Greater Anglia Good and Bad Discussion

[Alfie1014]

In light of the mixed reaction to the class 360 refresh, GA have decided to put in new seats in 1st class which will recline fully, so that when the GEML is disrupted as it will be, passengers get sleep, arriving home refreshed.

Here's a picture of the first unit 360122.

 

[george.h]

I'm finally on one of the 360's with the new seat covers. I have to say they look a hell of a lot better in reality than the initial pics. Colour scheme is a very neutral grey. The general "green" appearance in the first pics must have been poor white balance.

I like them.

George

 

[stu227]

Yes - I saw one of them last week - not nearly as bad as the photos made them look and a marked improvement on what was there before.

 

[Dan27]

It seems that the 321 demonstrator's aircon has not been working - and with no windows to open it's been hitting the local news.

http://www.echo-news.co.uk/news/133...__on_trains_with_broken_air_con/?ref=mr&lp=14

 

[captainbigun]

I saw that train at Stratford. Many passengers fanning themselves. Doesn't bode well that that the first hot days summer arrive and the aircon is either not working or has failed.

Modifying a train in this way cannot be taken lightly, the solution has to be robust.

 

[Dave1987]

I think the air con units on all trains would have been struggling in recent days. If people could be trusted not to open the windows train builders could install hopper windows on all trains just in case the air con did fail or was without power for a length of time.

 

[captainbigun]

I think the air con units on all trains would have been struggling in recent days. If people could be trusted not to open the windows train builders could install hopper windows on all trains just in case the air con did fail or was without power for a length of time.

In 12 years of using Desiros I've not had an aircon failure.....

Complete failure across a whole unit is pretty concerning, especially as this is meant to be the blueprint for the fleet.

 

[MrPIC]

Some 379's have had broken aircon over the last few days which by all accounts was rather unpleasant.

 

[Dave1987]

In 12 years of using Desiros I've not had an aircon failure.....

Complete failure across a whole unit is pretty concerning, especially as this is meant to be the blueprint for the fleet.

I believe it was a test bed to see what works and what needed further work. If they fail regularly once the complete overhaul has been completed then I would be concerned.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Some 379's have had broken aircon over the last few days which by all accounts was rather unpleasant.

That's impossible! According to some particular individuals on Twitter those 379's are utterly brilliant simply because they are relatively new and were built by Bombardier (I'm sure you can guess who on Twitter).

 

[westv]

I think the air con units on all trains would have been struggling in recent days. If people could be trusted not to open the windows train builders could install hopper windows on all trains just in case the air con did fail or was without power for a length of time.

I assume things haven't changed since I last commuted on the line from Wickford where we had no air con at all.

 

[samuelmorris]

That's impossible! According to some particular individuals on Twitter those 379's are utterly brilliant simply because they are relatively new and were built by Bombardier (I'm sure you can guess who on Twitter).

Really, still? I think you're really stretching 'misinterpretation' to the limit there...

A/C failure across the board on a sealed train is nasty. That being said there've been several reports of A/C failures on c2c's 357s and I was on a rather unpleasant Southern 377/3 earlier this week with the A/C switched off, so it's not exactly rare. Can't comment on if I've ever had a Desiro with the A/C failed. I don't recall that being the case, but I could be wrong.

 

[Dave1987]

Really, still? I think you're really stretching 'misinterpretation' to the limit there...

A/C failure across the board on a sealed train is nasty. That being said there've been several reports of A/C failures on c2c's 357s and I was on a rather unpleasant Southern 377/3 earlier this week with the A/C switched off, so it's not exactly rare. Can't comment on if I've ever had a Desiro with the A/C failed. I don't recall that being the case, but I could be wrong.

Er no, I had a discussion with the relevant person/people on Twitter about the fact the 379's are only a few years old and are already starting to fail. To which I was met with a barrage of tweets saying how good they were and that the "skips" are rubbish etc etc. The fact that a few people who troll the GA twitter feed seem to be connected with Bombardier seems to have something to do with it.

 

[Shunter_69]

The 321 Demonstrator is currently on its way to Derby having been picked up this morning. Not sure if that is because of the failure of the air con or just a coincidence.

 

[captainbigun]

I believe it was a test bed to see what works and what needed further work. If they fail regularly once the complete overhaul has been completed then I would be concerned.

Well, yes, but it's a bit late by then isn't it, hence the prototype.

 

[samuelmorris]

Er no, I had a discussion with the relevant person/people on Twitter about the fact the 379's are only a few years old and are already starting to fail. To which I was met with a barrage of tweets saying how good they were and that the "skips" are rubbish etc etc. The fact that a few people who troll the GA twitter feed seem to be connected with Bombardier seems to have something to do with it.

I raised the Bombardier point at one of the meetings. It's nonsense. Bombardier are no more or less defended than Siemens. They are simply not met with the level of vitriol they receive (rightly or wrongly) on the forum. The door buttons is an inexcusable screw-up and I do think there is a slightly higher-quality finish on Desiros than Electrostars, but nonetheless compared to the other stock on the line, 379s and 360s are luxury. The 360s have been run into the ground like the BR stock, but unlike the 321s and 317s they aren't yet old enough (or as mechanically fault-prone, lacking DC traction motors etc.) to really be falling to bits as a result of it. The 379s take that a step further by not really being old enough to be suffering major interior fatigue like the 360s are (safety stickers falling off, threadbare seats etc.).
The 379s are the best stock the line currently has, simply because they haven't been around long enough to truly suffer neglect. The fact that they're made by Bombardier has largely nothing to do with it.

I've been to several meetings with these people and never observed them being especially pro-Bombardier, or pro-any rolling stock manufacturer to be honest.

 

[jon0844]

When I hear the word skip it gives a pretty good clue. The 317s and 321s are skips, and couldn't ever be refreshed as they're life expired (as had been said multiple times) yet no complaints about the 315s and 317s given a refresh inside and out on LO. Funny that.

 

[HH]

Given that those 315/317s will be replaced in a few years, then someone must think they have a life beyond that...

 

[jon0844]

I firmly believe that they can and should be refurbished properly and cascaded elsewhere, where they may have another 10+ years in them.

The argument is that they're old skips and nothing can be done, and I don't believe that all. Look at the 319s which aren't much newer and seem to be doing fine.

 

[slick]

I dont think GA 317s have much more life in them, neither do ours (London Overground) 'Under the hood' they are completely knackered now. Most of them have fried electronics racks, fried traction motors, fried WSP racks, and fried circuits. None of which are being replaced just patched or borrowed from healthier units. Ilford usually and have said for some years now that alot of it is down to most of the 'big' bits like Thyristor packs and traction motors are near impossible to source these days for such old units. It hasn't helped either that NX/GA ran them into the ground. No new paint or seat covers can hide that. The bombardier demonstrator 317 now lives in ilford for some reason, and all of the ex airport 3177XX units that we now have at LO are almost useless, although the internal refresh that was done on them was nothing short of a miracle and has been well recieved. But 90% of our failures on LO come from them.

315s on the other hand are quite different. Although they look dated and are technically the older train, these are far from finished. They just seem to go and go. The C6 overhaul they had shows and they have superior systems like circuitry, wiring, cabs, doors, egress, aircon system (for drivers),WSP racks and it certainly shows when its slippery. The new PIS system works and isn't prone to failure. Failures are few and far between. Although these have been hammered too they haven't fared nearly as badly as the 317s. The main things to go on them are the electric doors (which can be easily reset) GSMR radios (which are new anyway) and maybe the odd air leak from a sticky valve. Things that can be patched up relatively easilly. Ive still yet to fully fail in one in 7 years, to a point where I cant move. 317s on the other hand...

I think if somebody took the time to do the 317s properly from the ground up eg retractioned, replaced the braking systems, decent aircon and PIS systems for passengers you could probably squeeze another 10 years of good service out of them because thats where the age is starting to show...Some of the units histories in their fault books you would wonder how the train is even able to move under its own power. But after the bombardier demostrator, which I would hardly class as a success I think that will be unlikely to happen.

Cant speak for 321s as I have no experience with them but their demonstrator looked quite smart.

 

[jon0844]

Interesting about the 315s as I thought the same about the 313s. I do believe they're no longer adequate for demand into Moorgate, but would be fine relocated elsewhere.

The 317s have always appeared to have electrical problems going by the number of faulty lights inside, and the damaged screens which I assume comes from a poorly regulated power supply that fries components.

 

[hassaanhc]

I dont think GA 317s have much more life in them, neither do ours (London Overground) 'Under the hood' they are completely knackered now. Most of them have fried electronics racks, fried traction motors, fried WSP racks, and fried circuits. None of which are being replaced just patched or borrowed from healthier units. Ilford usually and have said for some years now that alot of it is down to most of the 'big' bits like Thyristor packs and traction motors are near impossible to source these days for such old units. It hasn't helped either that NX/GA ran them into the ground. No new paint or seat covers can hide that. The bombardier demonstrator 317 now lives in ilford for some reason, and all of the ex airport 3177XX units that we now have at LO are almost useless, although the internal refresh that was done on them was nothing short of a miracle and has been well recieved. But 90% of our failures on LO come from them.

315s on the other hand are quite different. Although they look dated and are technically the older train, these are far from finished. They just seem to go and go. The C6 overhaul they had shows and they have superior systems like circuitry, wiring, cabs, doors, egress, aircon system (for drivers),WSP racks and it certainly shows when its slippery. The new PIS system works and isn't prone to failure. Failures are few and far between. Although these have been hammered too they haven't fared nearly as badly as the 317s. The main things to go on them are the electric doors (which can be easily reset) GSMR radios (which are new anyway) and maybe the odd air leak from a sticky valve. Things that can be patched up relatively easilly. Ive still yet to fully fail in one in 7 years, to a point where I cant move. 317s on the other hand...

I think if somebody took the time to do the 317s properly from the ground up eg retractioned, replaced the braking systems, decent aircon and PIS systems for passengers you could probably squeeze another 10 years of good service out of them because thats where the age is starting to show...Some of the units histories in their fault books you would wonder how the train is even able to move under its own power. But after the bombardier demostrator, which I would hardly class as a success I think that will be unlikely to happen.

Cant speak for 321s as I have no experience with them but their demonstrator looked quite smart.

As a passenger I do find the ceiling design of the original 1981-1982 Class 317 units looks incredibly tatty and dated, also the case with the Mk3 HST and loco-hauled coaches, plus 318 units. The PEP interior still looks fine, not to mention that of the later 1985-1987 Class 317s, as well as 455s. Don't understand why the 150/1, 317 318, and 455 got different ceiling designs to each other, despite being from the same family of units :?. At least it wasn't continued with the redesigned interiors on the 150/2, 319, 320, 321, 322 and 456 units.

 

[HH]

Interesting.

I get the feeling that the 321s have never fully recovered from the time, under NX, when they blew half the engines by covering the airflow when trying to stop snow ingress. Certainly there are a lot of short-formed trains around; indeed one supposed 12-car train is so often 8-car that many punters probably think it's supposed to be 8, and get a shock when it turns up fully formed.

 

[samuelmorris]

I don't think the argument is that the 321s can't be refreshed, just that even if they were they still wouldn't be adequate for running GEML services all the way up to their actual expiry date. A line that I seem to recall seeing in one of the NR reports (Atkins report maybe? I forget) is the suggestion that the 321s could be isolated to branches (e.g. Harwich, Walton, Southminster) and the Southend Victoria line, avoiding their use on the actual mainline in regular service thus avoiding the interference of 110mph traffic with 100mph stock.
This I'm guessing would need a fleet of around 50 units, leaving around half to be cascaded to wherever, presumably the North. That leaves a substantial enough fleet to be realistically used on both sides. The 321s will also presumably also only be able to be refurbished properly at any reasonable pace if there is additional stock on the route to cover for their absence given things are so tight at the moment - so presumably they would be sweated out until the arrival of some new units before doing the bulk of the fleet.

The 317s on LO by all accounts are still every bit as unreliable as they were on AGA, unsurprisingly, which rather hints at the state they're in. Perhaps they can be brought up to scratch, but they do seem more of a problem case than the 315s.
The 319s on NR have, as far as I can see, a pretty poor reliability record thus far too, but I rather suspect that can improve once they're more familiar up there.

HH: interesting, I didn't realise that happened, perhaps that explains why they have so many traction motor failures compared to other units. That being said I was on a TfL 315 yesterday that was missing the rear motor pair - it was noticeably slower - still ran to time though.

 

[captainbigun]

There's a fair quantity of poetic license here.

314-317/320-322 are all the same technology, I.e. With Half controlled thyristor rectifiers. The control on 314/5 is analogue where's the rest is electronic, though not micro. 319s are GTO based as they are duel voltage.

The motors would never be covered to prevent snow ingress. They are force ventilated, so covering the would be counter productive. What will have been fitted are snow curtains to prevent snow ingress.

All of the tech is maintainable. Motors can be rewound and thyristor devices are readily available. None of this is cheap of course and that will be part of the issue. Fleets are in limbo whilst there's faffing over life extension work.

I see no reason why the re-traction can't be effective but it won't be cheap.

The longer the decision is pending the worse the general state of the fleet becomes and the more expensive life extension becomes.

 

[Dave1987]

I don't think the argument is that the 321s can't be refreshed, just that even if they were they still wouldn't be adequate for running GEML services all the way up to their actual expiry date. A line that I seem to recall seeing in one of the NR reports (Atkins report maybe? I forget) is the suggestion that the 321s could be isolated to branches (e.g. Harwich, Walton, Southminster) and the Southend Victoria line, avoiding their use on the actual mainline in regular service thus avoiding the interference of 110mph traffic with 100mph stock.
This I'm guessing would need a fleet of around 50 units, leaving around half to be cascaded to wherever, presumably the North. That leaves a substantial enough fleet to be realistically used on both sides. The 321s will also presumably also only be able to be refurbished properly at any reasonable pace if there is additional stock on the route to cover for their absence given things are so tight at the moment - so presumably they would be sweated out until the arrival of some new units before doing the bulk of the fleet.

The 317s on LO by all accounts are still every bit as unreliable as they were on AGA, unsurprisingly, which rather hints at the state they're in. Perhaps they can be brought up to scratch, but they do seem more of a problem case than the 315s.
The 319s on NR have, as far as I can see, a pretty poor reliability record thus far too, but I rather suspect that can improve once they're more familiar up there.

HH: interesting, I didn't realise that happened, perhaps that explains why they have so many traction motor failures compared to other units. That being said I was on a TfL 315 yesterday that was missing the rear motor pair - it was noticeably slower - still ran to time though.

I agree with you somewhat. The 321's with a very good refurb could see out the decade they have left doing the Harwich, Walton and Southminster branches. If a decent fleet of them were kept being maintained at Clacton with enough of them to ensure any small faults could be fixed instead of needings to be put back into service constantly. I think the mainline needs a fleet of 360 type units be that a new fleet or cascades.

According to certain people though the "skips" are only fit for scrap. They also say that *every* train on GEML should be a class 1 headcode (including all Harwich and Walton services) merely because GEML serves the city. And by that notion GEML should always have a new fleet to be cascaded to less important lines. I mean the pure arrogance of that is astonishing. Yes GEML has not had the investment it deserves which will hopefully be rectified next year but to say that every train should be a class 1 headcode and have the newest best stock is frankly ridiculous. Considering the patchwork quilt GEML has for infrastructure I rather think the emphasis should be placed more on Network Rail to get it sorted, as even a completely brand new fleet wont speed up journey times or stop the current delays as most are caused by congestion and infrastructure faults.

 

[ginger]

I agree with you somewhat. The 321's with a very good refurb could see out the decade they have left doing the Harwich, Walton and Southminster branches. If a decent fleet of them were kept being maintained at Clacton with enough of them to ensure any small faults could be fixed instead of needings to be put back into service constantly. I think the mainline needs a fleet of 360 type units be that a new fleet or cascades.

According to certain people though the "skips" are only fit for scrap. They also say that *every* train on GEML should be a class 1 headcode (including all Harwich and Walton services) merely because GEML serves the city. And by that notion GEML should always have a new fleet to be cascaded to less important lines. I mean the pure arrogance of that is astonishing. Yes GEML has not had the investment it deserves which will hopefully be rectified next year but to say that every train should be a class 1 headcode and have the newest best stock is frankly ridiculous. Considering the patchwork quilt GEML has for infrastructure I rather think the emphasis should be placed more on Network Rail to get it sorted, as even a completely brand new fleet wont speed up journey times or stop the current delays as most are caused by congestion and infrastructure faults.

Oh Dave is off again "mis quoting" and "mis representation"......refuse to meet to discuss......throw around personal insults on twitter then hide your account.....

and then agree with most of what of being said and refusing to meet to have a rational conversation! WOW!

Suggest you remove this post Dave and apologise!

Your second paragraph is factually incorrect in many ways btw but I have the facts.....guess you dont!

 

[jon0844]

I've seen (and still see) loads of Tweets talking about the skips and how they're unfit for purpose and need to be scrapped.

Let's pause for a second.

1) The next franchise will see new trains ordered. I can't say when they'll be introduced, but it will happen. There might also be some cascades of trains from the 1990s (Mk4s) - but the exact details will depend on each bid.

2) Many trains are in a poor state, mechanically (forgetting about the common moans about seat covers and suggestions that they're full of fleas or mites or whatever, and how people insist they've been bitten etc). This has been a problem for many years - and so the 317s on AGA are in a poorer state than the GTR ones serviced at Hornsey. BUT BUT BUT they aren't beyond hope, if someone decides to strip them down and rebuild then properly. It may happen, it may not, but most or all of these trains will ultimately be cascaded elsewhere if they are given a facelift. I firmly believe that with new traction, upgraded electrics, an all-new interior and possibly decent air conditioning, someone would be very happy with a 317 or 321.

Of course if it works out cheaper to build new, and nobody wants a cascaded set, the ROSCO might scrap them. But, let's not keep saying they are dead and buried, as it's bloody tiresome.

I ride 317s on GTR and AGA almost daily and they get me from A to B and, touch wood, in over a year of using AGA I've not yet had a single train I've been on fail, and just one train cancelled - but that was offset by the next day having a train delayed a few minutes which let me get an earlier service I'd normally never be able to connect with.

Sure, most of the rants are from people on the GEML, and my usage is often limited to LST to SRA, but it is so frustrating reading such nonsense from the same small group of people.

I too have been asked to meet up for a drink, but can't imagine how any of these people would act in a pub. Moaning about the seats, the warm beer, demanding a new landlord takes over the pub... Yeah, it would be really worth my time!

 

[ginger]

I agree with you somewhat. The 321's with a very good refurb could see out the decade they have left doing the Harwich, Walton and Southminster branches. If a decent fleet of them were kept being maintained at Clacton with enough of them to ensure any small faults could be fixed instead of needings to be put back into service constantly. I think the mainline needs a fleet of 360 type units be that a new fleet or cascades.

According to certain people though the "skips" are only fit for scrap. They also say that *every* train on GEML should be a class 1 headcode (including all Harwich and Walton services) merely because GEML serves the city. And by that notion GEML should always have a new fleet to be cascaded to less important lines. I mean the pure arrogance of that is astonishing. Yes GEML has not had the investment it deserves which will hopefully be rectified next year but to say that every train should be a class 1 headcode and have the newest best stock is frankly ridiculous. Considering the patchwork quilt GEML has for infrastructure I rather think the emphasis should be placed more on Network Rail to get it sorted, as even a completely brand new fleet wont speed up journey times or stop the current delays as most are caused by congestion and infrastructure faults.

Interesting Dave - Sam has bothered to meet us all on numerous occasions and, whilst not agreeing on everything, we have had extremely good positive and constructive discussions - ITS CALLED DEBATE - which now culminate in regular meetings with abellio MD - Head of NR East and also now the ERUF......

If you want to continue your personal vendetta against myself and 85k plus regular commuters then that's up to you but we need a voice and WE WILL HAVE ONE!

Just because you don't like that and refuse to join our meetings then that's up to you.....if you continue to have your myopic small minded views then so be it.....we have offered time and time again.....its US the passengers that pay the bills.....

Despite your personal vendetta including personal abuse, unfounded accusations and completely misquoted conversations, we (the greater we who actually pay for the railway) will continue to use ALL means to press for the major investment we all deserve....you simply seem incapable of understanding the bigger picture alas....

despite your "one sided" TOC defence strategy!

Read the feed! The shambles of today was a farce!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Jon - thanks for joining in! I have Burles and Schofield shortly again....plus now sit on the ERUF for one station (with a large local following).......

Have offered time and time again to meet to debate this but get refused.....

Ask Sam - we do it all the time.....people need to be represented and simply are not by ANY of the democratic means available to them....hence Twitter....sorry its sarcastic, its volume it reaches the masses and it works in this day and age...

Actually I make NO apologies for using it to get ALL the major and DAILY issues highlighted.....many of us have been fobbed off for years!!! Whilst the DFT and their "anointed" TOCs have sucked out over £1.3bn in the past 11 years!

Its our turn!!!!

Ask the masses!

Still happy to meet you and Dave to discuss and debate!

 

[Clarence Yard]

The cost of new build compared to refurbishing the 317/321 to a standard that a) will make them reliable into the mid 2020's and b) acceptable to the public that travel in them/DfT is going to an interesting comparison.

The balance between the two is not clear cut and the bidders will have to not only work on their own figures but also game what their rivals are going to do. With passenger numbers rising, more stock is obviously going to be required and if you have to build some as new, then the bigger the order, the cheaper the price.

With their dismal failure to keep the units clean and reliable (I was on a particularly poor 321 last week) the current operators are treading water and even teaming up with Stagecoach, who know a thing or to about clean and reliable units, may not save them. They are becoming as politically toxic as FG were with FCC.

 

[jon0844]

It will indeed come down to people doing the numbers and likely working with TOCs and the DfT to establish if there would be a place for these refurbished trains to remain in service for 10 years or whatever.

All of these meetings are no doubt taking place, and have been since the demonstrators were created - along with other rolling stock also getting extensions. Heck, even some Pacers!

If you gutted the train and installed all new seating, lighting, USB ports, Wi-Fi, air con and so on - the majority of users wouldn't know it was an old train any more than they do with many of the HSTs. If you've seen inside first class on the 'new' GWR service, even an enthusiast would be doing a double take.

The issue is obviously down to the mechanics, but aren't there plans to upgrade all that anyway. Or, at the very least, you could seek to combine parts from working stock, with new parts, to produce a reduced fleet that is almost as good as new.

We'll have to wait and see. I expect we'll see some of these trains being used elsewhere, or even potentially on some routes within the same franchise area. I'd also imagine the 313s could see a life extension.