Great Western Railway Heathrow Express Class 387 Refittment and Service Updates

[MarkyT]

The 387s should be on conventional systems east of Airport junction.
So the ATP on the GWML shouldn't affect them

Very true, and practically all staff concerned should be fully aware of which systems apply to which stock on which track sections. I expect the Bombardier standard TMS is set up to deal with a generic ATP interface for potential world sales and that function is being performed by ETCS on these particular lines in the UK.

 

[43096]

Yes, so awaiting the 10th so that 5 circuits can run, whilst 11 & 12 makes it 6 pairs with presumably one as a spare diagram.

You'd need sets 11 & 12 to run the five circuits, as they are the maintenance cover.

 

[py_megapixel]

You'd need sets 11 & 12 to run the five circuits, as they are the maintenance cover.

Is the total of 12 sets including or not including the pair which will remain GWR-branded but ETCS-fitted for contingency purposes?

 

[Energy]

Is the total of 12 sets including or not including the pair which will remain GWR-branded but ETCS-fitted for contingency purposes?

I think that is 13&14

 

[FGW_DID]

Is the total of 12 sets including or not including the pair which will remain GWR-branded but ETCS-fitted for contingency purposes?

12 separate HEX units. None of the GWR sets are ETCS fitted.
HEX at full service only require 10 of the 12 so those two will be the maintenance/spare cover.

 

[Energy]

12 separate HEX units. None of the GWR sets are ETCS fitted.

aren't two GWR units having ETCS fitted as a backup?

 

[43096]

Is the total of 12 sets including or not including the pair which will remain GWR-branded but ETCS-fitted for contingency purposes?

My understanding is:
387130-141 getting the full mods (ETCS, repaint, internal work) as the core fleet
387142/143 getting ETCS and remain green as contingency

It will be interesting to see how often the green pair go to Heathrow in practice.

 

[py_megapixel]

12 separate HEX units. None of the GWR sets are ETCS fitted.

I believe 2 sets are being ETCS fitted but are not recieving HEx branding (and so will remain green and presumably in service with GW), as a backup in case not enough HEx branded ones are available. At least that's last I heard on this thread.

 

[FGW_DID]

With the full WTT diagrams, losing two GWR units just to have a contingency would impact the normal service provision and the everyday engineering requirements I.e scheduled exams.

I’ll ask the next time I’m in work but as far as I know there are no plans to send two green units to Ilford.

 

[py_megapixel]

With the full WTT diagrams, losing two GWR units just to have a contingency would impact the normal service provision and the everyday engineering requirements I.e scheduled exams.

But GWR will surely still have those units available for normal service - they'll just have the equipment fitted in case there is some need for them to go down the tunnels.

 

[FGW_DID]

But GWR will surely still have those units available for normal service - they'll just have the equipment fitted in case there is some need for them to go down the tunnels.

What happens when they are used. That would result in a shortage of units for normal service provision.

 

[43096]

What happens when they are used. That would result in a shortage of units for normal service provision.

Presumably what usually happens when they're short of a unit - short formed.

 

[py_megapixel]

What happens when they are used. That would result in a shortage of units for normal service provision.

Presumably some 8 car workings to e.g. Didcot have to be cut to 4.
Alternatively if there is some fault which prevents them running to Heathrow but allows them out on the GWML then they might have to swap a HEx diagram for a GWR one (i.e. a HEx set goes out to Didcot while a GWR one does an Airport circuit).

 

[Dave91131]

Will 387142 & 143 only be able to cover HEx services as a pair together, or could 1 of them be paired with 1 from the dedicated 387130-141 batch?

 

[cactustwirly]

Presumably some 8 car workings to e.g. Didcot have to be cut to 4.
Alternatively if there is some fault which prevents them running to Heathrow but allows them out on the GWML then they might have to swap a HEx diagram for a GWR one (i.e. a HEx set goes out to Didcot while a GWR one does an Airport circuit).

That also relies on 142/3 being in the right place!
Most likely they'll just short form one of the Heathrow units.

 

[D365]

Most likely they'll just short form one of the Heathrow units.

Although that relies on the /1a subfleet being authorised to work single unit trains down to Heathrow.

 

[Mikey C]

What benefit would there be to network rail to own the airport stations. They are already responsible for maintenance and signalling for which Heathrow pays them

On that basis, maybe NR should sell off a few branch lines to raise some cash, as NR don't need to own them

 

[py_megapixel]

That also relies on 142/3 being in the right place!
Most likely they'll just short form one of the Heathrow units.

Not for the time being: as detailed up-thread, they are only authorised to serve Heathrow in pairs.

I wonder if penalties are built into the contract between HEx and GWR for a service being shortformed... if so I imagine GWR will bend over backwards to get 142/143 into the right place as soon as possible should a failure occur.

 

[cactustwirly]

Not for the time being: as detailed up-thread, they are only authorised to serve Heathrow in pairs.

Then they'll cancel a circuit.
It's unlikely as there are two spares. And on the whole the 387s are very reliable.
It's TfL rail who will have more problems with reliability (the Aventra platform is proving to be quite unreliable)

 

[py_megapixel]

Then they'll cancel a circuit.

If they were just going to work on the basis of cancelling or shortforming circuits if the units fail, then why would they bother to get 142 and 143 ETCS fitted?

 

[matt_world2004]

On that basis, maybe NR should sell off a few branch lines to raise some cash, as NR don't need to own them

Who would buy them and what would be the passenger disbenefits of selling them

 

[cactustwirly]

If they were just going to work on the basis of cancelling or shortforming circuits if the units fail, then why would they bother to get 142 and 143 ETCS fitted?

There's no guarantee that 142 or 143 would be available or in the right position to operate Heathrow services in the event of a failure.

It's been said earlier in this thread that 142 and 143 are unlikely to be ECTS fitted.

 

[Nippy]

The service could be 'stepped up' for a couple of trips if necessary whilst waiting a spare set, something frequently done under HEX when 332 reliability wasn't great. I'm not sure of the set up time for cabs under ETCS though and whether that is logistically possible.

 

[JN114]

To reiterate what m’learned colleague said up thread - 142/143 getting ETCS is “old gen”. It was in the plans at one stage, but no longer, or at least not within the foreseeable future. The 12 silver sets are the fleet.

At present authorisation is only for 8 car operations under ETCS L2, we can do 4/8/12 under “National Train Control” - AWS/TPWS, but we cannot run under NTC on the Heathrow Branch except to clear the line of failure, at 40mph to the end of cab signalling boards at the crest of the flyover then forward as normal.

With the current 2tph service, the timings don’t work at all for stepping up, so if a circuit becomes uncovered, it is usually cancelled until a replacement unit can be sourced - the delays were manageable in 332 days but until the drivers are a lot more familiar with the 387s it’ll be unrecoverable with the time taken to set up and so forth. When it eventually goes back to 4tph then stepping up “works” at T5, with a driver change at T5. It does not work at Padd.

GW-ATP is still live on the branch, as are conventional lineside signals, and likely will for some time. On paper the 332s could still make an appearance, they’ve worked their official last train, but 6 units remain available for traffic. There are.... politics involved that mean it’s unlikely we’d see them though.

 

[Nippy]

Just to clarify my point, I wasn't suggesting stepping up of the 2tph service. More to the concern that 12 units won't be enough....

 

[T-Karmel]

When it eventually goes back to 4tph then stepping up “works” at T5, with a driver change at T5. It does not work at Padd.

Is stepping up not going to be a thing in a full timetable in Paddington since there's going to be single platform operation with ~7-8 min hand over time?

 

[Mag_seven]

A reminder to posters that this thread is specifically for the discussion of the HEX Class 387 refittment and service updates and not to discuss anything else HEX related.

I have moved a number of speculative posts about the future of HEX post Crossrail to this thread which can be found in the speculative ideas section:

(1) The future of Heathrow Express Post Crossrail | RailUK Forums (railforums.co.uk)

thanks

 

[Horizon22]

With the current 2tph service, the timings don’t work at all for stepping up, so if a circuit becomes uncovered, it is usually cancelled until a replacement unit can be sourced - the delays were manageable in 332 days but until the drivers are a lot more familiar with the 387s it’ll be unrecoverable with the time taken to set up and so forth. When it eventually goes back to 4tph then stepping up “works” at T5, with a driver change at T5. It does not work at Padd.

GW-ATP is still live on the branch, as are conventional lineside signals, and likely will for some time. On paper the 332s could still make an appearance, they’ve worked their official last train, but 6 units remain available for traffic. There are.... politics involved that mean it’s unlikely we’d see them though.

I've seen this before - it requires about a 10 minute delay or so at Paddington if you need to take a set out of service and have the time to allow a "fresh" set to come from West Ealing sidings. Maybe not related to this thread but how much longer are those 332s physically going to be there before HS2 comes knocking?

Is stepping up not going to be a thing in a full timetable in Paddington since there's going to be single platform operation with ~7-8 min hand over time?

Exactly it isn't possible - the turnaround times are currently very short at Paddington, and relatively long at T5. For a swap to work, you need some amount of time so that A forms B and B forms A without a negative turnaround.

 

[JN114]

With the 332s, if we were down a circuit (either 4/5 on 4tph or 2/3 on 2tph), you could live with the negative turnaround, as the drivers could get set up in 3-4 minutes. So xx32 arrival would be ready to go at xx35 and follow the Bristol. We would only be 10L which “worked” pathing-wise and it would recover it all at T5. You’d only need to do it for a couple of turnarounds while a spare driver took the broken train to old oak and brought a spare off.

With the 387s, due in part to the unfamiliarity; but also just the slower systems, a 3-4 minute turnaround isn’t going to happen, indeed there is some trepidation that the scheduled 8 minute turnaround at Paddington won’t be long enough. And the 6th pair, if it’s actually available for traffic, will be at Reading TCD off exam/maintenance.
So a -7 minute turnaround will probably result in a 17-20 minute late start, which won’t be recoverable at T5. And it would have to drag on for longer as it will take longer to get the replacement unit to Paddington.

 

[T-Karmel]

So how do they want to operate single platform in Padd then? For my understanding that was always going to be a thing since introduction of 387s until (I think) end of 2021. That means that if it was not for COVID, 387s were already in service since June 2020 with single platform operation and stepping up all the time, like they did with 332s on a full timetable.
They'll be only safe if HEX won't return to full timetable until Elizabeth tunnels open fully. I hope coming back to normal won't take that long!