Greater Anglia Bombardier Aventras (Class 720): Technical discussion and introduction

[Bald Rick]

Ah, that explains why I saw the pair of 50s in Kilburn loop when I was heading home this evening.

 

[Pugwash]

I am seeing quite a few delays / cancellations due to train faults on the Greater Anglia Twitter, particularly early morning.

Are there reliability statistics available for the 720's as yet ?

 

[66701]

Would anyone be able to give me the units on todays 5Q94 Crewe to Wembley Inter City Depot please. TIA

 

[Dave91131]

720124 in service this evening, paired with 120 on 1837 Liv St - Southend.

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

I am seeing quite a few delays / cancellations due to train faults on the Greater Anglia Twitter, particularly early morning.

Are there reliability statistics available for the 720's as yet ?

Modern Railways Roger Ford produces a table each month called new New Train TIN-watch which uses data provided by operators. The 720's still haven't made the grade to move off the list mind you.

 

[Class 170101]

There are still a few trains missing from the timetable, should they ever return.

A fag packet analysis suggests:

1 x 745 for one peak working Norwich to Liverpool St and return
2 x 745 for Norwich in 90 (or could be 755 due to some of the bid aspirations for 755s being dead for the foreseeable)
4 x 745 for a 15 minute frequency Stansted Express

Also the 745 fleet in the bid assumed 8 x 745/0 for Norwich, 9 x 745/1 for Stansted. The current Norwich timetable requires 10 x 745/0, which is clearly ‘optimistic’ from a fleet of 10. Even if re-written it can’t be resourced with less than 9 x 745/0s

So there could possibly be just 4 x 745s available for GE electric services to replace 720s. That would still leave 10 x 720s required additionally for Stansted to add to the 8 released from the Essex routes.

You can play with these figures a bit depending on fleet availability assumptions.

8 circuits would be possible if you could regularly get the Norwich to London journey down to around 100 minutes each way (which Anglia Railways made a good fist of) however with heavier and therefore slower Class 4 Freight thats not likely to be possible.

Frankly though the availabilty rates offered seem heroic in the extreme.

Class 360s were 20 from 21 and the maintenance depot for them was on the route and Siemens didn't always manage it. The West Anglia fleet is 120 miles to its depot and off route at Norwich, hardly likely to be a recipe for reliability and therefore availability.

 

[47421]

The 2016 franchise was on the basis of 8 circuits on Norwich / Liv St - the franchise agreement commitments was for standard time Norwich / Liv St 1hr40 IIRC. But like all kinds of stuff - eg 10% journey time reductions from May 2021 - has been forgotten.

 

[306024]

The 2016 franchise was on the basis of 8 circuits on Norwich / Liv St - the franchise agreement commitments was for standard time Norwich / Liv St 1hr40 IIRC. But like all kinds of stuff - eg 10% journey time reductions from May 2021 - has been forgotten.

Or proven to be undeliverable. The GEML timetable, including all the connections, is about so much more than just trying to resource the Norwich service with fewer trains.

It will be interesting to see just how much advantage can be taken of class 720 performance on the slowest stopping services.

 

[greaterangrier]

Or proven to be undeliverable. The GEML timetable, including all the connections, is about so much more than just trying to resource the Norwich service with fewer trains.

(Background): In the original franchise commitment, the Train Service Requirement 3 (May 2020) originally called for:

• 3tph Norwich (+1)
• 1tph Ipswich
• 1tph Clacton-on-Sea
• 4tph Southend Victoria (+1)
• 1tph Braintree

(-1tph Colchester Town direct from London)

It will be interesting to see just how much advantage can be taken of class 720 performance on the slowest stopping services.

I'm trying to feel optimistic though I can't see much happening. The 2021 Greater Anglia timetable consultation proposed very little time savings compared to what should be possible with the new Greater Anglia fleet, and their SRTs which I have compared.
In recent times, copious amounts of padding have also been added to the timetable:
In December 2022, Walton trains became 4 minutes later in the down direction (now waiting for 6 minutes after the Clacton), and 2 minutes earlier from Walton in the up direction (now arriving 2½ minutes before the Clacton).
In May 2021, after the peak service was cut down based on passenger demand understandably, all Clacton peak trains now began waiting 2-3 minutes instead of 1 at Colchester.
The joining moves (0744 Clacton & 0800, 0758, 0757 Colchester Town) have gained extra time to join.
The 08:11 Clacton has not lost the 4 minutes at Colchester from a cancelled joining move. This conflicts with a train from Southend at Shenfield.
The 09:05 Clacton has not lost the Shenfield stop and Up Loop wait. This was for the cancelled Norwich in 90 back in 2020.
The 15:05 Clacton carries a Romford stop in place of the 15:35 Colchester Town (which used to be a 12 car 321). This can be changed back to maintain the regular pattern.


What has happened to the clockface timetable?

I accept I am nitpicking and timetable planners have had some of the most difficult times recently, however this level of padding has just turned ridiculous as so many trains have extra time added onto a timetable base which reflects a level of far higher service.

As a separate point, why not return to a 1990s or early 2000s timetable? Has much changed from then?
Will this supposed timetable recast ever happen, to redeliver perfection?

I hold out my hope.

 

[Bald Rick]

I accept I am nitpicking and timetable planners have had some of the most difficult times recently, however this level of padding has just turned ridiculous as so many trains have extra time added onto a timetable base which reflects a level of far higher service.

… and the best performance the route has ever had. Can’t have it both ways…

 

[RailWonderer]

… and the best performance the route has ever had. Can’t have it both ways…

You cannot deny the padding is unnecessarily large.

I accept I am nitpicking and timetable planners have had some of the most difficult times recently, however this level of padding has just turned ridiculous as so many trains have extra time added onto a timetable base which reflects a level of far higher service.

As a separate point, why not return to a 1990s or early 2000s timetable? Has much changed from then?
Will this supposed timetable recast ever happen, to redeliver perfection?

The GE is well overdue a recast, especially now all legacy stock has gone. The early 2000s timetable was actually very different though, with an extra fast Ipswich - Liverpool St by FGE to compete with Anglia railways services that went from Yarmouth, Sheringham and Lowestoft - Liverpool St and all made fewer stops on the GE throughout.

 

[Bald Rick]

You cannot deny the padding is unnecessarily large.

well I can, as padding doesn’t exist Us professional use timetable allowances.

I will agree that using sectional running times based on the performance of rolling stock from the 1980s for trains built in the last few years does provide additional margin for recovery.

but turning it round, you can’t deny that GA performance is the best it has ever been in ‘normal’ circumstances. And tightening the timetable up will cause performance to decline.

 

[306024]

well I can, as padding doesn’t exist Us professional use timetable allowances.

I will agree that using sectional running times based on the performance of rolling stock from the 1980s for trains built in the last few years does provide additional margin for recovery.

but turning it round, you can’t deny that GA performance is the best it has ever been in ‘normal’ circumstances. And tightening the timetable up will cause performance to decline.

The dreaded P word!

No one complains about Swiss punctuality, yet as soon as a UK TOC approaches somewhere near it‘s wrong. Certainly fewer peak passengers has helped too, as some trains that were previously needed to move all the people haven’t returned, giving a bit of performance buffer too.

720s obviously accelerate quicker, but that doesn’t necessarily deliver a different timetable structure. Beaulieu Park station is more likely to achieve that.

 

[RailWonderer]

well I can, as padding doesn’t exist Us professional use timetable allowances.

I will agree that using sectional running times based on the performance of rolling stock from the 1980s for trains built in the last few years does provide additional margin for recovery.

but turning it round, you can’t deny that GA performance is the best it has ever been in ‘normal’ circumstances. And tightening the timetable up will cause performance to decline.

The 'timetable allowance' was too much even for 360s which were substantially quicker than 321s, and had to wait 3-4 minutes at most stops. Same for 379s vs 317s. Still I won't argue with a long time railwayman.

 

[greaterangrier]

I can't think of the last time my train was cancelled. I've missed it a couple times since it's always been on time/early!

What's the consensus on Beaulieu Park calling patterns?

 

[Wivenswold]

It seems a little premature expecting smaller timetable allowances when the legacy stock only disappeared from the GEML a few weeks ago.
I'd be surprised if the next timetable change won't see some timings tightened a little but I agree that I'd rather it takes 1h10 to get to London and be on time most of the time rather than 1h00 but with NXEA-era levels of reliability. Perhaps this would make for a good discussion in the Timetables section.

Folks come here for Class 720 gen after all.

 

[47421]

well I can, as padding doesn’t exist Us professional use timetable allowances.

I will agree that using sectional running times based on the performance of rolling stock from the 1980s for trains built in the last few years does provide additional margin for recovery.

but turning it round, you can’t deny that GA performance is the best it has ever been in ‘normal’ circumstances. And tightening the timetable up will cause performance to decline.

Nice examples of the 720/padding/317 timings effect tonight

https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/service/gb-nr:C60554/2023-03-27/detailed. +14 at Bishops Stortford to +3 WTT +1 public TT at Cambridge North

https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/service/gb-nr:L12893/2023-03-27/detailed +5 Sawbridgeworth to -4 Cambridge

 

[Bald Rick]

I'd be surprised if the next timetable change won't see some timings tightened a little

I would! Late ‘24 at the earliest.

 

[3973EXL]

Realtime Trains | 5Q68 0915 Derby Litchurch Lane to Willesden T.M.D | 31/03/2023

Real-time train running information for 5Q68 0915 departure from Derby Litchurch Lane to Willesden T.M.D on 31/03/2023. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

56098 720128 50049

 

[317 forever]

I know this might change by next year. It's just that I've lost track of whether some London-Cambridge trains are 745s or whether they are all 720s.

 

[JonathanH]

I know this might change by next year. It's just that I've lost track of whether some London-Cambridge trains are 745s or whether they are all 720s.

All 720s. Not seen any report of a 745 in service to Cambridge.

 

[317 forever]

All 720s. Not seen any report of a 745 in service to Cambridge.

I imagined, potentially wrongly, that some 745s for Stansted Airport had been diverted to Cambridge at least in Spring 2020. Plus with the reduction of air travel I then predicted fewer needed for Stansted Express.

So, barring anything unforeseen I shall be able to get an Advance ticket on that line assured that it will be a 720.

 

[Jammy Dodger]

I know this might change by next year. It's just that I've lost track of whether some London-Cambridge trains are 745s or whether they are all 720s.

I imagined, potentially wrongly, that some 745s for Stansted Airport had been diverted to Cambridge at least in Spring 2020. Plus with the reduction of air travel I then predicted fewer needed for Stansted Express.

In normal operation, all LST-CBG services are 720's, and LST-SSD are 745's (with 720's substituting in if need be). I'd assume the reason some LST-CBG services were 745's during the pandemic was to reduce wear on the older 317's

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

I'd assume the reason some LST-CBG services were 745's during the pandemic was to reduce wear on the older 317's

95% sure they weren’t…

 

[William3000]

I guess that would mean more 2+2 seating near the vestibules then? Assuming this is the case, the areas will look the closest row in the photo below, I assume...

View attachment 130450

It was bizarre that they went with 3+2 formation - I thought they had been phased out. 2+2 would be a vast improvement and the return of tables for laptop use etc. I’m pretty sure thought that the width of the seats used is narrower than on a 745.

 

[Wivenswold]

It was bizarre that they went with 3+2 formation - I thought they had been phased out. 2+2 would be a vast improvement and the return of tables for laptop use etc. I’m pretty sure thought that the width of the seats used is narrower than on a 745.

Blame the DfT and the points they were giving bids for on the week they awarded the Franchise- GA's bid of complete fleet renewal and thousands of more seats for commuters won them the franchise.
In fact blame the DfT and Treasury for most of the railway's ills. Not a party political comment, our railways have been managed appallingly by every Government in my lifetime.

 

[Magdalia]

It's just that I've lost track of whether some London-Cambridge trains are 745s or whether they are all 720s.

All 720s. Not seen any report of a 745 in service to Cambridge.

I'd assume the reason some LST-CBG services were 745's during the pandemic was to reduce wear on the older 317's

As far as I'm aware class 745s have never worked Liverpool Street-Cambridge trains.

But there have been a few occasions, during engineering blocks, when they have worked Stansted-Cambridge North shuttles.

During the first lockdown in spring 2020 the very limited Liverpool Street-Cambridge service was almost entirely class 379s.

 

[3RDGEN]

With the original fleets now all replaced and approx thirty 720's still to be delivered/accepted to service are we looking at around 20 units surplus to to current requirements, given usage may increase with the May timetable?

 

[Wivenswold]

It would be nice if they could do something innovative with those remaining units, a twice hourly frequency to Clacton might help the gridlock on the roads around the East of Colchester during the peaks. Or is that the sort of joined-up holistic transport plan that only happens on the other side of the Channel?

 

[Class 170101]

It would be nice if they could do something innovative with those remaining units, a twice hourly frequency to Clacton might help the gridlock on the roads around the East of Colchester during the peaks. Or is that the sort of joined-up holistic transport plan that only happens on the other side of the Channel?

Depends what you mean by peak but to London in the morning Peak and from London in the evening peak Clacton is already served twice per hour.