Greater Anglia Good and Bad Discussion

[stu227]

I think most stock will be replaced in the new franchise, or some new and some cascaded.

I'd be interested to know what evidential basis you have for that, bearing in mind that there's nothing (that I can see) which suggests it in the franchise prospectus?

It strikes me that the only real hope you have is that on the basis the franchise is 8-11 years, even the finest re-furb will probably not make it to 2027...

 

[dosxuk]

Or that but either way the GEML and west Anglia routes are badly neglected and need new rolling stock as part of a new franchise but will probably not happen

I'd love to see you put all the lines in an order of neglect... There's plenty of 80s rolling stock across the country - GA isn't anywhere near the top of a list showing average oldest stock vs TOC.

 

[HH]

I'd be interested to know what evidential basis you have for that, bearing in mind that there's nothing (that I can see) which suggests it in the franchise prospectus?

It strikes me that the only real hope you have is that on the basis the franchise is 8-11 years, even the finest re-furb will probably not make it to 2027...

A re-furb could easily last until 2027, unfortunately. The good old 'dusty bins' could be with us a fair while longer.

I see two good reasons why it might be so:

1. Georgie Porgie's 25-40% cuts - transport is not excluded

2. DfT no longer want to give S.54s; this will most likely prevent the striking of similar deals to that done on ScotRail, where the finance house rates were not only considerably cheaper than ROSCO's, but they will sell the fleet to TS for £1 at the end of 25 years. This may well swing the numbers against new stock.

 

[Dan27]

I'd love to see you put all the lines in an order of neglect... There's plenty of 80s rolling stock across the country - GA isn't anywhere near the top of a list showing average oldest stock vs TOC.

According to this information GA rates 5th out of 21 TOCs with the oldest average age of rolling stock, rather contradicting your post.

 

[jopsuk]

GA's average fleet age will have gone down somewhat in May- the fleet was made smaller by the loss of the 1980 CLass 315s and some mid-80s 317s

 

[Max 1986]

And GA the only ones with no new rolling stock planned. It's a disgrace.

 

[Darandio]

And GA the only ones with no new rolling stock planned. It's a disgrace.

Only?

 

[Dave1987]

And GA the only ones with no new rolling stock planned. It's a disgrace.

Well firstly you are wrong, AGA are far from the only one with no new rolling stock ordered. Secondly new rolling stock is pretty certain to be part of the next franchise, GEML will likely have to newest fleet in country soon. I know that some people on Twitter believe GEML should always have the newest fleet in the country. But don't let the facts get in the way of a good old rant will you.

 

[450.emu]

I find nothing wrong with Greater Anglia's stock, but sadly the TOC are hanstrung by the crap infrastructure of 1950's OHLE that frequently breaks, and not enough track capacity (i.e between Norwich and London, having to share with freight and slower trains). If they are refurbing stuff and starting to get their house in order, that's good. Brand new trains will still suffer like older ones unless they increase capacity on GEML, like additional tracks between Chelmsford - Norwich.

 

[Max 1986]

Well firstly you are wrong, AGA are far from the only one with no new rolling stock ordered. Secondly new rolling stock is pretty certain to be part of the next franchise, GEML will likely have to newest fleet in country soon. I know that some people on Twitter believe GEML should always have the newest fleet in the country. But don't let the facts get in the way of a good old rant will you.

Can you explain on where you have got that information from as i recall there is no mention of new stock whatsoever as yet........... Also the people on Twitter are highlighting the constant issues faced by passenges daily under Abellios franchise so i dont see the harm personally.

 

[stu227]

Can you explain on where you have got that information from as i recall there is no mention of new stock whatsoever as yet...........

Exactly - that's the second time I've seen someone say that GEML will get new trains in the next franchise without any evidence whatsoever to suggest it'll happen.

 

[Max 1986]

Exactly - that's the second time I've seen someone say that GEML will get new trains in the next franchise without any evidence whatsoever to suggest it'll happen.

Just spouting rubbish - There is no proof and if i remember correctly Dave is the same person from Twitter who was arguing that the trains should not be scrapped and that GEML doesnt need new trains yet somehow he has changed to say we will now have the newest fleet in the country - Explain Dave???

 

[Darandio]

Just spouting rubbish

Exactly like when you claimed GA are the only ones that haven't got new stock planned. Want to explain that one?

As noted above, don't let the facts get in the way of a good rant.

 

[samuelmorris]

Higher fleet ages than Greater Anglia in that table:

First Capital Connect (now GTR/GN): New stock already provided, more on its way, average fleet age will be <10 years by the end of the decade.

East Coast (now VTEC): New stock already ordered, average fleet age will be <10 years by end of the decade.

First Great Western: New stock already ordered, average fleet age will drop considerably within 5 years with EMU->DMU cascades and replacement of large portion of HST fleet

Merseyrail: No plans that I am aware of for new stock

Northern Rail: New build stock and converted stock - fleet age unlikely to decrease but quality to (arguably) be improved - fleet age was lower than Greater Anglia in 2013 but removal of some 317s and all 315s by my rough maths brings the fleet age down 3 years, at which point Northern's is now higher.

Assuming a new partial fleet turns up (I'd be very surprised if all 130 pre-privatisation EMUs are replaced as well as the IC fleet in the next franchise) then GA will be better off than Northern, Merseyrail remains to be seen, but I'm not sure whether they'll overtake any other TOCs until I see the size of the order. The order which, I agree most think is a foregone conclusion, has not happened yet.

 

[jon0844]

As I've said before, there will be discussions with ROSCOs on whether it's financially viable to refurbish existing trains and keep them in service for nn more years, but then still have to procure new trains within the franchise term.

Or, get a new fleet (or some cascades, like the Mk4s from VTEC) early on. The old stock might still get upgraded, but only to be leased elsewhere.

We're not privy to that information or the costings, although could potentially guestimate a lot of it.

I suspect those that bid will be coming up with proposals for new trains (new not necessarily meaning brand new) and would be amazed if they planned on simply keeping the existing trains and running them even further into the ground. Some of the trains do need a lot of work (and I've never denied that, contrary to what some of the anti-AGA posters have said) and I think the bidders will seek to get rid.

Any bidder will have to consider the issue of rolling stock if not at the start, somewhere during the franchise. Thus, I expect they'll act early on and seek to win on the basis of bringing new trains to the area. It would be mad not to.

Nobody knows what First proposed to do with the 313s on GN when they bit for the TSGN franchise, with rumours for some time that they would make them permanent 6-car formation and refurbish them, but if they did, I'm sure that didn't help when GoVia proposed an all-new fleet.

Let's wait and see.

 

[samuelmorris]

I think due to it being a proper length franchise it'd be commercial suicide not to propose at least some form of new rolling stock - something happening is a given, and I think replacement fleet for Norwich is going to be very likely. The main EMU fleet though is entirely up in the air - given that the political enthusiasm for investment in railways seems to have dropped a little bit, I'd be amazed if a wholesale fleet replacement of 317s and 321s which I imagine would probably cost somewhere in the region of £800m would be proposed by any of the bidders. Worst case all the EMUs end up being refurbished, most likely case I suspect more will be ordered for additional capacity but most of the old 321s and 317s will be kept around. If they're smart perhaps as additional electrification continues they'll keep the follow-on options open so they can order more to release cascaded units to wherever the wires go up elsewhere in the country.

 

[HH]

Nobody knows what First proposed to do with the 313s on GN when they bit for the TSGN franchise, with rumours for some time that they would make them permanent 6-car formation and refurbish them, but if they did, I'm sure that didn't help when GoVia proposed an all-new fleet.

I suspect that Govia were the only bidders that went for a new fleet.

 

[Max 1986]

Exactly like when you claimed GA are the only ones that haven't got new stock planned. Want to explain that one?

As noted above, don't let the facts get in the way of a good rant.

One of the only ones then and can anyone shows where AGA are going to have new stock like its being spouted on here??

There is to many hypocrites on here stating AGA dont need new stock then saying they do and providing absolutely no evidence

 

[jon0844]

Let's please put this to rest.

Myself and others have pointed out that the 317s are not skips that are unfit for purpose and need to be scrapped, but nobody has said they're in good condition (poor maintenance, shortage of parts etc) and don't need work.

I've said, as others have, that a proper refurbishment, new traction and so on could give these another 10-15 years. And people seem happy with what LO has done on the 315s and 317s, which is minimal, so further proof that some TLC can make even the current stock look more loved.

I believe that one way or another, the ROSCOs will update the fleet and if they don't stay, they'll move on. And by being overhauled, the ROSCO will be able to still lease for good money and will be happy.

Some might need to be scrapped, but there's a LOT of trains there. I am sure they can mix and match as necessary to build a standardised fleet of really good, reliable, comfortable and modern looking trains.

So, nobody has said AGA users deserve the trains to be run into the ground as is happening - but they're NOT fit for scrap just yet, or certainly not most of them. The 321s are just the same as the 317s, and also have plenty of life in them SOMEWHERE.

Who knows what will happen with the 315s or even the 313s. Most likely for scrap, but you never know.

 

[Max 1986]

Let's please put this to rest.

Myself and others have pointed out that the 317s are not skips that are unfit for purpose and need to be scrapped, but nobody has said they're in good condition (poor maintenance, shortage of parts etc) and don't need work.

I've said, as others have, that a proper refurbishment, new traction and so on could give these another 10-15 years. And people seem happy with what LO has done on the 315s and 317s, which is minimal, so further proof that some TLC can make even the current stock look more loved.

I believe that one way or another, the ROSCOs will update the fleet and if they don't stay, they'll move on. And by being overhauled, the ROSCO will be able to still lease for good money and will be happy.

Some might need to be scrapped, but there's a LOT of trains there. I am sure they can mix and match as necessary to build a standardised fleet of really good, reliable, comfortable and modern looking trains.

So, nobody has said AGA users deserve the trains to be run into the ground as is happening - but they're NOT fit for scrap just yet, or certainly not most of them. The 321s are just the same as the 317s, and also have plenty of life in them SOMEWHERE.

Who knows what will happen with the 315s or even the 313s. Most likely for scrap, but you never know.

It will never be put to bed until passengers know whats going on.

The stock has been so far run into the ground there is no rescuing them. Scrap them and put a brand new fleet on the line. A few seat covers does not cover there appaling maintenance nor does painting luggage racks and handles.

 

[samuelmorris]

The stock has been so far run into the ground there is no rescuing them. Scrap them and put a brand new fleet on the line. A few seat covers does not cover there appaling maintenance nor does painting luggage racks and handles.

Now that just isn't true and you know it. Replacement seat covers and repainted grabrails are 'minimalist maintenance' - enough to offer a visible improvement to the passenger but no improvement to the mechanicals of the train or the user experience in general, other than undoing neglect. There is no reason why the entire Class 317 and 321 fleet can't be re-tractioned, have the interiors gutted and refitted [see: SouthWest Trains Class 455/456] and so on. The sticking points are that fitting plug doors and new traction systems to these units may be too expensive given the cost of new rolling stock - plus the fact that the bodies will not allow running speeds over 100mph so would cause timetabling issues if running alongside newer stock running at higher speeds.

To say even the worst examples of the 317 and 321 fleet are fit for nothing but the scrapyard, though, is just nonsense. No matter how bad they've got, they can be put right, it just requires actual time and money being spent on them rather than the cursory job they're being given at present to keep them in service but nothing more.

 

[Dave1987]

It will never be put to bed until passengers know whats going on.

The stock has been so far run into the ground there is no rescuing them. Scrap them and put a brand new fleet on the line. A few seat covers does not cover there appaling maintenance nor does painting luggage racks and handles.

Ow the standard Twitter line there, scrap everything and spend £2bn on a new fleet every 10 yrs. if it's older than 10 yrs cascade it somewhere else.

 

[jon0844]

It will never be put to bed until passengers know whats going on.

The stock has been so far run into the ground there is no rescuing them. Scrap them and put a brand new fleet on the line. A few seat covers does not cover there appaling maintenance nor does painting luggage racks and handles.

I disagree. You're talking about a refresh that falls far short of the type of refurbishment work that the Pacers are getting, the HSTs got, the Mk4s got, the current Eurostars are getting (boy do they look good) and so on.

Don't mix the two things up. A refresh is cheap and quick, and means the ROSCO won't need to fully comply with new regulations (like fitting accessible toilets). A proper refurbishment will be pretty much stripping everything down to a bare metal tube and starting over, with the idea that it's cheaper than building a new train from scratch.

Obviously being able to re-use certain components helps decide if it's financially viable or not. I believe it probably is, but perhaps at the expense of a number of trains due to cannibalising the worst examples.

 

[Max 1986]

Now that just isn't true and you know it. Replacement seat covers and repainted grabrails are 'minimalist maintenance' - enough to offer a visible improvement to the passenger but no improvement to the mechanicals of the train or the user experience in general, other than undoing neglect. There is no reason why the entire Class 317 and 321 fleet can't be re-tractioned, have the interiors gutted and refitted [see: SouthWest Trains Class 455/456] and so on. The sticking points are that fitting plug doors and new traction systems to these units may be too expensive given the cost of new rolling stock - plus the fact that the bodies will not allow running speeds over 100mph so would cause timetabling issues if running alongside newer stock running at higher speeds.

To say even the worst examples of the 317 and 321 fleet are fit for nothing but the scrapyard, though, is just nonsense. No matter how bad they've got, they can be put right, it just requires actual time and money being spent on them rather than the cursory job they're being given at present to keep them in service but nothing more.

Thats exactly it. The class 317';s are 30-34 years old and your on about refubing them for another 15 years? Do me a favour really.

We need a new fleet not 50 year old wrecks carting us around and if that did ever happen we would have no fleet by that point given abellio's track record of destruction. To sum up we would be better of with a horse and cart.

 

[jon0844]

To say even the worst examples of the 317 and 321 fleet are fit for nothing but the scrapyard, though, is just nonsense. No matter how bad they've got, they can be put right, it just requires actual time and money being spent on them rather than the cursory job they're being given at present to keep them in service but nothing more.

Perhaps someone needs to pop over to use the 317s and 321s on GTR and see that they're just fine. The 317s perhaps need some TLC, but seem reliable (probably down to the hard work from the guys at Hornsey over Ilford) and the 321s look very nice inside, complete with a brand new screens and CCTV.

First class on the 321s is arguably nicer than both the 317s and 365s in terms of comfort and space. No power sockets or Wi-Fi, but mobile coverage is pretty good on the ECML and anyone with any sense these days owns a portable battery charger.

 

[samuelmorris]

The age of the rolling stock is a complete non-entity here, it's just a convenient fact that highlights lack of investment. When I travel on one of VTEC (or Great Western for that matter)'s HSTs I don't think 'god damn, why do I have to do all these miles on one of these 35 year old skips' because they've actually been looked after fairly well. The fact that they're higher-grade stock is largely irrelevant. They're still trains designed and built in the 1970s and through use of modern technology, maintenance and cleaning regimes they're nicer to travel on now than they were when they were new. For the Abellio EMUs that's not even true of the 360s which while at long last getting some new questionably-coloured seat covers, the carpets are still vile and all the interior panels covered in marks that show how much of a hard life they've had.

Frankly, the 317s could easily be in the state they're in now if they were built in 2001 rather than 1981. They are what they are because they're not looked after properly. If they were modernised with new interiors and looked after, passengers would think they were 'new trains' (they even thought that about the Mk3 hauled sets when they took over from the Anglia Mk2s can you believe) and if the new traction packages were given proper testing before rollout they could prove much more reliable too. Nobody would give a damn they were 40 years old by then, as they'd be nice to travel in and the number of failures would come down.

New trains would be lovely, but in the current climate of railway spending being extensively scrutinised there's no way I could possibly be supportive of sending 80s EMUs to the scrapheap given all the alternatives.

 

[Max 1986]

Perhaps someone needs to pop over to use the 317s and 321s on GTR and see that they're just fine. The 317s perhaps need some TLC, but seem reliable (probably down to the hard work from the guys at Hornsey over Ilford) and the 321s look very nice inside, complete with a brand new screens and CCTV.

First class on the 321s is arguably nicer than both the 317s and 365s in terms of comfort and space. No power sockets or Wi-Fi, but mobile coverage is pretty good on the ECML and anyone with any sense these days owns a portable battery charger.

I dont call train fault after train fault reliable and clearly they have had no TLC.

Wheres the multi million pound clean up that was supposed to happen because if anything its getting worse. Its just lip service to dig themselves out of a hole.

GA first class is a non-starter its a disgrace.

 

[samuelmorris]

I must admit I'd rather see first class taken off the 321s if they aren't going to be properly tarted up. If they gain a 360-style first class section fine, but the quality of the FC section on 321s now is laughable, even when in good condition, it's just a waste of a few seat spaces. Not versed on first class ticket revenues for non-loco hauled stations though, so unsure whether that'd be a noticeable revenue loss or not.

 

[jon0844]

The AGA 'versions' are not good in comparison. Obviously Wayne, Ian and the million aliases now registered on this forum still think that I keep saying they (actually, we, as I use AGA weekly too) should suffer these trains forever.

 

[CC 72100]

The stock has been so far run into the ground there is no rescuing them. Scrap them and put a brand new fleet on the line.

How much extra do you want to pay on top of your normal ticket price then?