Great Northern Fleet - 379s

[LA50041]

It was suggested elsewhere that all 39 would go to Southern, allowing a similar amount of 377/1s to join Southeastern,

I'm not sure where that was stated, but it certainly wont be that many.
The last I saw internally was there are 20 diagrams that will be converted to 387/1 and a maximum of 17 377/1 to transfer to Southeastern

 

[jon0844]

We are all making the assumption that they will enter GN service in their current state! Has anything been officially stated about this?

I can't imagine the DfT wanting to fund anything too dramatic. Depending on their state and when they last got a refresh, I'd expect maybe a deep clean or new seat covering/carpeting and perhaps the 377/387 upgrades of colour screens and upgraded power sockets.

And they could be brought into service before any of that happens (bar a deep clean perhaps and the appropriate vinyls, route maps etc).

 

[Fincra5]

I can't imagine the DfT wanting to fund anything too dramatic. Depending on their state and when they last got a refresh, I'd expect maybe a deep clean or new seat covering/carpeting and perhaps the 377/387 upgrades of colour screens and upgraded power sockets.

And they could be brought into service before any of that happens (bar a deep clean perhaps and the appropriate vinyls, route maps etc).

There will be some works before they entire service not 100% on the complete works but they'd definitely be deep cleaned and GN Branded.

 

[Goldfish62]

I can't imagine the DfT wanting to fund anything too dramatic. Depending on their state and when they last got a refresh, I'd expect maybe a deep clean or new seat covering/carpeting and perhaps the 377/387 upgrades of colour screens and upgraded power sockets.

And they could be brought into service before any of that happens (bar a deep clean perhaps and the appropriate vinyls, route maps etc).

Agreed. The interiors were starting to look a bit tired so a thorough deep clean would suffice, with retrimmed seats later.

 

[brad465]

I'm not sure where that was stated, but it certainly wont be that many.
The last I saw internally was there are 20 diagrams that will be converted to 387/1 and a maximum of 17 377/1 to transfer to Southeastern

If it were those numbers it sounds like Southern won't get a lot, when arguably they're the ones who most need the stock. Unless there is a plan to utilise spare 700s on more Southern diagrams.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

A rare sensible and positive decision for today's railways! The 379s are superior to the 387s in terms of passenger comfort.

But someone else will get to enjoy the 387s...
The positive (assuming it eventually happens) will be the elimination of some of the Networker fleet south of the Thames.

 

[Goldfish62]

But someone else will get to enjoy the 387s...

They'll be fine for dawdling around south London.

 

[ScotGG]

But someone else will get to enjoy the 387s...
The positive (assuming it eventually happens) will be the elimination of some of the Networker fleet south of the Thames.

Not if it results in less capacity. The plan also seems to be remove the Networkers in good condition internally (465/9s) but keep those in a rancid state (/0 and /1s) with no confirmed plans for refurbishment or replacement.

 

[hwl]

all day London Bridge to East Croydon stoppers (this last one is on the cards anyway i hear?).

It is.

The core issue is that all those services are short distance metro ones that are theoretically less profitable (or rather more loss making) than longer distance southern ones so harder to a make case for reinstatement...

 

[PGAT]

The core issue is that all those services are short distance metro ones that are theoretically less profitable (or rather more loss making) than longer distance southern ones so harder to a make case for reinstatement...

Not really. If we assume the scenario where Southern lose 17 units and gain 20 units for a net 3 increase, that’s 3 extra 4 car trains in the peak to London Bridge which would easily be filled

 

[hwl]

Not really. If we assume the scenario where Southern lose 17 units and gain 20 units for a net 3 increase, that’s 3 extra 4 car trains in the peak to London Bridge which would easily be filled

They need to be a lot longer than 4car though.

 

[Bikeman78]

379014 and 379023 were certainly still in traffic on 14/1/22. I had both of them for moves that day.

I've gone through old texts. A 379 worked 1H87 06xx King's Lynn to Liverpool Street and 1H00 0833 to Cambridge on Friday 11th February 2022. As far as I know, that was the last passenger run. They pretty much finished when the service was reduced for the Omicron variant. When the service ramped up again mid February it was covered by 317s.

 

[317 forever]

Especially as the 387s are directly derived from the 379s

I even wonder if they could be renumbered into the 387 series, possibly 387/4xx ?

 

[387gwr]

What are the differences between 379s and 387s? They look pretty similar to me.

 

[pokemonsuper9]

What are the differences between 379s and 387s? They look pretty similar to me.

387s are dual voltage, 379s aren't

Not sure of the other differences

 

[Robski_]

What are the differences between 379s and 387s? They look pretty similar to me.

They run on different and incompatible train management systems (TMS).

 

[hwl]

What are the differences between 379s and 387s? They look pretty similar to me.

387s are dual voltage, 379s aren't

Not sure of the other differences

387s have ASDO and CSDE (developed by southern for 377) 379s don't.

 

[D365]

Does the Kings Lynn run require ASDO for 8 car trains to be operated?

 

[Doomotron]

387s are dual voltage, 379s aren't

Not sure of the other differences

And they have completely different interiors, and can only run at 100mph.

 

[Robski_]

Does the Kings Lynn run require ASDO for 8 car trains to be operated?

Yes, ASDO is needed for Shepreth, Meldreth, Littleport and Watlington (max. 4 coaches). Only the latter two are served by Kings Lynn trains - the other two are served by the Cambridge stopper.

 

[brad465]

Presumably if they're to remain 8 car throughout a journey, they'd be limited to Ely terminators that run fast to/from KGX-Cambridge, Peterborough services and peak extras that don't involve the stations with shorter than 8 car platforms (unless plans also exist to lengthen them). Does splitting at Cambridge for Kings Lynn trains still happen regularly?

 

[hwl]

Presumably if they're to remain 8 car throughout a journey, they'd be limited to Ely terminators that run fast to/from KGX-Cambridge, Peterborough services and peak extras that don't involve the stations with shorter than 8 car platforms (unless plans also exist to lengthen them). Does splitting at Cambridge for Kings Lynn trains still happen regularly?

Or just retrofit ASDO and CSDE as Southern did with the older 377s (and SWT did with 458s).

The original slightly naïve 379 ROSCO was penny pinching and didn't want to pay for it.

 

[aleggatta]

Realistically, making the 379s compatible for multiple working with 387s would only mean a series of mods to bring them up to spec, not a complete redesign of the train. They already have the same DOO camera system, fitment of ASDO will likely be just to fit the beacon on the underside of the train and a software patch. The hardware on these trains is essentially identical, with the same wire train bus and train wires. The only real choice would be what to do with the seat reservation system (probably mothball) and what to do with the livery.

 

[Energy]

Or just retrofit ASDO and CSDE as Southern did with the older 377s (and SWT did with 458s).

The original slightly naïve 379 ROSCO was penny pinching and didn't want to pay for it.

Don't electrostars let you just select one unit?

 

[Galvanize]

Presumably if they're to remain 8 car throughout a journey, they'd be limited to Ely terminators that run fast to/from KGX-Cambridge, Peterborough services and peak extras that don't involve the stations with shorter than 8 car platforms (unless plans also exist to lengthen them). Does splitting at Cambridge for Kings Lynn trains still happen regularly?

On Tuesday-Thursday midweek peak hours and various trains at weekends yes!

 

[Magdalia]

Presumably if they're to remain 8 car throughout a journey, they'd be limited to Ely terminators that run fast to/from KGX-Cambridge

No. Waterbeach takes 8 car trains and Cambridge North 12 cars.

Does splitting at Cambridge for Kings Lynn trains still happen regularly?

Yes. Various trains are booked 12 cars south of Cambridge.

Don't electrostars let you just select one unit?

That's adequate for GN operation.

ASDO is needed for Shepreth, Meldreth, Littleport and Watlington (max. 4 coaches).

All of the short platforms are 4 cars in length, and Foxton needs to be added to this list. Meldreth and Watlington are both directions, Shepreth, Foxton and Littleport are all up side only, having been lengthened on the down side so as not to obstruct level crossings.

 

[Snow1964]

Asking from a position of ignorance, where is Southern doing badly? Services have been cut to match the fleet size, which was a near 20% reduction. There don't appear to be more cancellations.

ORR produces quarterly figures, and Oct-Dec are being published this coming week. But using latest (per link) let's put some hard numbers on this.

https://dataportal.orr.gov.uk/media/bbrpxkon/passenger-rail-usage-jul-sep-2023.pdf

As there is talk of transfe some units from Govia Thameslink Railway to South Eastern, quoting both figures for reference

Passenger journeys (table 1) GTR 69.3m, SouthEast 31.4m
Passenger vehicle Km (table 5.1) GTR 108.0m, SE 59.5m
Train Km (table 4.1) GTR 13.2m SE 7.7m

simply dividing vehicle Km by train Km gives average train length

Then using the pre pandemic July-Sep 2019 from ORR tables 1223, 1253, 1243 respectively

Passenger journeys GTR 89.9m, SE 45.3m
Passenger Vehicle km GTR 142.9m, SE 66.8m
Train km GTR 17.8m, SE 9.1m


So for Thameslink passengers are at 77%, vehicle km 76%
For South Eastern passengers are at 69%, vehicle km 69%

Unfotunately there is no breakdown between Great Northern, Southern and Thameslink


Here are the Oct-Dec 2019 figures so can compare when new figures come out this week
Passenger journeys GTR 92.5m, SE 47.3m
passenger vehicle Km 139.0m, SE 64.2m
Train Km GTR 17.2m, SE 8.8m

 

[Sutton in Ant]

I want to say that I think that Great Northern has done a great deal in securing the 379s. But, there is something that I have been getting my head around for a long time, and that is other people on this site are saying that Southern doesn't need any more rolling stock and that Southeastern Railway needs more rolling stock than Southern. I understand that people are entitled to their views and I respect that. I have researched the fleet sizes of Southern Railway to Southeastern Railway, which may surprise you. I went to Wikipedia to count the fleet sizes and this is the result I came up with.

Fleet sizes. Southeastern Railway. 395, Southern Railway 235. On these statistics that would mean that Southeastern Railway fleet size is 160 Fleets more than Southern.

I do understand that Southeastern Railway is looking to get rid of the networkers which are in horrible condition. I rode on the Networkers and their toilets are disgusting and the Networkers sound old.

Southern Railway has lost 46 455s which has not been replaced and lost 19 313s which has not been replaced.

Railway travel has been going up since COVID-19. I will say that it is Southern that needs more Rolling Stock. I just think it is nonsense that people on this website are saying that Southern Railway doesn't need any more rolling stock. Southern saying that their services are increasing. That is where additional rolling stock is needed.

Southeastern (train operating company) - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Southern (Govia Thameslink Railway) - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[bramling]

Presumably if they're to remain 8 car throughout a journey, they'd be limited to Ely terminators that run fast to/from KGX-Cambridge, Peterborough services and peak extras that don't involve the stations with shorter than 8 car platforms (unless plans also exist to lengthen them). Does splitting at Cambridge for Kings Lynn trains still happen regularly?

On the latter point, no. Everything north of Cambridge is 8-car nowadays. However a small handful of peak service attach or detach a unit at Cambridge to make 12 cars between Cambridge and London. The current timetable is pretty efficient in that they have managed to arrange things so there aren’t any contra-peak 12 cars, they entire detach a unit at King’s Cross or the whole 12-car train goes to Hornsey and is replaced by an 8-car off something else.

I want to say that I think that Great Northern has done a great deal in securing the 379s. But, there is something that I have been getting my head around for a long time, and that is other people on this site are saying that Southern doesn't need any more rolling stock and that Southeastern Railway needs more rolling stock than Southern. I understand that people are entitled to their views and I respect that. I have researched the fleet sizes of Southern Railway to Southeastern Railway, which may surprise you. I went to Wikipedia to count the fleet sizes and this is the result I came up with.

Fleet sizes. Southeastern Railway. 395, Southern Railway 235. On these statistics that would mean that Southeastern Railway fleet size is 160 Fleets more than Southern.

I do understand that Southeastern Railway is looking to get rid of the networkers which are in horrible condition. I rode on the Networkers and their toilets are disgusting and the Networkers sound old.

Southern Railway has lost 46 455s which has not been replaced and lost 19 313s which has not been replaced.

Railway travel has been going up since COVID-19. I will say that it is Southern that needs more Rolling Stock. I just think it is nonsense that people on this website are saying that Southern Railway doesn't need any more rolling stock. Southern saying that their services are increasing. That is where additional rolling stock is needed.

I tend to agree with this. As you say, Southern has lost the 313 and 455 fleets with no replacement, whilst Great Northern has lost the 365 fleet with minimal replacement. Southeastern has so far lost the 465/2 fleet, but gained the 707 fleet.

It isn’t really great to be bragging about extra units if a proportion of them are seeing off the Met Camm 465s. This isn’t really a benefit for the passenger, it’s more cost saving.

 

[gabrielhj07]

Southeastern Railway fleet size is 160 Fleets more than Southern.

I happen to agree with you, but comparing fleet sizes alone can't be that useful.