Great Northern Fleet - 379s

[swt_passenger]

In which case Southern doesn't need any more units either as there are no plans to increase services there. The plan I suggested future-proofs for potential passenger growth across all three brands.

TfL have just abandoned plans to run LO ELL services into London Bridge because SN intend to restore more services from next May/June’s timetable change.

 

[JonathanH]

How is Southern doing fleetwise since the 455s and 313s have gone?

Badly that is why the 379s are needed to start a cascade.
- 20x 3car (-60cars)
- 46x 4car (-184 cars) effectively only about 25 fully utilised units though

Asking from a position of ignorance, where is Southern doing badly? Services have been cut to match the fleet size, which was a near 20% reduction. There don't appear to be more cancellations. Again from a position of ignorance, where are they leaving passengers in the peaks behind as a result?

Presumably no one is planning on the basis of passengers returning to 2020 levels?

My question above is not intended to question that there might be issues. I am asking the question to understand where the particular issues are.

 

[westcoaster]

Pie eye in the sky Could an internal reshuffle happen
I.e 379's to replace 387's.
387's to replace 700/1 on Brighton to Cambridge or Horsham to Peterborough. Or another GN to SE destination.
Released 700/1 to replace any long distance 700/0 runs.
700/0 onto more local commuter routes ex kings cross.

 

[Robski_]

TfL have just abandoned plans to run LO ELL services into London Bridge because SN intend to restore more services from next May/June’s timetable change.

... in 2025, by which point additional services may be necessary on Thameslink/GN too.

Southern doesn't need additional capacity while they are still selling £7 advances for Portsmouth to London (are they still running that peak advance fares trial?).

 

[Park47515]

Pie eye in the sky Could an internal reshuffle happen
I.e 379's to replace 387's.
387's to replace 700/1 on Brighton to Cambridge or Horsham to Peterborough. Or another GN to SE destination.
Released 700/1 to replace any long distance 700/0 runs.
700/0 onto more local commuter routes ex kings cross.

387/1s on Thameslink is not going to happen.

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

Pie eye in the sky Could an internal reshuffle happen
I.e 379's to replace 387's.
387's to replace 700/1 on Brighton to Cambridge or Horsham to Peterborough. Or another GN to SE destination.
Released 700/1 to replace any long distance 700/0 runs.
700/0 onto more local commuter routes ex kings cross.

Thameslink core services need to be run by 700's more options on the non core operated 700 services of course but 700's are already under utilised now so makes more sense to increase their deployment on GN services especially as they are already being retrofitted with the latest version of ETCS at a cost of 33m.

 

[hwl]

Asking from a position of ignorance, where is Southern doing badly? Services have been cut to match the fleet size, which was a near 20% reduction. There don't appear to be more cancellations. Again from a position of ignorance, where are they leaving passengers in the peaks behind as a result?

Presumably no one is planning on the basis of passengers returning to 2020 levels?

My question above is not intended to question that there might be issues. I am asking the question to understand where the particular issues are.

They axed services and people just gave up e.g. Southern axed services on the Forest Hill / Anerley corridor which is causing lots of issue along the corridor especially New Cross Gate - London Bridge.

... in 2025, by which point additional services may be necessary on Thameslink/GN too.

Southern doesn't need additional capacity while they are still selling £7 advances for Portsmouth to London (are they still running that peak advance fares trial?).

Southern Metro does need more units...

 

[PGAT]

Asking from a position of ignorance, where is Southern doing badly? Services have been cut to match the fleet size, which was a near 20% reduction. There don't appear to be more cancellations. Again from a position of ignorance, where are they leaving passengers in the peaks behind as a result?

Presumably no one is planning on the basis of passengers returning to 2020 levels?

My question above is not intended to question that there might be issues. I am asking the question to understand where the particular issues are.

The general perception is that the service pattern is poor, not necessarily because of overcrowding but because it has stunted passenger recovery and screws over remaining passengers and the fleet size is the limiting factor causing all of this.

 

[cactustwirly]

It was suggested elsewhere that all 39 would go to Southern, allowing a similar amount of 377/1s to join Southeastern, with some of the not at all intensively used 717 fleet working a few of the more lightly loaded current 700 workings out of King's Cross. A handful of 700s would then support the 379s on Ely services. I can't remember where I saw that now.

I'm keen to know if Southeastern actually plan to give their 377s their own interior. They put so much work into making the 375s nice inside, but then received the 377/5s and just left them with absolutely filthy green seat covers and Southern blue walls and panels. The 377/1s won't be filthy thanks to the refurbishment, but they will be off brand.

Only in the pernickety interests of neatness and consistency, if GTR did become in a position to give Southeastern around 40 377/1s, it's a shame they couldn't instead hand over all 64 377/1s and therefore take their 377/5s (there's 23 so it works!), meaning both TOCs would have a whole subclass rather than half and half. I suppose there's little merit in that for SE as the 377/1s have three different layouts among them anyway, so that's not really a serious suggestion that I'd believe to be beneficial, just me being unusually a little OCD there

It's unlikely they'll have the capex to change the interior as this would be a significant cost.

I would imagine they'll just put Southeastern logos like on the 377/2s they had.

The reason why the 377s are moving is probably cost driven to save on the expensive 465 maintenance

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

It's unlikely they'll have the capex to change the interior as this would be a significant cost.

I would imagine they'll just put Southeastern logos like on the 377/2s they had.

The reason why the 377s are moving is probably cost driven to save on the expensive 465 maintenance

They had the 377/1s (not /2s) only temporarily. If it's a permanent change, Southern livery isn't going to look good, especially if it's on forty of them.

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

It's unlikely they'll have the capex to change the interior as this would be a significant cost.

I would imagine they'll just put Southeastern logos like on the 377/2s they had.

The reason why the 377s are moving is probably cost driven to save on the expensive 465 maintenance

SE need to maintain them not the nonsense that goes on with the 5's trundling backwards and forwards to Selhurst

 

[cactustwirly]

They had the 377/1s (not /2s) only temporarily. If it's a permanent change, Southern livery isn't going to look good, especially if it's on forty of them.

I was thinking of FCC or TL then? I know one TOC had some 377/2s

 

[D365]

SE need to maintain them not the nonsense that goes on with the 5's trundling backwards and forwards to Selhurst

Nonsense, how so?

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

I was thinking of FCC or TL then? I know one TOC had some 377/2s

Yes. But again, temporarily.

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

Nonsense, how so?

If 377's are moving to SE SE need to maintain them Southern will have to deal with the extra 387s and Hornsey the 379s.

 

[bramling]

Previous posts have suggested that fewer than 30 387s will transfer to Southern, as there will need to be some retained for additional GN services. Is the detail of the actual cascade and who gets what uplift all finalised?

Remember that GN has more than 29 387s as of now. There’s an extra 10 units, made up of one 387/2, the six LTS units, and three GWR units. Presumably one of those is covering ETCS.

If things were to end up 30 379s to GN for 30 387s to Southern, for 30 375s to Southeastern, and more than 30 465s / 466s drop out of the bottom, the cause for rejoicing that seems to have resulted from this news would be rather short lived.

Agreed.

Apparently 377/5s have been having reliability issues recently, to the point Networkers are ironically on extra Maidstone East line diagrams to cover for this.



Does Great Northern have the stabling capacity to allow a significant increase in its fleet size?

On the latter point, kind of. There’s certainly spare berths at Letchworth and Peterborough since Covid, though less so for 12-car trains. And if GN really needed extra space then one presumes it would be feasible to leave units in the platforms at King’s Cross and probably Cambridge bays as well. I’m not so sure about Hornsey.

 

[Doomotron]

Of note is this quote by GTR's Engineering Director (my bold/underlining):

My understanding of this is that the 379's are here to increase capacity and not to enable some sort of complicated cascade (although I would expect some movement of units, just not of the scale or complexity being discussed here).

Of course nothing is confirmed but I do expect some kind of cascade to happen, but to what extent I don't know.

I'm keen to know if Southeastern actually plan to give their 377s their own interior. They put so much work into making the 375s nice inside, but then received the 377/5s and just left them with absolutely filthy green seat covers and Southern blue walls and panels. The 377/1s won't be filthy thanks to the refurbishment, but they will be off brand.

I believe a handful of 377/5s were refreshed just prior to being transferred to Southeastern. I assume there is some problem with the 377s being (as far as I'm aware) subleased from Southern and therefore there may be some limit to what they can do. I'd assume that if the 377s were leased directly they'd probably have had some kind of refresh by now.

Nonsense, how so?

Maintaining a fleet at a depot that isn't theirs which is based on a network that isn't theirs isn't very efficient, but unless someone rebuilds Chart Leacon or converts Hoo Junction into a depot there's not much else they can do.

 

[Magdalia]

GN really needed extra space then one presumes it would be feasible to leave units in the platforms at King’s Cross and probably Cambridge bays as well.

No it would not.

Platforms 9 and 10 at Kings Cross are only vacant 0126-0440 and 0140-0357 respectively.

GA already berth overnight in platforms 2 and 3 at Cambridge to form 0520 and 0550 to Liverpool Street.

There’s certainly spare berths at Letchworth

Are you sure? Letchworth is an overspill for Cambridge which does not have enough space. Letchworth CSD has 7 starters every morning, 3 to Stevenage, 1 each to Letchworth and Royston, and 2 to Cambridge for 0540/0610 to Kings Lynn. The 4 that do not go to Stevenage are all 8 car trains.

I'm fairly sure that Letchworth does not take 12 car trains.

There is no space at Cambridge or Kings Lynn.

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

Of course nothing is confirmed but I do expect some kind of cascade to happen, but to what extent I don't know.

I believe a handful of 377/5s were refreshed just prior to being transferred to Southeastern. I assume there is some problem with the 377s being (as far as I'm aware) subleased from Southern and therefore there may be some limit to what they can do. I'd assume that if the 377s were leased directly they'd probably have had some kind of refresh by now.

Maintaining a fleet at a depot that isn't theirs which is based on a network that isn't theirs isn't very efficient, but unless someone rebuilds Chart Leacon or converts Hoo Junction into a depot there's not much else they can do.

Slade Green looks after 376's so if there are less 465's the 377's can go there. There pretty well the same underneath just need some air con modules!

 

[bramling]

No it would not.

Platforms 9 and 10 at Kings Cross are only vacant 0126-0440 and 0140-0357 respectively.

GA already berth overnight in platforms 2 and 3 at Cambridge to form 0520 and 0550 to Liverpool Street.


Are you sure? Letchworth is an overspill for Cambridge which does not have enough space. Letchworth CSD has 7 starters every morning, 3 to Stevenage, 1 each to Letchworth and Royston, and 2 to Cambridge for 0540/0610 to Kings Lynn. The 4 that do not go to Stevenage are all 8 car trains.

I'm fairly sure that Letchworth does not take 12 car trains.

There is no space at Cambridge or Kings Lynn.

With the rider that this is from memory, IIRC in 2018 Letchworth was stabling

2x 8/700
3x 8/365
1x 8/387
3x 6/313

In the current timetable I think it is

1x 8/700
2x 8/387
3x 6/717

So I make that 3x 8-car berths unused.

In the case of King’s Cross, is there any reason why the main platforms couldn’t be used? LNER do it.

Point taken regarding Cambridge bays, I forgot about GA. How about Hertford North, IIRC only two out of four roads are used there, you could also presumably bring the down siding into use with minimal effort (albeit 6 cars only I think). Clutching at straws here to be fair.

 

[Magdalia]

In the current timetable I think it is

1x 8/700
2x 8/387
3x 6/717

No. There are 4*8 car class 387s for 0455 Letchworth-KX, 0516 Royston-KX and 0540/0610 Cambridge-Kings Lynn.

In the case of King’s Cross, is there any reason why the main platforms couldn’t be used? LNER do it.

You have answered your own question.

 

[pompeyfan]

Richard Clinnick (railway journalist) has tweeted the following which implies there is a deeper cascade planned

https://x.com/clinnick1/status/1768134721387548708?s=46&t=7Exlt27nB2Ru7iZ66Iq0nQ

Having spoken to a ROSCO yesterday about the 379s and being told the deal was nearly done, the deal now HAS seemingly been confirmed. Quite a cascade planned as well, it seems.

 

[Chrisgr31]

Asking from a position of ignorance, where is Southern doing badly? Services have been cut to match the fleet size, which was a near 20% reduction. There don't appear to be more cancellations. Again from a position of ignorance, where are they leaving passengers in the peaks behind as a result?

Presumably no one is planning on the basis of passengers returning to 2020 levels?

My question above is not intended to question that there might be issues. I am asking the question to understand where the particular issues are.

The 6.30ish from Uckfield to LBG and the 18.07 LBG to UCK are often standing room only between Hurst Green and London Bridge and if the train is short formed (as the 6.30ish) which it has been this week then people at Oxted do decide not to board it and wait for the next one.

Obviously additional electric units wont help extend this train but it may mean alternative services can run to reduce pressure on it.

 

[Fincra5]

Richard Clinnick (railway journalist) has tweeted the following which implies there is a deeper cascade planned

https://x.com/clinnick1/status/1768134721387548708?s=46&t=7Exlt27nB2Ru7iZ66Iq0nQ

There is aye.

 

[bramling]

No. There are 4*8 car class 387s for 0455 Letchworth-KX, 0516 Royston-KX and 0540/0610 Cambridge-Kings Lynn.

This isn’t the case. Currently 5R01 is 8/700 and 5R03 is 8/387. This just leaves 5T02 which is 8/387. Everything else out of Letchworth is 717.

2T00 comes from Cambridge sidings.

Same in the forthcoming timetable as well.

You have answered your own question.

LNER only stable 2 or 3 trains there. Certainly not the whole station, or anything close.

 

[jon0844]

I've heard a rumour that GN is keeping the GWR 387s, but not sure if that's keeping ONLY those, or keeping those as well as some others.

 

[Magdalia]

2T00 comes from Cambridge sidings.

Not this week, which is what I looked at.

Realtime Trains | 5T00 0504 Letchworth C.S.D to Cambridge | 14/03/2024

Real-time train running information for 5T00 0504 departure from Letchworth C.S.D to Cambridge on 14/03/2024. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

5T00 0504 Letchworth C.S.D to Cambridge

There has to be some flexibility in where trains berth because of the regular weeknight engineering possessions. Kings Cross is a good example, there will be weeknights where only a few platforms will be accessible because of engineering blocks. If there is a block on the fast lines at Holloway, then only platforms 7-10 are accessible, and the base timetable has to be constrained to that.

It is rare that a weeknight follows the base timetable without any amendments, and it is not possible to assume that, because a platform or siding has nothing booked to berth in it, that it is available for berthing as part of the base timetable.

 

[bramling]

Not this week.

Realtime Trains | 5T00 0504 Letchworth C.S.D to Cambridge | 14/03/2024

Real-time train running information for 5T00 0504 departure from Letchworth C.S.D to Cambridge on 14/03/2024. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

There has to be some flexibility in where trains berth because of the regular weeknight engineering possessions. Kings Cross is a good example, there will be weeknights where only a few platforms will be accessible because of engineering blocks.

It is rare that a weeknight follows the base timetable without any amendments, and it is not possible to assume that, because a platform or siding has nothing booked to berth in it, that it is available for berthing as part of the base timetable.

This may be the case, however the fact is in May 2018 Letchworth was routinely stabling nine 6 or 8 car
trains trains, when now the long-term plan has only six. What has changed in that time is the loss of the Baldock services and of course the 365s.

The original question about stabling space on GN relates to whether there’s space for extra units relative to what we have now, clearly there is given we are about ten units down on 2018, and in that time Cambridge Sidings has been rebuilt and an extra siding built at Kings Lynn.

 

[Goldfish62]

A rare sensible and positive decision for today's railways! The 379s are superior to the 387s in terms of passenger comfort.

 

[bramling]

A rare sensible and positive decision for today's railways! The 379s are superior to the 387s in terms of passenger comfort.

We are all making the assumption that they will enter GN service in their current state! Has anything been officially stated about this?