Great Northern Fleet - 379s

[TonyColeman2]

This is when Great Northern gets the 379s with the 'nicer First Class' only for the DfT to decide to do away with 1st class on Great Northern/Thameslink/Southern routes similar to what they did on South Eastern/London Northwestern.

379s for Great Northern makes so much sense, I suspect in terms of training for the drivers it will be a short course (depends what differences there are with a 379 compared to a 387). Hopefully the time in cold storage at Worksop won't have affected them to make them unreliable.

As someone who works aboard the 350’s it may sound a bit controversial but it’s about the only good thing dft have done by getting rid of first class , saves a lot of hassle and abuse when challenging people without first class tickets

 

[MikeWM]

I preferred the pre-refurb 365s, but I'm quite content with the 387s. Doesn't take too long to get used to the hard seats and somewhat dubious ride quality, and given the only other options we have nowadays for Cambridge to London are 700s and 720s, the 387s seem really rather pleasant!

I did like the 379s too though, was not happy that they were replaced by 720s for WAML services, and would be happy to see them back around here. I do hope if that did happen, it would see the end of the creep-back of 700s to Ely (and even Kings Lynn). The Saturday late morning/early afternoon service from Ely has really suffered since the 700s were diagramed for most of the terminators last May - the choices for travelling to London now are 75+ minutes on a 700, or a 387 that started from Kings Lynn which you'll be lucky to get a seat on, neither of which particularly entice.

 

[JonathanH]

I do hope if that did happen, it would see the end of the creep-back of 700s to Ely (and even Kings Lynn).

It certainly isn't clear that 379s are intended to provide more capacity on GN or displace 700s. There doesn't appear to be any other route needing more 8-car 700s.

 

[MikeWM]

It certainly isn't clear that 379s are intended to provide more capacity on GN or displace 700s. There doesn't appear to be any other route needing more 8-car 700s.

Indeed. Hopefully it is just pessimism on my part, but I *really* don't want the result of this to be even more long-distance 700 diagrams on GN outers.

 

[bramling]

It certainly isn't clear that 379s are intended to provide more capacity on GN or displace 700s. There doesn't appear to be any other route needing more 8-car 700s.

It all seems to depend on whether any 387s get retained. Working on the basis that four 700/0s are nominally spare compared to how it’s been since 2018, without sitting down and working it out I have a feeling the current timetable could be delivered, just about, with 700/0, 700/1 and 379s. It might even be possible for 717s to slot in somewhere as there’s massive slack there. Doesn’t leave much headroom for growth though.

Indeed. Hopefully it is just pessimism on my part, but I *really* don't want the result of this to be even more long-distance 700 diagrams on GN outers.

I have a feeling it’s one possible outcome. Albeit if anything things seem to have blown the other way at the moment.

I reckon it’s theoretically feasible that *every* Ely starter could be made to be a 700/0, with the exception of anything which needs to be made up to 12 at Cambridge - which nowadays isn’t as much as was once the case.

 

[Hadders]

I suspect they're going to have to bring a few more peak extras back int he not too distant future. Pre-covid there were additional 'fasts' from Peterborough every 30 minutes in the peak that called at Stevenage at xx51 and xx21 then ran fast to Kings Cross. At present the only ones running are the 06:51, 07:51 and 08:51. Problem is the 07:17 Thameslink is becoming overcrowded so I can see that the 07:21 will have to be reinstated.

Will there be sufficient units to bring back some more peak extras?

 

[Skimble19]

I suspect they're going to have to bring a few more peak extras back int he not too distant future. Pre-covid there were additional 'fasts' from Peterborough every 30 minutes in the peak that called at Stevenage at xx51 and xx21 then ran fast to Kings Cross. At present the only ones running are the 06:51, 07:51 and 08:51. Problem is the 07:17 Thameslink is becoming overcrowded so I can see that the 07:21 will have to be reinstated.

Will there be sufficient units to bring back some more peak extras?

There will be. For Peterborough, it’ll be two extra southbound in the morning and two extra northbound in the evening. Should start in June.

 

[Hadders]

There will be. For Peterborough, it’ll be two extra southbound in the morning and two extra northbound in the evening. Should start in June.

That's good to hear. Hopefully these will call at Stevenage at 07:21 and 08:21 to complement the 06:51 and 07:51.

 

[D365]

There will be. For Peterborough, it’ll be two extra southbound in the morning and two extra northbound in the evening. Should start in June.

Good to hear that these are making a comeback!

 

[scrapthe503]

First 379 in passenger service on GN already slated for October 2024. Squadron service for December timetable change, with all Metro Cammell-built 465/466 gone from Southeastern at the same TT change. One assumes the 387s going south is to send some 377s across to SE to cover.

 

[physics34]

First 379 in passenger service on GN already slated for October 2024. Squadron service for December timetable change, with all Metro Cammell-built 465/466 gone from Southeastern at the same TT change. One assumes the 387s going south is to send some 377s across to SE to cover.

Thing is Southern need more stock not the same number so i hope the overall number of units going to SE is less that the amount of 387s coming over

 

[PGAT]

It seems a bit wasteful for Southern to refurbish some of the 377/1s only to send them off to Southeastern

 

[physics34]

... also , are you sure about the 466s? I cant imagine SE letting the 2cars go.

 

[ThameslinkUser]

It seems a bit wasteful for Southern to refurbish some of the 377/1s only to send them off to Southeastern

Porterbrook is financing the refurbishment, not Southern

 

[XCTurbostar]

Are you sure about the 465/466 pending withdrawal?

 

[D365]

It seems a bit wasteful for Southern to refurbish some of the 377/1s only to send them off to Southeastern

Porterbrook is financing the refurbishment, not Southern

Correct, plus the 375s are being refurbished under a similar workstream. So hardly a ’waste’.

 

[43102EMR]

It seems a bit wasteful for Southern to refurbish some of the 377/1s only to send them off to Southeastern

It’s only temporary pending the introduction of their new build fleet I would imagine.

 

[JonathanH]

How many 466s and 465/9s are still in service?

It’s only temporary pending the introduction of their new build fleet I would imagine.

Reducing the number of Networkers means that fewer new build units would be needed.

 

[XCTurbostar]

So the gains and losses will be something like this? Assuming SN loose 40 377/1s.

GN
+ 120, - 156, Loss of 36, 9 units

+ 379/0 - 30 x 4 = 120
- 387/1 - 32 x 4 = 128
- 387/2 - 1 x 4 = 4
- 387/3 - 6 x 4 = 24

GTR
+ 156, - 160, Loss of 4, 1 unit

+ 387/1 - 32 x 4 = 128
+ 387/2 - 1 x 4 = 4
+ 387/3 - 6 x 4 = 24
- 377/1 - 40? X 4 = 160

SE
+ 160, - 158, Loss of 2 coaches

+ 377/1 - 40? X 4 = 160
- 465/9 - 25 x 4 = 100
- 466/0 - 29 x 2 = 58

 

[cactustwirly]

So the gains and losses will be something like this? Assuming SN loose 40 377/1s.

GN
+ 120, - 156, Loss of 36, 9 units

+ 379/0 - 30 x 4 = 120
- 387/1 - 32 x 4 = 128
- 387/2 - 1 x 4 = 4
- 387/3 - 6 x 4 = 24

GTR
+ 156, - 160, Loss of 4, 1 unit

+ 387/1 - 32 x 4 = 128
+ 387/2 - 1 x 4 = 4
+ 387/3 - 6 x 4 = 24
- 377/1 - 40? X 4 = 160

SE
+ 160, - 158, Loss of 2 coaches

+ 377/1 - 40? X 4 = 160
- 465/9 - 25 x 4 = 100
- 466/0 - 29 x 2 = 58

But how does that work in the metro routes which are 10 car routes. It'll be a decrease in capacity as they'll have to be 8 car trains

 

[bramling]

So the gains and losses will be something like this? Assuming SN loose 40 377/1s.

GN
+ 120, - 156, Loss of 36, 9 units

+ 379/0 - 30 x 4 = 120
- 387/1 - 32 x 4 = 128
- 387/2 - 1 x 4 = 4
- 387/3 - 6 x 4 = 24

GTR
+ 156, - 160, Loss of 4, 1 unit

+ 387/1 - 32 x 4 = 128
+ 387/2 - 1 x 4 = 4
+ 387/3 - 6 x 4 = 24
- 377/1 - 40? X 4 = 160

SE
+ 160, - 158, Loss of 2 coaches

+ 377/1 - 40? X 4 = 160
- 465/9 - 25 x 4 = 100
- 466/0 - 29 x 2 = 58

It would be a massive stretch for GN to lose the entire 387 allocation. The general feeling is there would have to be a handful left, either permanently or rotated around with the Southern fleet.

 

[Robski_]

First 379 in passenger service on GN already slated for October 2024. Squadron service for December timetable change, with all Metro Cammell-built 465/466 gone from Southeastern at the same TT change. One assumes the 387s going south is to send some 377s across to SE to cover.

There aren't enough 379's to fully displace the GN 387 fleet. GN desperately needs more units, not less - especially if the plan is to go ahead with the proposed ECML timetable in December and the opening of Cambridge South. Also, I can't see many 387's going south, particularly because of the ETCS retrofit programme currently underway including a revised cab desk layout - GN could retain the /1 fleet and send down everything else (ex-c2c, ex-GWR and 387 201 - 7 units) though, so that the 379's can act as a class 365 replacement and allow for the reinstatement of pre-pandemic peak capacity and release class 700 units for Thameslink services elsewhere.

Of course this is all currently rumour and speculation, but if the 379's to GN plan and those timeframes are genuine then I would expect news about it quite soon.

 

[JonathanH]

379's can act as a class 365 replacement and allow for the reinstatement of pre-pandemic peak capacity and release class 700 units for Thameslink services elsewhere

It is well discussed that full replacement of pre-pandemic peak capacity is not likely, and indeed not necessary. It is conceivable that the desire of the DfT to bin off more networkers is the difference between using a small number of 379s, sufficient to restore some more GN services, and the full fleet of 30 units.

 

[D365]

Is it known yet [to relevant stakeholders outside of Alstom] what level of retraining the ’Atlas’ ETCS cab desk will require, when compared to the extant non-ETCS 387s and 379s?

 

[bramling]

It is well discussed that full replacement of pre-pandemic peak capacity is not likely, and indeed not necessary. It is conceivable that the desire of the DfT to bin off more networkers is the difference between using a small number of 379s, sufficient to restore some more GN services, and the full fleet of 30 units.

The not likely part I agree with, sadly, however not necessary is a matter for debate. At some point a 2019 level of capacity probably will be necessary, or at least desirable.

 

[scrapthe503]

It would be a massive stretch for GN to lose the entire 387 allocation. The general feeling is there would have to be a handful left, either permanently or rotated around with the Southern fleet.

It's not entirely correct to put it in those terms.

Class 700 utilisation is nothing like it should be - for many very obvious reasons.

In respect of the Cambridge to Maidstone, the unit saving on only going to Kings Cross must be at least 6 on a half-hourly timetable, and they were procured to be used. Add in the fact you don't have the services to Littlehampton, and there's a couple of 12 car units also not used. As a result, you have to start at the base of some of the Ely trains by all accounts being 700s in the new timetable in May which will roll over to December. That's a part of the puzzle solved, as 700s just get used on lots of GN services.

One could, I think, suggest that yes there might be a couple of 387s brought up and down to Hornsey, but one assumes it is not likely.

So the gains and losses will be something like this? Assuming SN loose 40 377/1s.

GN
+ 120, - 156, Loss of 36, 9 units

+ 379/0 - 30 x 4 = 120
- 387/1 - 32 x 4 = 128
- 387/2 - 1 x 4 = 4
- 387/3 - 6 x 4 = 24

GTR
+ 156, - 160, Loss of 4, 1 unit

+ 387/1 - 32 x 4 = 128
+ 387/2 - 1 x 4 = 4
+ 387/3 - 6 x 4 = 24
- 377/1 - 40? X 4 = 160

SE
+ 160, - 158, Loss of 2 coaches

+ 377/1 - 40? X 4 = 160
- 465/9 - 25 x 4 = 100
- 466/0 - 29 x 2 = 58

I don't think there is any evidence of 40 377s to Southeastern. It sounds like it could be as little as the 15 377/2s, as it's 377/7s only (to be confirmed) on Watford trains shortly, if not already. You've got the benefit of the entire fleet of 707s in squadron service, as well as the 376s for the 10-car railway (albeit a lot of Southeastern isn't a 10 car railway, it's 8 car on the Chatham or 12 car on the Charing Cross sides, save for Woolwich Dockyard and Hayes (?)).

Don't forget, on the main line you don't have extra peak services from Blackfriars as you once did, the Cannon Street to Thanet trains aren't all 12 car, and so one has to surmise that Southeastern doesn't need it's full fleet of 465/466 units (especially as Crossrail now does a lot of heavy lifting). The Networker fleet also harks back to a time when Metro went to Gillingham, which it doesn't anymore. It went to Faversham, Tunbridge Wells - this will all change / has changed.

The current number of 465/9s and 466s is only 158 coaches, that's not a lot to lose really, if you're getting a partial addition of 377 vehicles, and have got the 707s in and all working.

... also , are you sure about the 466s? I cant imagine SE letting the 2cars go.

This is where the picture complicates itself a bit and a bit hazy - I don't know how true the next part is supposed to be. The 376s go to Southern Metro, SDO-equipped and 10 car-capable. 377/3 and 377/4 formations that make 10 car, can be reduced and that frees up further 377s on top of the ones that are coming over as the 465/9s and 466s go. With all of those 377s, you've removed 375s from the Victoria to Ashford, Charing Cross to Maidstone, Victoria to Gillingham and potentially some other trains - Cannon Street to Ramsgate or Charing Cross to Tunbridge Wells might be an example.

So 376s go, 377s come, 707s stay, and eventually 465s go, and new trains are delivered. The 570 vehicles, at the top end of the tender, will be the correct figure, albeit potentially 568.

 

[brad465]

First 379 in passenger service on GN already slated for October 2024. Squadron service for December timetable change, with all Metro Cammell-built 465/466 gone from Southeastern at the same TT change. One assumes the 387s going south is to send some 377s across to SE to cover.

Are you connected to an official source for this?

It’s only temporary pending the introduction of their new build fleet I would imagine.

If you're referring to Southeastern their desire for a new build fleet seems to be going nowhere (i.e. the tender they put out hasn't been approved).

How many 466s and 465/9s are still in service?

Reducing the number of Networkers means that fewer new build units would be needed.

Southeastern's fleet management is a mess IMO, they need a completely new metro fleet, not just multiple micro fleets coming over to chip away at the oldest units. We've had 707s, now we're having 377/1s (assuming there are differences with the 377/5s that need attention) by the look of it adding to many different micro-fleets SE drivers and maintenance staff have to know how to deal with. Of course SE receiving them is not all their fault, I think one can blame various aspects of franchise agreements and/or manufacturing results/numbers involved in the previous operators as well.

 

[scrapthe503]

Are you connected to an official source for this?

If you're referring to Southeastern their desire for a new build fleet seems to be going nowhere (i.e. the tender they put out hasn't been approved).

Southeastern's fleet management is a mess IMO, they need a completely new metro fleet, not just multiple micro fleets coming over to chip away at the oldest units. We've had 707s, now we're having 377/1s (assuming there are differences with the 377/5s that need attention) by the look of it adding to many different micro-fleets SE drivers and maintenance staff have to know how to deal with. Of course SE receiving them is not all their fault, I think one can blame various aspects of franchise agreements and/or manufacturing results/numbers involved in the previous operators as well.

People are not required to reveal 'official sources' I don't believe - although I stand to be corrected.

 

[43074]

People are not required to reveal 'official sources' I don't believe - although I stand to be corrected.

Just as well, because for the most part your "official sources" appear to be incorrect on several counts

 

[JonathanH]

377/3 and 377/4 formations that make 10 car, can be reduced and that frees up further 377s on top of the ones that are coming over as the 465/9s and 466s go.

Southern don't run 10-car 3-377+3-377+4-377 formations any more. The 377/3s are used on Tulse Hill services in 6-car formation and alone on Redhill to Tonbridge and Coastway stopping services. Some of the former 10-car routes are now served by 8-car formations.