GTR should reinstate more services on their Southern branded routes

[physics34]

Moderator note: Split from

Great Northern Fleet Tender

Thameslink Great Northern have gone out to tender for rolling stock, presumably in the same way that GWR recently did. https://www.delta-esourcing.com/delta/respondToList.html;jsessionid=ED4AA4A5CB38596F97120B5F345FD0F2?noticeId=777675000 Provision of a fleet of between 21, and up to 30 x...

www.railforums.co.uk

It is intended that Southern is going to increase services in December... but how much is not known right now, but this will need a net increase of units.. But who knows if that is 4 units or 104 units?

Personally, I think peak Cat/Tatt to Vic peak service urgently need reinstating, as do evening Vic to West Croydons, and all day London Bridge to East Croydon stoppers (this last one is on the cards anyway, I hear?)

 

[JonathanH]

Personally, i think peak Cat/Tatt to vic peak service urgently need reinstating

Why? Are there overcrowding issues on either branch? It seems somewhat unlikely, and changing at Purley or East Croydon is hardly a hardship.

Where new services are introduced on top of the existing timetable, it might be imagines that it would be where there are genuine issues of people being left behind and a suitable business case for introducing them.

 

[physics34]

Why? Are there overcrowding issues on either branch? It seems somewhat unlikely, and changing at Purley or East Croydon is hardly a hardship.

Where new services are introduced on top of the existing timetable, it might be imagines that it would be where there are genuine issues of people being left behind and a suitable business case for introducing them.

Would probably only need to be 3 trains per day (think it was 5 previously).... caterham and tatt people who need victoria have had direct sevices for many years up until COVID. The workings to LB currently get very heavy... including at purley, purley oaks and south croydon. Purley and purley oaks have their Vic services halved atPeak times since covid... yes Purley oaks people have sanderstead, coulsdon town people have coulsdon south and Whyteleafe have Upper Warlingham, but they are heaving. Its been mentio ed on twitter than people are working from home rather than travelling because of the crowding

 

[London Trains]

Personally, i think peak Cat/Tatt to vic peak service urgently need reinstating, as do evening Vic to West Croydons and all day London Bridge to East Croydon stoppers (this last one is on the cards anyway i hear?).

Agree with all of those, as well as reinstating the fast Victoria to Dorking/Horsham services throughout the day which is really needed.

 

[physics34]

Agree with all of those, as well as reinstating the fast Victoria to Dorking/Horsham services throughout the day which is really needed.

Yep... and theyd only need to be 4 car

 

[London Trains]

Yep... and theyd only need to be 4 car

That's definitely not true, most of the time they definitely need 8/10 coaches north of Dorking.

If utilising as few units as possible is so important then they may as well just copy the Redhill to Tonbridge situation and make Dorking to Horsham an hourly shuttle using a single 3 car 377.

 

[JonathanH]

That's definitely not true, most of the time they definitely need 8/10 coaches north of Dorking.

Dorking? Are you saying that there are trains leaving Dorking with standing passengers throughout the day?

 

[London Trains]

Dorking? Are you saying that there are trains leaving Dorking with standing passengers throughout the day?

No obviously not, but those trains need to be 8/10 coaches as they were very busy closer to London.

Those fast services were much more popular than the slower service to Epsom (particularly to Carshalton/Sutton/Cheam) and the Dorking/Horsham fasts and the Epsom slows interworked so they can't be different lengths anyway (unless you do some very complicated splitting and joining at Victoria).

 

[physics34]

That's definitely not true, most of the time they definitely need 8/10 coaches north of Dorking.

If utilising as few units as possible is so important then they may as well just copy the Redhill to Tonbridge situation and make Dorking to Horsham an hourly shuttle using a single 3 car 377.

*off peak

 

[Baji]

Yep... and theyd only need to be 4 car

It is intended that Southern is going to increase services in December... but how much is not known right now, but this will need a net increase of units.. but who knows if that is 4 units or 104 units

Personally, i think peak Cat/Tatt to vic peak service urgently need reinstating, as do evening Vic to West Croydons and all day London Bridge to East Croydon stoppers (this last one is on the cards anyway i hear?).

Unless southern decides to run rotational services where 2tph run every other hour.
0925, 0955
1125, 1155
1325, 1355
1525, 1555

 

[Baji]

Agree with all of those, as well as reinstating the fast Victoria to Dorking/Horsham services throughout the day which is really needed.

Imagine if they introduce a new additional London Victoria to Dorking via West Croydon (fast service) that calls at Clapham junction, Balham, west Croydon, wallington, Sutton, Cheam, Epsom, Ashtead, Leatherhead and Dorking.

 

[JonathanH]

Imagine if they introduce a new additional London Victoria to Dorking via West Croydon (fast service) that calls at Clapham junction, Balham, west Croydon, wallington, Sutton, Cheam, Epsom, Ashtead, Leatherhead and Dorking.

Going from London Victoria via West Croydon to Sutton isn't fast, relative to journey times via Mitcham, and there is already a train to London Bridge via West Croydon from Epsom that provides the link from the stations you list to Croydon and Wallington.

 

[PGAT]

Also timings would be tricky trying to find a path at West Croydon, Gloucester Road Junction and the crossover to the fast line

 

[JonathanH]

Also timings would be tricky trying to find a path at West Croydon, Gloucester Road Junction and the crossover to the fast line

A stop at Balham on the fast line wouldn't be very helpful, well at least not unless all fast line trains stopped there, or stops could be flighted with those at Clapham Junction.

 

[PGAT]

A stop at Balham on the fast line wouldn't be very helpful, well at least not unless all fast line trains stopped there, or stops could be flighted with those at Clapham Junction.

Yeah Selhurst would be better (totally not biased) as trains would have to slow down to 15mph anyway

 

[Recessio]

I occasionally do Cheam to Victoria AM commute and there can definitely be no seats left before we even reach Croydon, especially on days with bad weather. More services to Dorking would be great.

 

[JonathanH]

I occasionally do Cheam to Victoria AM commute and there can definitely be no seats left before we even reach Croydon, especially on days with bad weather.

But surely that is to be expected. Trains only have 60 seats per carriage now when they used to have 80 or 100. Some passengers have to stand. It is the nature of modern rolling stock.

 

[Minstral25]

Moderator note: Split from

Great Northern Fleet Tender

Thameslink Great Northern have gone out to tender for rolling stock, presumably in the same way that GWR recently did. https://www.delta-esourcing.com/delta/respondToList.html;jsessionid=ED4AA4A5CB38596F97120B5F345FD0F2?noticeId=777675000 Provision of a fleet of between 21, and up to 30 x...

www.railforums.co.uk

It is intended that Southern is going to increase services in December... but how much is not known right now, but this will need a net increase of units.. But who knows if that is 4 units or 104 units?

Personally, I think peak Cat/Tatt to Vic peak service urgently need reinstating, as do evening Vic to West Croydons, and all day London Bridge to East Croydon stoppers (this last one is on the cards anyway, I hear?)

I suspect that reality is that there will be a few additions in terms of new services or even replacement services for those lost over Covid. There was a big rethink of services after Covid which has resulted in a lot of simplification and a lot of the services like Cat/Tatt to Victoria (peak or otherwise) have probably now disappeared for ever.

I suspect the changes will be mostly London based Metro increase with reinstatement of services that were taken out, like half hourly on East Grinstead line, or extra trains along Epsom/Dorking route etc. but without adding what will now be new routes such as Vic to Cat/Tatt.

Yes, there are a few specific trains on Southern network that are very full but generally most routes have adequate service. A full train at Peak time with standing 2 or 3 days a week does not mean a whole raft of extra services are needed. There will be a new look to changes too such as the change to the Littlehampton to London Bridge service, which is now withdrawn on Fridays, where the aim is to save unnecessary cost.

 

[Thebaz]

Going from London Victoria via West Croydon to Sutton isn't fast, relative to journey times via Mitcham, and there is already a train to London Bridge via West Croydon from Epsom that provides the link from the stations you list to Croydon and Wallington.

Quite! Victoria to Sutton used to take 21mins on the fast when it ran via the Streatham North spur. I was once on a train that was accidentally mis-routed down the fasts at said junction and thereafter ran fast to Sutton via West Croydon. Although we had a clearish run we still arrived at Sutton 10mins late so that gives a good indication how pointless it would be to run fasts down this route as standard.

I wonder out loud though if there might be the option to extend the LBG-Epsoms to Dorking and Horsham but I suspect a quick look at the SWR timetable will reveal an answer to the contrary....

 

[PGAT]

I wonder out loud though if there might be the option to extend the LBG-Epsoms to Dorking and Horsham but I suspect a quick look at the SWR timetable will reveal an answer to the contrary.

That option existed pre-covid when they ran to Dorking and Guildford

 

[Thebaz]

...actually having looked at the standard off-peak pattern this would work in theory at least as far as Dorking - [gets crayons out] eg service from LBG arr. at Epsom at xx38, so dep xx40 and arr. Dorking by xx56. 6 min turnaround to get back to Epsom for the xx15 dep to LBG. Extending fast to Horsham arr. xx14 would leave an impossible 2 min turnaround or a 32min one. Or you could [gets extra special crayons out] just keep extending it (nice empty slot halfway between Bognor and So'ton trains on the Arun Valley route) until you hit Littlehampton. It would pass Arundel Jcn around xx43 and there's nothing in or near that slot, ergo... So it's just a question of stock, crew, a bit of luck and a lot of energon.

 

[PGAT]

In all seriousness though, I do believe extending the London Bridge services to Dorking does have some merit since SWR have rolling stock issues. Perhaps the 1tph from Dorking to Waterloo could be rerouted to Effingham Junction to free up space in Dorking and there would be a 5 min interchange towards Guildford and a 10 min interchange time from Guildford

 

[JonathanH]

In all seriousness though, I do believe extending the London Bridge services to Dorking does have some merit since SWR have rolling stock issues.

Historically the Dorking services have run to Victoria but those are now stoppers north of Sutton. Would it appease those looking for a faster journey to London for Dorking / Horsham trains to run to London Bridge and Epsom terminators to run to Victoria?

 

[Sad Sprinter]

Agree with OP. There's still too many half hourly services on the Metro network which need to be increased again. Same with South Eastern and their half hourly Victoria to Orpington service.

 

[PGAT]

Historically the Dorking services have run to Victoria but those are now stoppers north of Sutton. Would it appease those looking for a faster journey to London for Dorking / Horsham trains to run to London Bridge and Epsom terminators to run to Victoria?

I’d say so, since London Bridge is now busier than Victoria when accounting for interchanges and it has better onward travel options. It also means on the Hackbridge line there’s more opportunity for evening out the service and removing the 4/26 minute gaps with Thameslink, and in the peak, with 4tph from Victoria to Epsom, it feels like a more intensive metro service.

 

[London Trains]

In all seriousness though, I do believe extending the London Bridge services to Dorking does have some merit since SWR have rolling stock issues. Perhaps the 1tph from Dorking to Waterloo could be rerouted to Effingham Junction to free up space in Dorking and there would be a 5 min interchange towards Guildford and a 10 min interchange time from Guildford

I'd swap that around - extend the London Bridge to Epsom services to Guildford (all stops apart from Horsley and Clandon), and divert all SWR services to Dorking. This has the added benefit of providing a direct link from Guildford to Croydon and Sutton.

 

[devon_belle]

I commute on the Horsham – Victoria via Dorking trains, though rarely the peak service. My observation is that the trains only really become busy after Epsom. On the way to London, seats become scarce at Sutton. Almost invariable every seat is taken by Hackbridge.

In the evening commute out of Victoria, there are almost always seats in the 8/10 cars (at the front, anyway), which fill up to standing at Clapham Junction. The trains noticeably empty out at Mitcham Eastfields, Carshalton and Cheam. By Dorking the trains are practically empty (no wonder, it's an hour from London!). When I travel on weekends or midday the patterns are noticeable different, with significant flow to/from Epsom and Balham.

I should note that before the 08:xx off Horsham was strengthened to 8 cars, we would run out of seats as early as Epsom. The 4 car evening trains (after, say, 8 pm) off Victoria can be a nightmare at first, filling up with standing passengers at Clapham and Balham.

I think Boxhill gets a far better service than it deserves. I don't think Horsham–Dorking deserves more trains, but they should be faster to London to entice customers back to the railway. The ideal situation would be separating the Epsom stoppers out again, and giving the Horsham trains fewer stops (as opposed to the Dorking ones). SWR should be able to cater for stations like Boxhill if they bring back more services to Dorking. During engineering works a few months ago, I noted that Victoria-Epsom-Horsham took about 45 minutes. I think something that did Victoria-Clapham-(Balham?)-Sutton-Cheam-Epsom-then all stops except Boxhill would work well. Obviously, I know nothing about whether this fits within the timetable.

A lot of time could be saved on the Up trains too. Up to 7 mins at Dorking, a few mins of dwell at stations en route, then as many as 8 mins outside Victoria. The 08:xx off Horsham is booked into Victoria at 09:49 but routinely arrives at 09:41. Lots of angry muttering from the commuters! My Down journey is currently 8 mins faster than the Up.

Ranting over, hope this helps give perspective. More / faster trains please, GTR!

 

[JonathanH]

This has the added benefit of providing a direct link from Guildford to Croydon and Sutton.

Is that direct link going to lead to any the extra custom that justifies putting such a service on again?

On the way to London, seats become scarce at Sutton. Almost invariable every seat is taken by Hackbridge.

Sounds about right then. 60 seated and around 40 to 50 standing is the loading factor that trains should be at as they approach London because that is how the trains have been designed to have fewer seats than their predecessors and more standing space. Network South East used to work on a loading factor of 135% for trains with power doors that had 80 seats in a carriage. That is 80 seated and around 30 standing.

 

[PGAT]

I'd swap that around - extend the London Bridge to Epsom services to Guildford (all stops apart from Horsley and Clandon), and divert all SWR services to Dorking. This has the added benefit of providing a direct link from Guildford to Croydon and Sutton.

That sounds like the worst option imo. What would serve Horsham? Also Dorking would have a service downgrade from 3tph and lose its direct links to Sutton and Victoria. Looking at the flow stats, any potential gain for Guildford is far outweighed by the loss for Dorking

During engineering works a few months ago, I noted that Victoria-Epsom-Horsham took about 45 minutes. I think something that did Victoria-Clapham-(Balham?)-Sutton-Cheam-Epsom-then all stops except Boxhill would work well. Obviously, I know nothing about whether this fits within the timetable.

The pattern you are describing was the normal timetable until September 2022 so it's technically doable, but would require the return of the off-peak Epsom stoppers which we may never see again. At present the only other option for speeding up the service is removing Boxhill which saves about 90 seconds.

 

[London Trains]

That sounds like the worst option imo. What would serve Horsham? Also Dorking would have a service downgrade from 3tph and lose its direct links to Sutton and Victoria. Looking at the flow stats, any potential gain for Guildford is far outweighed by the loss for Dorking

I think you're a bit confused - there wouldn't be any change to the existing Victoria to Dorking/Horsham services (apart from restoring the old Victoria to Epsom slow and making the Dorking/Horsham service fast again), I'm only suggesting the London Bridge to Epsom service is extended to Guildford and the Waterloo to Guildford is diverted to Dorking.