Greater Anglia Bombardier Aventras (Class 720): Technical discussion and introduction

[TT-ONR-NRN]

TBH the Ryanair crowd are probably just about the only thing for which the wretched things are suitable!

Ahh, now don’t go knocking Ryanair We made it to Fuerteventura last month due to opting to book with them, while the British Airways flights we were originally going to choose got cancelled!

I don’t think the 720s are suitable airport trains, but then I say the same about the 745/1s.

 

[jon0844]

I assume the Stansted Express trains have a hugely different internal configuration?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Ahh, now don’t go knocking Ryanair We made it to Fuerteventura last month due to opting to book with them, while the British Airways flights we were originally going to choose got cancelled!

I don’t think the 720s are suitable airport trains, but then I say the same about the 745/1s.

I don't think 720s are suitable anything trains. Fit with 2+2 seating and big luggage racks and they'd be fine, though.

 

[jon0844]

I don't think 720s are suitable anything trains. Fit with 2+2 seating and big luggage racks and they'd be fine, though.

Yes, I was shocked how bad they are (bar the seating behind the cabs) and on a virtually empty train, many of the tip down seats in the vestibule were used - presumably by people who don't want to squeeze down the ridiculously narrow aisles. If used in the peaks they'll further delay boarding and alighting.

Signs say to put backs behind seats, but with so many airline seats I really don't know how that's possible. Again, I guess the vestibules get used.

Lack of bins. Poor PIS.

They look nice though! Air conditioning was great too. But whoever asked for 3+2..?

 

[WesternBiker]

Yes, I was shocked how bad they are (bar the seating behind the cabs) and on a virtually empty train, many of the tip down seats in the vestibule were used - presumably by people who don't want to squeeze down the ridiculously narrow aisles. If used in the peaks they'll further delay boarding and alighting.

Signs say to put backs behind seats, but with so many airline seats I really don't know how that's possible. Again, I guess the vestibules get used.

Lack of bins. Poor PIS.

They look nice though! Air conditioning was great too. But whoever asked for 3+2..?

I agree. They’re quite good looking from the outside, and the first shock to me was how the colour scheme was so different from the exterior.

Coupled with the serried rows of 3+2 seating, they’ve managed to make the inside feel cramped and dark. It’s a real shame for new rolling stock.

 

[Class360/1]

The reason why the seating is 3+2 is due to two main reasons:

.DfT franchise agreement setting out the minimum capacity (seated), forcing GA to have 3+2
.A customer survey by GA whilst they were designing the units - the response was more seats and no more first class

 

[J-2739]

.A customer survey by GA whilst they were designing the units - the response was more seats and no more first class

This is how to get the public to accept (or perhaps thrust upon them) what may be an unpopular decision otherwise: by asking them a simple question that have an almost obvious answer. I mean, who doesn't want more seats?

 

[306024]

The reason why the seating is 3+2 is due to two main reasons:

.DfT franchise agreement setting out the minimum capacity (seated), forcing GA to have 3+2
.GA customer survey whilst they were designing the units - the response was more seats and no no more first class

Exactly. It’s easy to look at this now post Covid, but if you saw the future passenger numbers predicted three years ago for the GEML and Lea Valley, looking way into the future, there was no alternative.

Where everyone does agree though is trying to fit 3+2 into a 24m vehicle is less than desirable, especially when you add the silly grab handles attached to the seats. Then putting tip up seats by the doors is just plain daft and a serious error of judgement.

That said I use these trains quite frequently and once I‘ve found a seat I find them reasonable enough for the journey time, they don’t fill me with the hatred some seem to enjoy expressing on here.

 

[Bletchleyite]

A customer survey by GA whilst they were designing the units - the response was more seats and no more first class

Removing 1st on suburban units is a good idea, can't argue with that. Though really the cab end facing seats sort of are declassified 1st as they're the only decent ones on the unit.

Regarding more seats, that's what's called "wilful misinterpretation". The customers clearly did not mean "cram more in", they meant "longer trains", or "we don't want Tube style side facing" (a view also expressed on Merseyrail, but curiously the opposite on the T&W Metro!)

Where everyone does agree though is trying to fit 3+2 into a 24m vehicle is less than desirable

Very, very stupid. They should have gone for 6x20m units (same length as 5x24m) 2.80m wide and there'd not be a problem. 350/2s and 360s are perfectly usable.

323s, 165s and 166s are an oddity as they're a heavily tapered body that gets 2.80m (2.81m for 165/166) width in a 23m vehicle. Nobody now seems to be able to replicate that, but again 323s etc are fine too because they *are* wider.

 

[306024]

They should have gone for 6x20m units (same length as 5x24m) 2.80m wide and there'd not be a problem. 350/2s and 360s are perfectly usable.

There would be at Manningtree and Wickford, although in the case if Wickford they had to demolish the station anyway. At Manningtree you’d have to demolish the buffet .

 

[Bletchleyite]

There would be at Manningtree and Wickford, although in the case if Wickford they had to demolish the station anyway. At Manningtree you’d have to demolish the buffet .

Why? 6x20m is the same length (120m) as 5x24m (also 120m). I wasn't suggesting keeping 360s, just that a wide 20m vehicle is fine for 3+2, I really don't mind 350/2s myself.

 

[306024]

Why? 6x20m is the same length (120m) as 5x24m (also 120m). I wasn't suggesting keeping 360s, just that a wide 20m vehicle is fine for 3+2, I really don't mind 350/2s myself.

Yes forget all that, not thinking straight this morning

 

[Energy]

Exactly. It’s easy to look at this now post Covid, but if you saw the future passenger numbers predicted three years ago for the GEML and Lea Valley, looking way into the future, there was no alternative.

Where everyone does agree though is trying to fit 3+2 into a 24m vehicle is less than desirable, especially when you add the silly grab handles attached to the seats. Then putting tip up seats by the doors is just plain daft and a serious error of judgement.

That said I use these trains quite frequently and once I‘ve found a seat I find them reasonable enough for the journey time, they don’t fill me with the hatred some seem to enjoy expressing on here.

I wonder how frequently the middle seat will be used and whether passengers would prefer the end seat be removed to have a thameslink style interior with loads of standing space.

 

[J-2739]

I wonder how frequently the middle seat will be used and whether passengers would prefer the end seat be removed to have a thameslink style interior with loads of standing space.

Nah. Remember, the research clearly stated that the passengers wanted more seats...

 

[Bletchleyite]

Nah. Remember, the research clearly stated that the passengers wanted more seats...

As mentioned that's the classic "using a statistic to justify something that wasn't what the passengers had in mind when they answered".

Of course the passengers didn't say "I'd rather have 24m vehicles to save the railway the cost of 2 more bogies".

On the other hand it seems (having looked up the 710's details) Bombardier have gone for the same 2.77m wide profile (and thick sidewalls) on 20 and 24m lengths (presumably to save a couple of quid on jigs), so none of the Aventra range is now suitable for 3+2 seating.

 

[Alfie1014]

The reason why the seating is 3+2 is due to two main reasons:

.DfT franchise agreement setting out the minimum capacity (seated), forcing GA to have 3+2
.A customer survey by GA whilst they were designing the units - the response was more seats and no more first class

I think the customer survey was actually run by the DfT at the start of the franchise reletting process and was in fact answered by a relatively small number of users, with the questions worded in such a way as to give ’preferred’ outcomes! There was no doubt that with no affordable infrastructure solutions to dealing with the then predicted future demand a rolling stock solution was the only game in town.

Interestingly I’ve dug out the DfTs response to the consultation, see attached a screen shot to the relevant section. The summary of the responses is interesting in that users were only looking for declassification or removal of 1st class on certain peak services or at times of disruption.

 

[jon0844]

5.15 Q12: Would you like more seats, or giant spikes that stab you when boarding the train?

 

[Bald Rick]

So, with this and another thread in mind… Class 700 or Class 720. Which is better?

There‘s only one way to find out….

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

So, with this and another thread in mind… Class 700 or Class 720. Which is better?

There‘s only one way to find out….

I don’t think you can say one is better than the other. It’s entirely subjective.

I positively loathe the 700s with their dull & clinical blue interior and harsh lighting, infestation of excessively long Julie Berry and the awful Matt Streeton announcements, lack of plugs and the fact they still smell of paint six years on. A 720 is far nicer to me. Yet I know there are a good few members on here that hate 720s in just about every way (and make a habit of letting us know it every day). It’s completely subjective.

 

[Bald Rick]

I don’t think you can say one is better than the other. It’s entirely subjective.

I positively loathe the 700s with their dull & clinical blue interior and harsh lighting, infestation of excessively long Julie Berry and the awful Matt Streeton announcements, lack of plugs and the fact they still smell of paint six years on. A 720 is far nicer to me. Yet I know there are a good few members on here that hate 720s in just about every way (and make a habit of letting us know it every day). It’s completely subjective.

Of course it is. That’s why I suggested it. Entirely provocatively.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

Of course it is. That’s why I suggested it. Entirely provocatively.

Sure, but I just cannot face reading about how the 720s are the worst thing since before bread was sliced because of their narrow aisles and “thinner than usual” 3+2 seats yet again.

 

[Bald Rick]

Eq

Sure, but I just cannot face reading about how the 720s are the worst thing since before bread was sliced because of their narrow aisles and “thinner than usual” 3+2 seats yet again.

Equally, I’m pretty tired of hearing about how the 700s are dreadful because there’s no plug sockets and WiFi. Having travelled several hundred miles today by train, online the whole time, and with no need for either, it’s a pretty tiresome argument.

 

[Bletchleyite]

So, with this and another thread in mind… Class 700 or Class 720. Which is better?

There‘s only one way to find out….

If you will accept 717 vs. 720, I did exactly that - Liverpool St to Hertford East (720), walk to Hertford North, Hertford North to Moorgate (720) (or the other way round). I reckon anyone who wishes to compare the two should make that trip. Hertford isn't a particularly unpleasant place for a wander round on the way either.

I vastly preferred the 717, though I felt the lighting was a bit harsh and the colour scheme drab. Better, slightly less hard seats, (slightly) more space, no 3+2, wide aisles. Also the seats on the 717 aren't contoured, which means that if you have to sit slightly offset across two because you don't fit in one, you aren't getting the contour pushing into your back.

I think at this point enter the Class 701, if they ever get the things working. Those seem to me from what I've seen in photos to be the best of both worlds (at least in so far as an innersuburban unit goes; I reckon the LNR 2+2 730 will be the best of the breed once those turn up), and I look forward to trying one.

 

[Energy]

I think at this point enter the Class 701, if they ever get the things working. Those seem to me from what I've seen in photos to be the best of both worlds, and I look forward to trying one.

Agreed, the 701s look like a 700 with some colour, hopefully they get them working.

 

[Techniquest]

Regarding 700s vs 720s, I have no major preference either way. Both are good in my view, and if we were to factor in the 717s I would have to say I've not enough experience on them to comment fairly.

As for 720s, surely the end must be in sight for deliveries now? I'm aware the /1s are coming in now, and I confess I've forgot how many of those there are.

 

[JonathanH]

As for 720s, surely the end must be in sight for deliveries now? I'm aware the /1s are coming in now, and I confess I've forgot how many of those there are.

Still 58 to come out of the total order for 133 units (which is frankly ridiculous when there are only around 30 321s in service).

 

[Techniquest]

Still 58 to come out of the total order for 133 units (which is frankly ridiculous when there are only around 30 321s in service).

Thanks, I was under the illusion there was less than 30 to come.

It's not too far off a year since my 321 farewell trip (didn't expect them to last this long, and I still haven't had the chance to head that way again yet), but given there's that many left I may have to try and get over there again soon. Lots of touring options still in that part of the world, never mind the vast numbers of new trains to go for a ride on.

 

[Mag_seven]

A reminder that the topic of this thread is Greater Anglia Bombardier Aventras (Class 720): Technical discussion and introduction

Can we stick to discussing that please.

 

[St. Paddy]

Does anyone know which units are currently on acceptance/mileage or if any others have been accepted recently?

 

[stonojnr]

Exactly. It’s easy to look at this now post Covid, but if you saw the future passenger numbers predicted three years ago for the GEML and Lea Valley, looking way into the future, there was no alternative.

Where everyone does agree though is trying to fit 3+2 into a 24m vehicle is less than desirable, especially when you add the silly grab handles attached to the seats. Then putting tip up seats by the doors is just plain daft and a serious error of judgement.

That said I use these trains quite frequently and once I‘ve found a seat I find them reasonable enough for the journey time, they don’t fill me with the hatred some seem to enjoy expressing on here.

Ride quality was fine and the journey on the train itself wasnt an issue, but it wasnt just the 3+2 setup we thought created a space problem down the aisles (which will be a problem when passenger numbers return to normal and people with cases/luggage try to move around on it) but the sets of 3 themselves also seemed much closer together. as there was a group of 4 of us travelling and we could not all sit facing one another, there just wasnt enough leg room for us all to sit like that, so we basically had to all sit facing an empty seat and spread across all the seats in the 3+2. I cant imagine again on those commuting peak trains, people are going to be happy with that set up.