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great western electrification

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Nym

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Starrymarkb, under my planns they will need to last until 2025, not 2035...

Basically, the LDPE passenger diesel stock requirement is sorted when HS2a opens, provided it includes electrified 125 access from Birmingham Delta to the ECML and the stock is specified with a loco to haul it.

The reigonal stock issue is a bigger issue, especially with current growth levels, and increased feeder traffic when HS2 does happen.

HS2b will allow the retirement of even more LDPE Electric stock that by that point will be life expired, namely the Class 91 Electra sets.
 
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The Planner

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They probablly set the times for 150s so they could be used if required, or there are certain diagrams timetabled for 150s. However, as LNW-GW Joint says there is quite a lot of sections on the main line routes where faster linespeeds are available, so if a 150 can keep time a 158 or 175 will be early.

Nope, timed as 158s, the reason 150s probably aren't losing significant amounts of time is that they are using up the engineering recovery allowance in the schedules, there is 3 minutes of that between Maindee and Sutton Bridge.
 

paul1609

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Recently Network Rail submitted a planning proposal to build a new maintenence and servicing facility at Swansea for the new Bi-Mode IEPs that will stable there overnight.

Fine, good idea.

However I suspect that they will have to also erect a few yards of OHLE so that they can check and maintain the electric equipment. It would be rather embarrassing if a Bi-Mode train failed the next day when running under electric traction to have to give the excuse "Well, we are sorry that we could only check the diesel equipment last night as we were stabled at Swansea".

If dual mode gets the go-ahead I reckon its only a matter of time before the electrification gets cut back to Bristol.
Whatever NR says it will be very expensive to electrify the severn tunnel reliably and electrification wont give significant time savings west of Parkway.



 

HSTEd

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If dual mode gets the go-ahead I reckon its only a matter of time before the electrification gets cut back to Bristol.
Whatever NR says it will be very expensive to electrify the severn tunnel reliably and electrification wont give significant time savings west of Parkway.





Arent we desperately in need of a second severn rail crossing anyway? The Severn tunnels is insanely overcapacity as it is.
 

Nym

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And electrifying it will mean that freight can move through it faster, as can passenger stock, and 319s can run the locals rather than sprinters.
 

ainsworth74

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If dual mode gets the go-ahead I reckon its only a matter of time before the electrification gets cut back to Bristol.

Happily there remain rather large question marks over the Bi-mode IEP what with TOCs not being particularly happy with it and it's business case apparently being in danger of being undone by just £40m in stabling costs.
 

paul1609

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And electrifying it will mean that freight can move through it faster, as can passenger stock, and 319s can run the locals rather than sprinters.
As I understand it the speed is unlikely to increase because of the rail conditions through the tunnel.
There are no freight flows that could be electrified and the local service is likely to still be a through service from Portsmouth Harbour and so diesel.




--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Happily there remain rather large question marks over the Bi-mode IEP what with TOCs not being particularly happy with it and it's business case apparently being in danger of being undone by just £40m in stabling costs.
You could probably improve the business case by having an all bimode fleet for Great Western and electrifying only to Bristol.



 

bnm

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And electrifying it will mean that freight can move through it faster, as can passenger stock, and 319s can run the locals rather than sprinters.

Locals from Cardiff through the tunnel run to either Taunton (few extended to Exeter or Paignton) or Portsmouth. Both those routes will still require DMUs post electrification of the GWML. Some modest time savings may be had with the possibility of better accelerating 165/166s should they be cascaded westward, but I don't foresee much in the way of speed increases in the tunnel that will be a boost to line capacity.
 

WatcherZero

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As I understand it only light over night servicing will take place, most of the work will happen at the main maintence facility.
 

Gareth Marston

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Shows how poorly thought through bi mode is. The early part of the day sees HST's sweeping out of Landore at 30 min frequencies and the evening from Cardiff in reverse direction. As has been pointed out in Modern Railways the Con/Dems have said they don't want over prescriptive franchises - which is exactly what buying Bi Mode will mean and they don't want PFI deals anymore - which is exactly whats been planned for bi -mode. Something will have to give.

Theres 2 tph from Bristol to Cardiff. The Portsmouth secondary Intercity and the local all stations from the other side of Bristol. West of Swansea in addition to InterCity there is an hourly semi fast to Swansea and West Wales and the Swanline trains plus Measteg locals. Easy enough to chop and change service patterns to give a Swansea to Bath electric service making the wires viable.
 

route:oxford

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Aren't we desperately in need of a second severn rail crossing anyway? The Severn tunnels is insanely overcapacity as it is.

Yes, it's would be called the "Severn Barrage".

Generating a reliable source of "green" electricity with 2 high speed rail tracks going over the top.
 

anthony263

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Yes, it's would be called the "Severn Barrage".

Generating a reliable source of "green" electricity with 2 high speed rail tracks going over the top.

I think it was stupid why they dropped it could certainly do with it now with all the jobs it would create.



As for the wires west of Cardiff a Swansea to Bath local service which would replace the Swansea - Cardiff swanline service would be a very good idea. I wouldn't mind a trip up skewen bank on a class 319
 

Gareth Marston

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Nope, timed as 158s, the reason 150s probably aren't losing significant amounts of time is that they are using up the engineering recovery allowance in the schedules, there is 3 minutes of that between Maindee and Sutton Bridge.

Yeah if you get a good run the 175's arrive early along the Marches more often than not. When you get a 150 substitution they usually stick it on a Holyhead so they can swap with a 175 off Chester depot at Chester. Been on time on 150 a few times up the Marches.
 

DXMachina

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As I understand it the speed is unlikely to increase because of the rail conditions through the tunnel.
There are no freight flows that could be electrified and the local service is likely to still be a through service from Portsmouth Harbour and so diesel.

Plenty of possibility for bi-mode freight locomotives. The price of diesel is going to continue to climb faster than the price of electricity, it'll be worthwhile eventually....
 

ChiefPlanner

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Shows how poorly thought through bi mode is. The early part of the day sees HST's sweeping out of Landore at 30 min frequencies and the evening from Cardiff in reverse direction. As has been pointed out in Modern Railways the Con/Dems have said they don't want over prescriptive franchises - which is exactly what buying Bi Mode will mean and they don't want PFI deals anymore - which is exactly whats been planned for bi -mode. Something will have to give.

Theres 2 tph from Bristol to Cardiff. The Portsmouth secondary Intercity and the local all stations from the other side of Bristol. West of Swansea in addition to InterCity there is an hourly semi fast to Swansea and West Wales and the Swanline trains plus Measteg locals. Easy enough to chop and change service patterns to give a Swansea to Bath electric service making the wires viable.

Could not agree with you more....well said !
 

swtandgw

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Bi-mode Voyagers and Meridians would be just fine for west country services, any life-extended HST's should be a very short-term measure and shouldnt be on the GWML after electrification.

Chris
Especially considering the fact that the HSTs would run under the wires from Paddington to Newbury. Would make a lot more environmental and economical sense if EDMUs are used instead of the diesel-only HSTs.
 

DXMachina

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its the big paradox isnt it?
Operationally and environmentally everyone prefers all-electric and full-route electrification

But Bi-modes will be cleaner, even if not cheaper, on part-electrified routes

And if you build enough of them you can use the differential cost between their diesel and electric modes as firm evidence for electrification decisions by pointing out that certain routes can be electrified without the additional expense of new stock..

Either IEP is a full HST replacement plan or it isn't. Talk of keeping HSTs for some routes can only be a stop-gap unless they're intended to be rebuilt for DDA compliance.
 

The Planner

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Is the tunnel struggling though ?? you can technically stick 12 trains an hour through it providing there isn't dangerous goods knocking about. There were plans many moons ago to make the tunnel 90mph for passenger traffic. Ever wondered why the M4 bridge is so wide ?? that was so Severn Tunnel Jn could be completley slewed and a straight run into the tunnel be put in, all gone into the ether now though.
 

tbtc

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Shows how poorly thought through bi mode is. The early part of the day sees HST's sweeping out of Landore at 30 min frequencies and the evening from Cardiff in reverse direction. As has been pointed out in Modern Railways the Con/Dems have said they don't want over prescriptive franchises - which is exactly what buying Bi Mode will mean and they don't want PFI deals anymore - which is exactly whats been planned for bi -mode. Something will have to give.

Theres 2 tph from Bristol to Cardiff. The Portsmouth secondary Intercity and the local all stations from the other side of Bristol. West of Swansea in addition to InterCity there is an hourly semi fast to Swansea and West Wales and the Swanline trains plus Measteg locals. Easy enough to chop and change service patterns to give a Swansea to Bath electric service making the wires viable.

If you are prepared to cut direct links then there's no need for bi-mode.

But it'd mean losing services like West Wales - London/Manchester if you want to get the most out of electrification. A price worth paying?
 

Rhydgaled

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Especially considering the fact that the HSTs would run under the wires from Paddington to Newbury. Would make a lot more environmental and economical sense if EDMUs are used instead of the diesel-only HSTs.

its the big paradox isnt it?
Operationally and environmentally everyone prefers all-electric and full-route electrification

But Bi-modes will be cleaner, even if not cheaper, on part-electrified routes

And if you build enough of them you can use the differential cost between their diesel and electric modes as firm evidence for electrification decisions by pointing out that certain routes can be electrified without the additional expense of new stock..

Either IEP is a full HST replacement plan or it isn't. Talk of keeping HSTs for some routes can only be a stop-gap unless they're intended to be rebuilt for DDA compliance.

As I understand it, some IC125s are intended to be rebuilt for DDA compliance, and have been since wires to Cardiff were announced I think. Once that amount of work has been done to them, I doubt you'd want to be scrapping them just 5 years after the 2020 DDA deadline. In a way though, even though I think that means any life-extended mark 3s will work through to at least 2030, if not 2035, I still think of the IC125 life-extension as a stop-gap. 2020 to 2035 is an extra 15 years of diesel, but new diesels (IEP) would come with at a cost of at least 30 extra years of diesel. In theroy yes, bi-modes (which several of us on here argree should be existing 22xs not new trains) will be cleaner than all-diesel. However, there are two points that combine to make that not so. First, the existing diesels can be phased out by 2040, if we have IEP diesels they will delay completion of electrification and completion of removal of diesel LDPE stock beyond 2050, thus extra years of emmisions. Secondly, one of the little devils in the details of the daft Swansea electrification "lack of business case" report was that IEP EMUs would have no additional journey time benifits over an IEP bi-mode on diesel power. They say this is down to the curvature of the line not permitting higher speeds. Hang on a miniute there DafT, the journey time improvments claimed elsewhere are not, apparently, the result of higher linespeeds. The faster speeds gained by electrification are the result of quicker acceleration, therefore curvature limiting linespeed matters not.

So, if IEP diesel is no quicker than IEP electric, they must have made another of the mistakes of the Voyager, sticking in stupidly powerful diesel engines to allow it to accelerate like an EMU at the cost of fuel ecconomy. That means, while the bi-mode would be cleaner under the wires than an Intercity 125, it'd drink far more fuel than their more sluggish predessors once the wires run out. That, and the number 2 complaint about Voyagers, their noisy/uncomfortable underfloor engines, are the reasons why PAD - Plymouth/Penzance, with so much more of the journey away from the wires than under them, should remain IC125 operated until the wires strech far enough.

Being about half under the wires and half away, the Cotswolds line route is in ideal bi-mode country, so stick some 22xs on that. Cheltenham and Swansea are a long way under the wires with a relativly short section beyond, making them ideal candidates to be included in the initial electrification (and they help each other by Cheltenham providing the Severn Tunnel diversionary route, if the Chelteham - Cardiff services are electrified as part of the ValleyLines network).
 

mralexn

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And electrifying it will mean that freight can move through it faster, as can passenger stock, and 319s can run the locals rather than sprinters.

why does it mean that you will be able to go faster through the tunnel? isnt the current line speed in there something like 70? well, in "theory" couldnt you wack a HST through there are 125...
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
The Severn Barrage remains a possibility, so who knows!

imagine the paint.... :P
 

HSTEd

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Well being as freight is apparently now rerouted via Gloucester to free the paths.......

Additionally the tunnel is a major maintenance headache, a new crossing allowing higher speeds, perhaps even with four tracks, would permit the existing tunnel to be retired.
 

Invincibles

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If you electrify to Cheltenham from Swindon and Newport, what does that do for the cost/benefit of Cheltenham to Bromsgrove?

Similarly it must also do something for Gloucester to Bristol Parkway.

It would be lovely to think that we would see all of these little bits of infil done with Manchester to Bristol become an electric IEP but of course that is not going to happen.

Cynically I wonder if all of these thoughts preclude any electrification to Cheltenham.
 

anthony263

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Well being as freight is apparently now rerouted via Gloucester to free the paths.......

Additionally the tunnel is a major maintenance headache, a new crossing allowing higher speeds, perhaps even with four tracks, would permit the existing tunnel to be retired.

I can agree with that. Dont network rail have to re-new the track in the tunnal every 5 years or so?
 

paul1609

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Plenty of possibility for bi-mode freight locomotives. The price of diesel is going to continue to climb faster than the price of electricity, it'll be worthwhile eventually....

The economics of a bi mode freight loco would make a bi mode IEP look like a best buy.Its not likely to be viable within the life of any current or proposed loco.



 

Nym

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why does it mean that you will be able to go faster through the tunnel? isnt the current line speed in there something like 70? well, in "theory" couldnt you wack a HST through there are 125...

More powerful, can pull out the other side faster...
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
...and the economics of a new severn tunnel/bridge would make electrifying every line in Wales look cheap...

If they want total de-volution like scotland, then theres no point in electrifying to another country and paying for it from Westminster.
 

tbtc

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If they want total de-volution like scotland, then theres no point in electrifying to another country and paying for it from Westminster.

This is why I think that electrification to Cardiff and Chester is clever, if the WAG want new powers then they can have the new responsibility of paying for things too.
 
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