Greater Anglia Class 90 With Mark 3 Coaches or Greater Anglia Class 745?

[Grumbler]

Mark 3s with IC70 seats remain unsurpassed in terms of comfort, ride quality and ambience. However, the 745s are a fine bit of a kit and a worthy replacement - they are by far the best of the latest "InterCity" trains; they show up IEP for what it is.

The IEP seats are dreadful, the FLIRT ones are very comfortable.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I was always very partial to a 150/2 & sad to see them replaced by 156s in the mid 2000s on my patch.

I'm assuming you're a dwarf

The IEP seats are dreadful, the FLIRT ones are very comfortable.

It is good that Abellio (GA and WMT) decided to go for a premium seat choice (no, TfW, that seat is not premium) on all their stock, even the cram-em-in commuter stuff.

(Though inexplicable that the same WMT are putting Sophias in 1st on the West Coast Aventras - it's like they want to continue the trend of the best place to sit with a First Class ticket being Standard! )

 

[trebor79]

Haven't sampled 745 first class, but the standard class in definitely much better than the Mk3, which was quite cramped with fixed armrests. From what I've seen the first class will be better than the GA Mk3 first class too.
240V and USB power at every seat pair, comfy seat, nice open airy ambience but with the glass partition doors giving a cosy "compartment" feel, quiet and a very smooth ride. What's not to like?

InterCity 70 seats are awful, worse than Fainsa Sophias. However the First Class seats on those Mk3s (IC80?) were quite nice. So I'm going FLIRT in Standard but Mk3 in 1st.

I didn't mind the IC70's once I'd fought my way over the armrest and sat down, but I still prefer the 745.

The first class seats are the original IC80 type, albeit with new fabric. They were also used in the APT prototype of the same era. The recline mechanism was broken on many of them so the Abellio refurbishment simply fixed them in the laid back position and covered up the adjust button that was on the armrest.

Back on topic, I miss the old trains but purely for nostalgic reasons. There is no denying the Stadlers are a far superior train, as is to be expected with a forty year newer design.

Ah! That explains the biggest issue I had with the GA 1st class! It was impossible to work comfortably because the seat was so laid back - you either needed to have Gadget Arms or sit hunched forward which became uncomfortable very quickly. I always thought it was weird the seats were so laid back. They lost loads of first class fares from me and others as I used to just bag a table seat in standard as that was so much more practical for getting work done.
If you just wanted to lol about and gaze out of the window there were comfy enough though!

Similarly, I miss the Mk3s for nostalgic reasons. There is the "je ne sais quot" about a loco-hauled rake pulling up, the big heavy slam doors and the THUMP on every departure from Liverpool Street as the 90 pushed up into the rake. But I prefer the 745 experience and they are an absolutely superb train to travel on.

 

[northernbelle]

Stadler every time. I won't miss the uncomfortable IC70 seating - fixed armrests that get in your way, no legroom and 'bumrot' setting in after an hour because they aren't ergonomic in any way. I am also pleased to see the back of the endlessly irritating Mark 3 affliction of squeaky gangways - given the rest of the ambience was so quiet, this sound soon stood out over everything else once the train was underway. That said, the interiors were visually very appealing and the ride quality unrivalled - sadly the need to meet vehicle weight requirements has probably seen off any possibility of such well-engineered suspension in the future.

Subjective items aside, the move to fully accessible, power door rolling stock can only be a step forward for society.

 

[357 LTSRail]

The first class seats are the original IC80 type, albeit with new fabric. They were also used in the APT prototype of the same era. The recline mechanism was broken on many of them so the Abellio refurbishment simply fixed them in the laid back position and covered up the adjust button that was on the armrest.

Wow, I didn’t know that! It certainly explains why they felt so odd compared to first class on what I thought looked like the same seats with other operators.

That seems a very crude solution for sure as it made working or even just eating difficult with a permanently high degree of recline. I wonder if it would’ve been more optimal to lock them in their upright position on reflection in hindsight.

 

[Railperf]

No contest... Performance wise... 745!! Also better interior.. More seats.. Level boarding... Cleaner... Brighter.. Smoother ride..

 

[D6975]

My last trip to Norwich I travelled in a first class Mk 3. It was very pleasant and at about 35 quid for an advance FC single Bristol-Norwich very good value. (ps that fare still exists, but just try buying one!)

 

[Wivenswold]

The 90 sets have been awful for a while now, I don't miss the bruises caused by trying to extricate myself out of a window seat to get off the train past hard plastic edges and armrests.
The 745s are amazing trains, better than anything we've had on GA before, I'll include the 309s in that.

 

[AverageTD]

745s get an easy win from me. The 90/Mk3s weren't bad but the 745s have taken rolling stock to another level really, without compromising comfort like many other new trains have. The improved seats are GA's handywork iirc though.

 

[73128]

Vote based on recent travels with all line Rover (late 2019) in first class plus various short journeys at London end in standard. Sadly Anglia let the stock go some time before it was withdrawn which is why it ended up looking tatty. Wasn't impressed with two journeys from Stratford to London in 745s last year. Will have to wait until later this year for a longer journey

 

[dk1]

Vote based on recent travels with all line Rover (late 2019) in first class plus various short journeys at London end in standard. Sadly Anglia let the stock go some time before it was withdrawn which is why it ended up looking tatty. Wasn't impressed with two journeys from Stratford to London in 745s last year. Will have to wait until later this year for a longer journey

It didn't look too tatty as had had a multi-£million refurb just before being withdrawn. As other posters have said, the 745s particularly the IC units are a more than worthy replacement & I wouldn't swap them back now for all the tea in Harrods.

 

[The_Train]

Loco and stock versus plastic.

No contest!

Of course. Because of what is on the front.

This!
How anyone can prefer a soulless unit over real train is beyond me.

 

[AverageTD]

This!
How anyone can prefer a soulless unit over real train is beyond me.

Who cares if the train offers far better performance, accessibility and a world of other advantages, as long as it has "character" and "soul" then they should run forever!

 

[dk1]

This!
How anyone can prefer a soulless unit over real train is beyond me.

Depends how you define soulless. To most passengers it just needs to be comfortable, clean & reliable. The 745s offer all this along with very rapid acceleration to boot.

 

[Mogz]

From the seating plans it looks like they have a good mix of table and airline seating too. Most carriages have 8 tables. Did I see that one has no less than 12 tables in Standard, or did I misread that?

 

[D365]

How anyone can prefer a soulless unit over real train is beyond me.

Wasn't this argument reportedly levelled at the HSTs, back in the 70s?

 

[Wivenswold]

Who cares if the train offers far better performance, accessibility and a world of other advantages, as long as it has "character" and "soul" then they should run forever!

On preserved lines and specials on the network, yes. Next time a modern train has a crash and the death count is surprisingly low, think about why all rolling stock has an expiry date.

 

[D365]

On preserved lines and specials on the network, yes. Next time a modern train has a crash and the death count is surprisingly low, think about why all rolling stock has an expiry date.

The post you are replying to was very much tongue-in-cheek. I don’t think AverageTD is serious that all loco-hauled stock should be used for a 483-esque length of time!

 

[AverageTD]

The post you are replying to was very much tongue-in-cheek. I don’t think AverageTD is serious that all loco-hauled stock should be used for a 483-esque length of time!

Very much so, rather hard to show sarcasm over the internet. My point being is that I generally find people using "soul" etc to justify how good a train is frankly ridiculous.

 

[Energy]

This!
How anyone can prefer a soulless unit over real train is beyond me.

Looking over this thread you are definitely in the minority, with one other person. Most people here have said that they prefer the 745s as they are a better train in every single way. If you ask non-enthusiast travellers I think you will find the vast majority will prefer 745s due to having far more seats and in that I doubt you will find a single wheelchair user who prefers the mk3s.

I can get why people dislike the AT300s, the bad seating, lack of buffet at GWR, far too many 5 car units at GWR and the questionable build quality of 802s (they came from the former AnsaldoBreda factory...) as these are all valid reasons to dislike the train but when you have to resort to calling the train 'soulless', it gives the impression that the new units have no problems and you just don't want to move on.

 

[Bletchleyite]

In many ways a unit is less "soulless" than LHCS. You can't, in modern LHCS, hear any of the traction equipment, just white noise from the aircon.

OK, doesn't apply to the EMUs, but there aren't many locomotives where you can go and stand in the middle of the engine bay, whereas you can on the bi-mode FLIRTs!

 

[Halish Railway]

In many ways a unit is less "soulless" than LHCS. You can't, in modern LHCS, hear any of the traction equipment, just white noise from the aircon.

OK, doesn't apply to the EMUs, but there aren't many locomotives where you can go and stand in the middle of the engine bay, whereas you can on the bi-mode FLIRTs!

In many ways the 745s could be described as “LHCS-esque” as the traction motors are only placed in the extreme ends and centre of the train.

 

[D365]

Very much so, rather hard to show sarcasm over the internet. My point being is that I generally find people using "soul" etc to justify how good a train is frankly ridiculous.

We tend to just use a wink

But I agree 100% and would suggest that it’s just the nature of this forum’s demographic.

 

[Class465pacer]

Loco and stock versus plastic.

No contest!

If plastic is a nicer experience then that doesn’t say very much for loco and stock

 

[Bletchleyite]

If plastic is a nicer experience then that doesn’t say very much for loco and stock

I wouldn't say much for CAF Mk5as, to be honest, other than First Class. Better than a Voyager, but all other long-distance units beat them for me.

 

[ge-gn]

I’m a BR man of a certain age, so of course I miss the old guard. And actually I think the ride quality on a well honed mk3 is hard to beat, but now the new trains issues are settling down, they are very fine indeed. And unreliability due to train faults is on the down In my experience.

 

[northernbelle]

I wouldn't say much for CAF Mk5as, to be honest, other than First Class. Better than a Voyager, but all other long-distance units beat them for me.

Seconded. I like the CAF stock in itself, barring a couple gripes such as the noisy suspension - but alternative units seem to have the edge. The TPE 802s have a better window layout in my view - the long window pillars in the CAF stock do start making you feel a bit hemmed in at times, and I'm yet to ride a loco hauled set where the PIS has performed without error.

 

[xotGD]

This!
How anyone can prefer a soulless unit over real train is beyond me.

I guess some posters on this thread would prefer the 745 over a Deltic or Western on the front of a set of Mark 1s

 

[gg1]

Wasn't this argument reportedly levelled at the HSTs, back in the 70s?

....and diesels of any description in the 60s and BR standards in the 50s.



If there was such a thing as rail enthusiasts 130 years ago, I'm sure a fair few in certain areas of the country would automatically dismiss anything running on a track gauge of less than 7ft as ugly, soulless lumps of iron.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I guess some posters on this thread would prefer the 745 over a Deltic or Western on the front of a set of Mark 1s

For a bit of fun, I'd go for the Deltic or Western on Mk1s.

To get somewhere, the FLIRT any day.