to withdrawal/reduction of peak services.

This is the part I don’t quite get. There’s definitely been an effort to gently move the GN side from 700/0 to 387. But it isn’t really clear what these displaced 700/0s are doing or are going to do, apart from covering for 700/1s.

Are Siemens paid on a mileage basis for the 700s? That would certainly provide an incentive to reduce their use. Unlike some other fleets I believe there’s no means of getting rid of any units due to the terms of their procurement.

 

[Mikey C]

Could the 700/0s be used to operate "Southern" services?

 

[Mamorin]

Could the 700/0s be used to operate "Southern" services?

They do have shoe gear so yes they could, but given that would require train crew training and route learning I can't see that happening.

 

[Doomotron]

They do have shoe gear so yes they could, but given that would require train crew training and route learning I can't see that happening.

700s have run into Victoria before, so there's nothing really stopping them from being used on some Southern services, even if not all drivers are signed to do it. That said it would be limited for what 700s are already cleared on, but an additional Victoria to Brighton service (for example) could be done I'd assume.