Greater Anglia Bombardier Aventras (Class 720): Technical discussion and introduction

[Wivenswold]

Southend branch, including Southminster through trains (until work is done at Wickford).
Then the GEML and branches. After that it's WA's turn.

 

[Astro_Orbiter]

Southminster will likely get them before WA.

Yeah, this being my point

 

[dk1]

Southminster will likely get them before WA.

Definitely & the WA timetable change has been pushed back to 2022.

 

[delticdave]

Southend branch, including Southminster through trains (until work is done at Wickford).
Then the GEML and branches. After that it's WA's turn.

That's probably 2 through trains in the evenings, the last trip is covered by one of the branch sets. It works up to Liv. St in service & berths there for 1/2 an hour or so. The other branch set has to lay-over in Platform 1 at Wickford until the other two through trains have left the branch. (It's single track with just the one crossing loop, so only 2 trains can be on the branch at all times.)

I'm not so sure re. the morning through trains, they are running before I'm awake.....

 

[Railperf]

Definitely & the WA timetable change has been pushed back to 2022.

I take it 5-car only on Southminster branch until infrastructure works are done?

 

[dk1]

I take it 5-car only on Southminster branch until infrastructure works are done?

Would expect so.

 

[iphone76]

I take it 5-car only on Southminster branch until infrastructure works are done?

There are various Selective Door Operation (SDO) stop marker boards on the branch line so I think 10 cars can operate down there. The problem is that 5 cars do not currently fit in the country end bay platforms at Wickford. Until the station buildings are demolished and the P1 bay extended, the shuttle service cannot terminate at Wickford, even with just 5 cars.

 

[samuelmorris]

Presumably then, unless WA drivers are trained on 321s, the 317s are going to outlast the 321s? By the sound of it, the GEML will have moved to all-720 operation before any units operate on the WA side.

 

[Railperf]

There are various Selective Door Operation (SDO) stop marker boards on the branch line so I think 10 cars can operate down there. The problem is that 5 cars do not currently fit in the country end bay platforms at Wickford. Until the station buildings are demolished and the P1 bay extended, the shuttle service cannot terminate at Wickford, even with just 5 cars.

Interesting. Would a 5-car reduced to 4-cars fit at Wickford. Seems crazy that Wickford station buildings would need to be demolished with all that expenditure. ? Maybe lease in a 4 car 710 for the branch? Or retain a pair of 379's. One to act as cover?

 

[samuelmorris]

It's a classic case of where the bid team didn't do sufficient homework I think. I would personally expect Southminster to be 321-operated until nothing else is, unless the demolition works already underway - I haven't heard that that's the case.

 

[Railperf]

It's a classic case of where the bid team didn't do sufficient homework I think. I would personally expect Southminster to be 321-operated until nothing else is, unless the demolition works already underway - I haven't heard that that's the case.

I was at Wickford last night and can confirm the station buildings still in use. Not a bulldozer in sight.

 

[hwl]

Interesting. Would a 5-car reduced to 4-cars fit at Wickford. Seems crazy that Wickford station buildings would need to be demolished with all that expenditure. ? Maybe lease in a 4 car 710 for the branch? Or retain a pair of 379's. One to act as cover?

Cheaper to demolish and retain a uniform fleet. They have plenty of time before the last 720s are delivered.

 

[iphone76]

Planning permission has been granted to demolish the buildings, but no work has taken place as yet, however, there were two people looking at the building yesterday when I was waiting for my train so perhaps work will start in the new year.

Interesting. Would a 5-car reduced to 4-cars fit at Wickford. Seems crazy that Wickford station buildings would need to be demolished with all that expenditure. ? Maybe lease in a 4 car 710 for the branch? Or retain a pair of 379's. One to act as cover?

I still think that would be too tight with signal sighting, etc.

 

[Class 170101]

Interesting. Would a 5-car reduced to 4-cars fit at Wickford. Seems crazy that Wickford station buildings would need to be demolished with all that expenditure. ? Maybe lease in a 4 car 710 for the branch? Or retain a pair of 379's. One to act as cover?

Was suggested elsewhere on this board why not use Class 755s?

The service itself doesn't actually need to rely on the bay, it previously ran through to Shenfield on an hourly basis under GA/NX and under FGE it was part of the Shenfield metros in the off peak and mainline at peak, so the bays saw limited use. If the building could not be demolished there is also a siding at the London End of the Station that has taken 2x Class 321s at once so should fit a single 5 car Class 720.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

Any planned 720 workings for today? (Sunday)

 

[delticdave]

Was suggested elsewhere on this board why not use Class 755s?

The service itself doesn't actually need to rely on the bay, it previously ran through to Shenfield on an hourly basis under GA/NX and under FGE it was part of the Shenfield metros in the off peak and mainline at peak, so the bays saw limited use. If the building could not be demolished there is also a siding at the London End of the Station that has taken 2x Class 321s at once so should fit a single 5 car Class 720.

I think the natives would object a return the the all-day hourly service. Would adding an extra 5-car 720 to every other Southend train work? (To be attached / detached at Wickford.......)

I was at Wickford last night and can confirm the station buildings still in use. Not a bulldozer in sight.

Thanks, you've saved me a drive to / from Wickford. I'd intended to go there after shopping, but forgot... yet another Senior Moment!

 

[jon0844]

I think the natives would object a return the the all-day hourly service. Would adding an extra 5-car 720 to every other Southend train work? (To be attached / detached at Wickford.......)


Thanks, you've saved me a drive to / from Wickford. I'd intended to go there after shopping, but forgot... yet another Senior Moment!

Why not pop along with a bulldozer and start things off?

 

[delticdave]

Why not pop along with a bulldozer and start things off?

Well, 'tis not my trainset, + I'd prefer to keep the status quo, & retain a few 4-car units for the branch.
As has been suggested, 379's would be very suitable...

 

[JonathanH]

Any planned 720 workings for today? (Sunday)

Appears to be working 1454 Southend Victoria to London Liverpool Street.

 

[Class 170101]

I think the natives would object a return the the all-day hourly service. Would adding an extra 5-car 720 to every other Southend train work? (To be attached / detached at Wickford.......)

Detaching permitted but attaching not allowed for passenger services.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Detaching permitted but attaching not allowed for passenger services.

Why's that?

 

[Class 170101]

Why's that?

Signalling.

 

[samuelmorris]

That doesn't make any sense to me. What would signalling have to do with whether coupling is allowed with people on board or not? Is this going back to the 'blocks occupied' issue mentioned at Liverpool St?

 

[Railperf]

Any planned 720 workings for today? (Sunday)

Yes the usual 720 diagram..though it was inserted later this afternoon.

 

[Shunter_69]

That doesn't make any sense to me. What would signalling have to do with whether coupling is allowed with people on board or not? Is this going back to the 'blocks occupied' issue mentioned at Liverpool St?

I don’t sign Southend but my assumption would be the platforms don’t allow permissive working so you would need to pass a signal at danger to get into the platform to attach and the rules don’t really allow that. Splitting is different as only one train is signalled into the platform and the signalling system lets the first one go and sets up the correct move for the second once it’s departed.

 

[Class 170101]

I don’t sign Southend but my assumption would be the platforms don’t allow permissive working so you would need to pass a signal at danger to get into the platform to attach and the rules don’t really allow that. Splitting is different as only one train is signalled into the platform and the signalling system lets the first one go and sets up the correct move for the second once it’s departed.

Correct, the signalling doesn't have facilities to call on to attach.

 

[306024]

Also splitting on the down road is incredibly tight with a 12 car 321, with the risk of a SPAD when the rear portion reverses back. 10x720 would be similar.

However any timetable that has splitting and detaching carries a performance risk. Southern, who were arguably masters of the art, are going away from it. Add the single line to Southminster with just one passing loop in the middle and you’ve a recipe for an operational nightmare. Keep it simple.

 

[Railperf]

Yes the usual 720 diagram..though it was inserted later this afternoon

Currently 515 and (517??) on the 17.54 Southend to Liverpool Street

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

Currently 515 and (517??) on the 17.54 Southend to Liverpool Street

Indeed, I was on it and marvelled at the smooth ride quality

 

[Railperf]

Indeed, I was on it and marvelled at the smooth ride quality

Definitely smoother, quieter, cleaner and brighter than a non Renatus 321. And no jerky braking either.

That run highlighted how poorly things are pathed / timetabled on a Sunday despite far fewer trains running on the network. The xx.54 from Southend has to come into Shenfield on caution signals as 1Pxx (from Norwich comes sailing through on the up main. It then crawls along on yellows until 1PXX is enough blocks ahead to see clear signals. But despite the additional stop at Romford, still manages to run into yellows again and almost come to a stand at Maryland because 1Pxx has still not cleared Stratford P9.
The 720's gain a few seconds over the 321's due to faster acceleration, but in this case it is useless because the trains are pathed too closely together, and the Shenfield to Stratford timing is pretty slack - meaning drivers often pottering along at 70mph instead of 90!