Greater Anglia Rolling Stock Updates

[LAX54]

If there is no bi-di between Manningtree North and Manningtree Station South there is 3 single points of failure getting trains out of that depot, that will do wonders for capacity and PPM. :roll:

We have suggested that the back platform at Manningtree is re-instated, at least for ECS moves, recall back in the 90's 312's being in there.

 

[oliMw]

I like the look of the new trains, the FLIRTS especially are an upgrade for the rural network and the aventras seem similar to the stock on suburban servies right now. However only time will tell what they are like to travel on in real life

 

[43074]

https://www.gov.uk/government/uploa...9202/east-anglia-2016-franchise-agreement.pdf

The franchise agreement has been published and between pp172 - 179 and pp284 - 312 gives details of changes to the fleet.
The existing DMU fleet will be leaving the franchise between August and December 2019, loco hauled on 01/01/2020 and 317 & 321 units before the end of 2019, 360 & 379 by August 2020.
The incoming 317s (from Great Northern) are primarily for strengthening to Hertford East and will be refurbished by the Autumn.
There is also an extensive range of modifications being made to the existing fleet, as well as an interesting clause suggesting off-lease 319s are the back up for the late arrival of the new stock.
I'm surprised by the capacity of the 10-car Aventras though - 1145 seats hock:

 

[Kite159]

1145 narrow seats in 3+2 layout, so the chances of all 1145 seats getting used are low as nobody ever wants to sit in the middle seat.

 

[D365]

I'm surprised by the capacity of the 10-car Aventras though - 1145 seats hock:

Don't forget that they will apparently be 3+2s

 

[43074]

The capacity of a 12-car 321/3 is 876 though, that's a huge increase by comparison.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The capacity of a 12-car 321/3 is 876 though, that's a huge increase by comparison.

Must be *very* high density...3+2 airline anyone?

801 on a 12.350/2, which is about the highest density 3+2 that is even vaguely acceptable.

 

[TheDavibob]

Must be *very* high density...3+2 airline anyone?

No indication of that on the consultation photographs, so if that were to happen I imagine there would be riots. My only real experience of 3+2 is the bays of the 323s, from which you can always at least get out. I think I'd rather stand (for however many hours we're talking) than sit in the middle of 3 airline seats.

 

[Bletchleyite]

No indication of that on the consultation photographs, so if that were to happen I imagine there would be riots. My only real experience of 3+2 is the bays of the 323s, from which you can always at least get out. I think I'd rather stand (for however many hours we're talking) than sit in the middle of 3 airline seats.

Quite possibly just a mistake then. Yeah, the Class 150/2 (the only train I can think of that has airline seats in 3+2 arrangement rather than just the 2 side) is *grim*.

 

[Mordac]

Page 298 mentions they will be installing C-DAS to the 317s, 321s, 360s, 379s and 90s (and I assume their DVTs too, although that is not mentioned). I hope this actually means the C part will be in use, rather than just future-proofing. It mentions cooperation with Network Rail, so I'm mildly optimistic. If operational, would this be the first deployment in the UK mainline?

 

[chubs]

Any update on the damaged 170?

 

[Wivenswold]

1175 seats on a 10 coach? Lordy.

The latest figure I'd seen was in the 900s. Something must have changed. I hope the recent rumour about them having no toilets doesn't turn out to be true. They'll forever stink of wee.

BTW The middle seats are always used from London in the evening peaks unless there's someone of considerable girth sat in one of the other two.

 

[Bletchleyite]

It's funny how middle-seat culture differs from line to line. On the WCML order of preference is definitely to stand over take the middle unless travelling with the middle seat passenger. The middles only then go to any significant extent when standing is so packed it is uncomfortable.

 

[Wivenswold]

Interesting Neil, maybe we're a bit more gregarious in Essex? Or maybe it's because we had slammers more recently with their bench seats, so most of our commuters are more used to squashing in.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Interesting Neil, maybe we're a bit more gregarious in Essex? Or maybe it's because we had slammers more recently with their bench seats, so most of our commuters are more used to squashing in.

Possibly so, while we had 3+2 321s before, we now rather like our 350/1 and 350/3s with 2+2.

 

[TheEdge]

Any update on the damaged 170?

It IS coming back soon, it will be a 3 car. It will spend a short while around the rural network before being sent off for its C6.

 

[D365]

The latest figure I'd seen was in the 900s. Something must have changed. I hope the recent rumour about them having no toilets doesn't turn out to be true. They'll forever stink of wee.

Maybe SpacePhoenix's idea (one I seem to recall) of "pop-up toilets" has actually come true!

 

[F Great Eastern]

I'm surprised by the capacity of the 10-car Aventras though - 1145 seats hock:

Remember all that matters is Abellio get the press for FULL FLEET REPLACEMENT

Abellio couldn't care less about peoples comfort

FULL FLEET REPLACEMENT remember FULL FLEET REPLACEMENT.

At the end of the day many corners are being cut and I said this from day one, they have gone for all style and PR but no substance by replacing all of the stock, including a lot that did not need replacement, on the cheap because they have gone for quantity and a FULL FLEET REPLACEMENT over quality and comfort of the passengers.

All what will happen is that we are going to see a regional DMU style train as used on the regional lines also used on the Stansted Express and Norwich runs rather than a proper Intercity Unit that should have been proposed and keeping the 379s on the Stansted Express.

AND

Sardine like conditions on the commuter fleet with 3+2 seating throughout with a 30% increase in number of passengers carried without much of an increase in train length when it comes to 10 car new train vs 12 car old which will be vastly inferior to the 360/379 trains.

AND

When the whole thing goes tits up because it's far too ambitious, to save a few more pennies instead of keeping on the 360s and the 379s they are going to go for the 319s instead because that no doubt is much cheaper for them because nobody will want the 319s because they are knackered.

It's so laughable, the DFT have a lot to answer for here, allowing a bid which appears to be based on delivering the most amount of headline grabbing PR for Abellio but when you look at the details, it's full of cut corners, deadlines which are not going to be delivered on and a substantial downgrade of comfort for many passengers who will see comfortable mid-life commuter trains replaced with cramped brand new ones, all in the name of vanity for Abellio.

At the end of the day they could have ordered less trains and kept some of the current stock on and delivered a quality on-board environment on the new trains by increasing the spend per train saved from ordering less of them, instead we have a vanity exercise where the budget has been stretched to order additional trains which were not needed, which will be far inferior to the trains that they are going to be replacing.

It's nuts, sabotaging the standard of the trains that did need replacing, by trying to extend the budget to order more trains to replace trains that the new deliveries will be inferior to.

 

[CosherB]

Remember all that matters is Abellio get the press for FULL FLEET REPLACEMENT

Abellio couldn't care less about peoples comfort

FULL FLEET REPLACEMENT remember FULL FLEET REPLACEMENT.

At the end of the day many corners are being cut and I said this from day one, they have gone for all style and PR but no substance by replacing all of the stock, including a lot that did not need replacement, on the cheap because they have gone for quantity and a FULL FLEET REPLACEMENT over quality and comfort of the passengers.

All what will happen is that we are going to see a regional DMU style train as used on the regional lines also used on the Stansted Express and Norwich runs rather than a proper Intercity Unit that should have been proposed and keeping the 379s on the Stansted Express.

AND

Sardine like conditions on the commuter fleet with 3+2 seating throughout with a 30% increase in number of passengers carried without much of an increase in train length when it comes to 10 car new train vs 12 car old which will be vastly inferior to the 360/379 trains.

AND

When the whole thing goes tits up because it's far too ambitious, to save a few more pennies instead of keeping on the 360s and the 379s they are going to go for the 319s instead because that no doubt is much cheaper for them because nobody will want the 319s because they are knackered.

It's so laughable, the DFT have a lot to answer for here, allowing a bid which appears to be based on delivering the most amount of headline grabbing PR for Abellio but when you look at the details, it's full of cut corners, deadlines which are not going to be delivered on and a substantial downgrade of comfort for many passengers who will see comfortable mid-life commuter trains replaced with cramped brand new ones, all in the name of vanity for Abellio.

At the end of the day they could have ordered less trains and kept some of the current stock on and delivered a quality on-board environment on the new trains by increasing the spend per train saved from ordering less of them, instead we have a vanity exercise where the budget has been stretched to order additional trains which were not needed, which will be far inferior to the trains that they are going to be replacing.

It's nuts, sabotaging the standard of the trains that did need replacing, by trying to extend the budget to order more trains to replace trains that the new deliveries will be inferior to.

Cheer up fella, the new trains might actually work. :roll:

 

[Bletchleyite]

In reply to F Great Eastern on the subject of the FLIRT, it's a flexible platform for a train up to 110mph-ish. It is not "regional DMU-style", what style it is depends how you spec it. SBB have regional ones. PKP have high-floor InterCity ones. Etc.

It's like calling a Class 444 a regional DMU-style train, which it really isn't, it's an InterCity style train with end doors, 2+2 seating and a (disused) buffet. Or for that matter a Wessie.

 

[EssexGonzo]

To be honest, in most of the current 3+2 321s, coming out of London, the middle seat squash only has to be endured between Liverpool St and Shenfield or Stratford and Shenfield, so between 18 and 25 minutes. Enough passengers get off at Shenfield to vacate the middle seats.

Going the other way - I'd estimate that the middle seats often fill up at Chelmsford or Billericay only between 7am and 8am, leaving standing only at Shenfield. Again, plenty get off at Stratford so the 3 seat squeeze never really materialises for a longer journey.

 

[pemma]

1145 narrow seats in 3+2 layout, so the chances of all 1145 seats getting used are low as nobody ever wants to sit in the middle seat.

A 4 car 333 has 360 seats in 3+2 formation and that's using carriages 23.5m in length. That would be equivalent to no more than 1000 seats on a 10 car set even if the redundant cabs were eliminated.

 

[3141]

https://www.gov.uk/government/uploa...9202/east-anglia-2016-franchise-agreement.pdf

I'm surprised by the capacity of the 10-car Aventras though - 1145 seats hock:

10-coach train, 1145 seats, 114.5 seats per coach. Let’s round up to 115.
3+2 means rows of five, 115 divided by 5 = 23 rows.

23 metre coaches, let’s say the doorways are 1.6m. wide, 2 doorways = 3.2 m., deduct from overall coach length = 19.8 metres.

19.8m. divided by 23 rows = 0.86 meters, which is 33.8 inches. Better than many airlines.

However, if the rows adjacent to the vestibules and those at the end of each coach are 2 + 2 we lose eight seats, so we need two more rows. 19.8 divided by 25 = 0.79 = 31 inches. Not so good, but no worse than economy class on a Virgin Atlantic Boeing 747-400 (a website tells me).

It will be a bit less than that as I haven’t allowed for the end walls of the coach or for the thickness of internal bulkheads. In particular, I haven’t allowed for driving cabs, which may or may not be additional to the basic coach length. And if the doorways are wider than I’ve allowed, the seat pitch will be reduced further.

 

[Alfie1014]

10-coach train, 1145 seats, 114.5 seats per coach. Let’s round up to 115.
3+2 means rows of five, 115 divided by 5 = 23 rows.

23 metre coaches, let’s say the doorways are 1.6m. wide, 2 doorways = 3.2 m., deduct from overall coach length = 19.8 metres.

19.8m. divided by 23 rows = 0.86 meters, which is 33.8 inches. Better than many airlines.

However, if the rows adjacent to the vestibules and those at the end of each coach are 2 + 2 we lose eight seats, so we need two more rows. 19.8 divided by 25 = 0.79 = 31 inches. Not so good, but no worse than economy class on a Virgin Atlantic Boeing 747-400 (a website tells me).

It will be a bit less than that as I haven’t allowed for the end walls of the coach or for the thickness of internal bulkheads. In particular, I haven’t allowed for driving cabs, which may or may not be additional to the basic coach length. And if the doorways are wider than I’ve allowed, the seat pitch will be reduced further.

The cabs aren't additional and take up about 3.5 meters at each end, plus you loose about 1/3 of one coach for the disabled toilet and wheelchair spaces, so that's about 15 meters lost. Then you've two ordinary toilets and priority seats (about 10% of total) which can only be 2+2, so in my view its going to be very tight. And don't forget that with no First class there'll be no opportunity to pay for more comfort on services up to two hours in length, (slow Norwich, peak Kings Lynn). These might be fine for 45 minutes to Southend Vic but less so for longer distance journeys.The renders suggest that the seats will be the much derided Fainsa style as well.

 

[F Great Eastern]

Cheer up fella, the new trains might actually work. :roll:

They might work? All that stock and a FULL FLEET REPLACEMENT introduced at once and don't worry, when it all goes horribly wrong we'll get a 319 instead because at the end of the day who cares about what train they give us, long as they get the FULL FLEET REPLACEMENT headlines, who cares about the details, we just went the headlines, passengers? Pah, they don't matter, look at all the headlines we got in the paper, look at how the MP's can say they delivered.

Absolute joke. The People of East Anglia deserve so much better and not to be the victim of a vanity exercise by Abellio who have decided that they will go for all the plaudits of some statements to hide the fact that they are building a budget fleet with more corners cut than an off-road racer, which will not be delivered on time, the back-up plans involve decrepit, knackered rolling stock chosen on the basis of price and the fact nobody else wants them.

The simple fact is that for a large amount of passengers who currently travel on the 360/379 services, the new trains are going to be a substantial downgrade of comfort on what has existed before them, all in the name of vanity of a company who has decided that their own image and quantity is far more important than quality in their big based on trains shopping in the bargain basement aisle in attempt to stretch a budget to include as many trains as possible, regardless of the consequences for the traveling public.

The simple fact is that by not replacing the 360/379 fleet, they could have used the saved money on a better specification of train to replace the other stock which truly needed to be replaced because it is life expired or no longer adequate to serve the needs of the people of East Anglia. Unfortunately that wouldn't give them the headlines they were after so they didn't do it.

The whole idea of replacing the 360/379 fleet is quite frankly bonkers as well, because the simple fact is the new trains being ordered to replace them will be less comfortable, of lower quality and sardine like seat pitches just so they can say they replaced every train in the entire fleet, it is the height of stupidity and everyone in East Anglia is going to have to suffer for years to come.

By doing a full fleet replacement, they are reducing the amount of money that can be spent on the trains that need replacement by specifying ultra-cheap seats because they stretched the budget to pay for a further batch of commuter trains of trains that will be worse for passengers than the Electrostars and Desiros that they will replace, it really does not make sense at all, everybody loses out apart from Abellio and their vanity exercise

Be far better to order less and keep the 360/379s, it would allow a higher spend per unit on the FLIRTS and suitable seating, better spec Aventuras whilst also meaning that lose who currently have 360/379 services will not have their comfort downgraded.

But as I said, who cares about comfort and the passengers, they just want the press.

 

[CosherB]

They might work? All that stock and a FULL FLEET REPLACEMENT introduced at once and don't worry, when it all goes horribly wrong we'll get a 319 instead because at the end of the day who cares about what train they give us, long as they get the FULL FLEET REPLACEMENT headlines, who cares about the details, we just went the headlines, passengers? Pah, they don't matter, look at all the headlines we got in the paper, look at how the MP's can say they delivered.

Absolute joke. The People of East Anglia deserve so much better and not to be the victim of a vanity exercise by Abellio who have decided that they will go for all the plaudits of some statements to hide the fact that they are building a budget fleet with more corners cut than an off-road racer, which will not be delivered on time, the back-up plans involve decrepit, knackered rolling stock chosen on the basis of price and the fact nobody else wants them.

The simple fact is that for a large amount of passengers who currently travel on the 360/379 services, the new trains are going to be a substantial downgrade of comfort on what has existed before them, all in the name of vanity of a company who has decided that their own image and quantity is far more important than quality in their big based on trains shopping in the bargain basement aisle in attempt to stretch a budget to include as many trains as possible, regardless of the consequences for the traveling public.

The simple fact is that by not replacing the 360/379 fleet, they could have used the saved money on a better specification of train to replace the other stock which truly needed to be replaced because it is life expired or no longer adequate to serve the needs of the people of East Anglia. Unfortunately that wouldn't give them the headlines they were after so they didn't do it.

The whole idea of replacing the 360/379 fleet is quite frankly bonkers as well, because the simple fact is the new trains being ordered to replace them will be less comfortable, of lower quality and sardine like seat pitches just so they can say they replaced every train in the entire fleet, it is the height of stupidity and everyone in East Anglia is going to have to suffer for years to come.

By doing a full fleet replacement, they are reducing the amount of money that can be spent on the trains that need replacement by specifying ultra-cheap seats because they stretched the budget to pay for a further batch of commuter trains of trains that will be worse for passengers than the Electrostars and Desiros that they will replace, it really does not make sense at all, everybody loses out apart from Abellio and their vanity exercise

Be far better to order less and keep the 360/379s, it would allow a higher spend per unit on the FLIRTS and suitable seating, better spec Aventuras whilst also meaning that lose who currently have 360/379 services will not have their comfort downgraded.

But as I said, who cares about comfort and the passengers, they just want the press.

That's a very long answer to repeat what you've already stated.

Why the use of caps? :roll:

 

[F Great Eastern]

In reply to F Great Eastern on the subject of the FLIRT, it's a flexible platform for a train up to 110mph-ish. It is not "regional DMU-style", what style it is depends how you spec it. SBB have regional ones. PKP have high-floor InterCity ones. Etc.

The Flirt is an Excellent train in the right specification but the specification that Greater Anglia have gone for is not anything like high end or even mid-end and their seating choice is laughable and is no way fit for the purpose they are going to use it for.

People are going to be in for a rude awakening when they get to sit in them, there is a reason that all the other seat options in a FLIRT cost more and this seat is the cheapest one that was on the options list apparently.....

I care about the comfort of trains rather than a pack them all in whilst we look great to the media mentality that Abellio are showing, I'm sorry if you don't but I will have to sit on one on a regular basis so it matters to me.

It's laughable that people are moaning about the FAINSA seats on the commuter runs being uncomfortable, but see no problems with an even cheaper and thinner seat on the Intercity services.

You're all going to have a rude awakening.

(from someone who has sat on a LEAN seat)

 

[F Great Eastern]

That's a very long answer to repeat what you've already stated.

Why the use of caps? :roll:

Because essentially that is what Abellio are doing, they are just stating a full fleet replacement to all and sundry to the media but behind all of their shouting about it there is a lot of details that will result in the substantial downgrading of comfort to a lot of passengers within East Anglia because they have gone for quantity over quality.

As I said before, I can't wait for this to go tits up. Every single month more details come out to show yet more corners that have been cut, and every single time people come out on this forum and say that they won't be, only for a short while later a few more corner cuts and sardine like conditions and bargain basement spec details come out.

If you take the Abellio PR machine at face value that is your choice, although it did make me smile they are holding "Consultations" and "Getting Passenger Views" so they can inevitably trot out the lines of "We held consultations and this was not brought up." when people start complaining about the lack of comfort on on-board, despite the fact that the vast majority of the spec was already decided.

 

[CosherB]

Because essentially that is what Abellio are doing, they are just stating a full fleet replacement to all and sundry to the media but behind all of their shouting about it there is a lot of details that will result in the substantial downgrading of comfort to a lot of passengers within East Anglia because they have gone for quantity over quality.

As I said before, I can't wait for this to go tits up. Every single month more details come out to show yet more corners that have been cut, and every single time people come out on this forum and say that they won't be, only for a short while later a few more corner cuts and sardine like conditions and bargain basement spec details come out.

If you take the Abellio PR machine at face value that is your choice, although it did make me smile they are holding "Consultations" and "Getting Passenger Views" so they can inevitably trot out the lines of "We held consultations and this was not brought up." when people start complaining about the lack of comfort on on-board, despite the fact that the vast majority of the spec was already decided.

So not just Mr Angry in IT, but spiteful with it. Impressive.

 

[F Great Eastern]

So not just Mr Angry in IT, but spiteful with it. Impressive.

Unfortunately judging from your location I doubt you will be traveling in these trains every day as part of a commute to work and I actually would like to be able to travel in comfort for my commute which the price of rises every year.

I really was supportive of Abellio in the last five years, but this order is a turning point for me, it's pure lunacy, this region really needed investment in modern rolling stock, I think we all agree with that and this region has been given too many hand-me downs over the years.

The problem is that instead of a sensible investment in good quality, modern rolling stock to improve the travel experience like other franchises, we've instead gone to a replace everything as cheaply as possible where the number one priority was to replace all the stock with the money that they have rather than use the money to introduce as much good quality rolling stock as possible.

When other operators order trains they are often built to a spec they want for their travelers and a comfort level in mind, with Abellio they are built to a price and a number and nothing else matters.