Greater Anglia to install tables on its Stansted Express trains

[Sad Sprinter]

The 360s found use elsewhere, and the 379s would have done sooner if demand hadn't collapsed on GTR.

Is it really any different to Avanti displacing Voyagers by taking on 805s and 807s, or WMR displacing 170s by taking on 196s? Where is the concern that either of those fleet replacements were wasteful?

Voyagers should never have been built anyway. I’m all in favour of replacing diesel with electric.

I’m afraid I have no idea what a class 196 is, I haven’t really kept up with the 3rd gen stock.

I think the difference with the examples you gave is that the 379s were less than 10 years old and now have nowhere to go. To me that’s a waste.

 

[RailWonderer]

Voyagers should never have been built anyway. I’m all in favour of replacing diesel with electric.

I’m afraid I have no idea what a class 196 is, I haven’t really kept up with the 3rd gen stock.

I think the difference with the examples you gave is that the 379s were less than 10 years old and now have nowhere to go. To me that’s a waste.

379s are being cascaded most likely. Voyagers were built when bi-mode technology was in its infancy, and environmental concerns were not big as they are today. Labour advocated against electrification and in favour of biodiesel in their 2007 railway white paper.

 

[Milo T.K]

It seems from what I been told that it should take 10 days for tables to be fitted on the 745s owing that they are doing it at Orient way with 1 carriage a night being done.

 

[physics34]

It is a complete fiasco from start to finish, they have completely spoiled the travelling experiance on both the Stanstead Express and the Norwich Main Line !
Ordered the wrong trains and disposed of the right ones !

Its almost as if railway people should be left to make these decisions not bank managers and MPs. Bad decisions continually on our railway.

 

[chubs]

I don't know how anyone thinks 745s are ideal for InterCity runs compared to the old Mk3s. The intermediate doors spoil that for me. I don't find the seats as comfy as the old IC70s in standard class either. Was never too keen on the IC80s in first class so not much of a downgrade there.

The mk3's second class seats were horrendous. My back ached after 2 hours. The ones on the 745 and 755 are vastly more comfortable.

I also find the carriages superior in every way. Light, bright, airy, warm, comfortable. I haven't found the intermediate doors to detracted from the experience at all. The mk3's looked dated, the vestibule doors barley ever worked, they screeched and squealed in agony along the trip wanting to be put out of their misery providing a draughty noisy unpleasant experience.

I know they were old but even comparing to them in their prime the flirts beat them in every metric.

 

[Sad Sprinter]

379s are being cascaded most likely. Voyagers were built when bi-mode technology was in its infancy, and environmental concerns were not big as they are today. Labour advocated against electrification and in favour of biodiesel in their 2007 railway white paper.

Yes I have a Modern Railways magazine somewhere which mentions that, another future that never happened! Also they were big on hydrogen-fuel cells too. Unfortunately this country loves reinventing the wheel and going back to square one over and over again.

 

[DjU]

Clearly there aren't enough 745s to do the timetable they're planned for, probably need 4 more of each type.

Isn't it a case of there was a (fanciful) expectation that there were enough for Norwich with the yet uncommited and pie in the sky timetable and line speed improvements - seeing a reduction in diagrams. With the occasional stealing of a SX unit or 755 lash up being very rare.

None of that has (and probably was never likely in the short term) meaning the robbing of the SX units and a 755 lash up is more or less vital to daily running.

I think it's inevitable that more 745s will have to be ordered, this is just the first step, next they'll make a decision to either fit first class or remove it from all and have to refit 720s into Stansted express layout followed by an order of 8 to 10 new trains for 'expansion of timetable' (note these would go out to tender and may be a totally different fleet).

I don't think there is any danger of any more 745s being orded - especially with the scenario that there is in the very short term far too many 720s - buying more stock to solve one problem whilst over stock sits unused is more or less a non starter.

Another scenario - although just as unlikely as order more stock but perhaps a smidge more reality - is convert 18-21 (the current deemed surplus) 720s to Airport units (720s sub on the service anyway!), transfer all the 745s to GE side - but fundamentally all you do there is move the massive unit surplus over to the 745s and 755s. You could get round some of this if there was reintroduction of the extra LST-NRW or SMK peaks or sending some up to Clacton in peaks. (It's a shame they never pulled fingers out and ever electrified and upgraded the Ipswich - Peterborough line. As surely somewhere like Bury St Edmunds would be a great place to run extra peaks to in lieu of some Ipswich or Stowmarket terminators - yes I know Haughly Junction and Platforms are other obstacles, hence saying upgraded.)


But ultimately every permutation will require money and that's what kills it all.

 

[H&I]

I know some people have said the travelling experience on the 745s and 755s is not as good as that on the trains they replaced, but I’ll hands down take the FLIRTs any day of the week just because of the level boarding they offer.

 

[wickham]

Well, I think they have made a mess of it (but that is only my opinion) - if you go for "total fleet replacement" and get rid of all the modern oddities you already have, why not order a complete fleet of the same type ? Agreed, the 755s don't come into this argument but in so far as the electric fleet is concerned, why not get a complete fleet of 720s, surely they could be built with different interiors and seating as sub-classes and even with a different number of coaches. You could have had the standard surburban type (like we have), a Stanstead Express veriety with luggage racks and a Norwich Main Line veriety.
Fancy getting a fleet of dedicated Stanstead Express 745s for use between Liverpool Street and Stanstead and then having to base them at Norwich, at completely the other end of the network ! The other thing about the 745s that worries me is the articulation. Surely, the bogies that carry the articulated coach ends are carrying something like twice the weight of a normal bogie (ie: the non-articulated ones). What does this do to the track, and can we expect these things to last for 30 years ??
Perhaps my views are too old fashioned ?

 

[dk1]

Perhaps my views are too old fashioned ?

I think they are

The 745s were ordered to make the bimodal fleet worthwhile for Stadler. Nobody apart from Hitachi were offering bimodes but they couldn't get them built in the time frame.

 

[Adrian1980uk]

Isn't it a case of there was a (fanciful) expectation that there were enough for Norwich with the yet uncommited and pie in the sky timetable and line speed improvements - seeing a reduction in diagrams. With the occasional stealing of a SX unit or 755 lash up being very rare.

None of that has (and probably was never likely in the short term) meaning the robbing of the SX units and a 755 lash up is more or less vital to daily running.


I don't think there is any danger of any more 745s being orded - especially with the scenario that there is in the very short term far too many 720s - buying more stock to solve one problem whilst over stock sits unused is more or less a non starter.

Another scenario - although just as unlikely as order more stock but perhaps a smidge more reality - is convert 18-21 (the current deemed surplus) 720s to Airport units (720s sub on the service anyway!), transfer all the 745s to GE side - but fundamentally all you do there is move the massive unit surplus over to the 745s and 755s. You could get round some of this if there was reintroduction of the extra LST-NRW or SMK peaks or sending some up to Clacton in peaks. (It's a shame they never pulled fingers out and ever electrified and upgraded the Ipswich - Peterborough line. As surely somewhere like Bury St Edmunds would be a great place to run extra peaks to in lieu of some Ipswich or Stowmarket terminators - yes I know Haughly Junction and Platforms are other obstacles, hence saying upgraded.)


But ultimately every permutation will require money and that's what kills it all.

Agreed in the short term but what I was saying is everything they do with the current fleet is a sticking plaster that will cost more in the longer term. Currently they have inconsistent products on the IC and Stansted express and that will continue for the next 10 years would be my guess

 

[Travelmonkey]

I know some people have said the travelling experience on the 745s and 755s is not as good as that on the trains they replaced, but I’ll hands down take the FLIRTs any day of the week just because of the level boarding they offer.

That is one way Staddler are a winner, just a shame their other products are having issues but that's for other threads. I do think there will always be a bit or rose tintinted specs to old stock but the FLRTs offer a good product and ultimately are much different from the other new units from Hitachi in their 800 family and the CAF units.

 

[Adrian1980uk]

That is one way Staddler are a winner, just a shame their other products are having issues but that's for other threads. I do think there will always be a bit or rose tintinted specs to old stock but the FLRTs offer a good product and ultimately are much different from the other new units from Hitachi in their 800 family and the CAF units.

The 745s are ideal for the 2 hour run, probably would be slightly more InterCity style if the internal doors weren't locked out. The issue is that they are very different from the conventional longer distance trains designed for the west coast mainline that we have been used to.

 

[dk1]

The 745s are ideal for the 2 hour run, probably would be slightly more InterCity style if the internal doors weren't locked out. The issue is that they are very different from the conventional longer distance trains designed for the west coast mainline that we have been used to.

Internal doors tend to be working now.

 

[Adrian1980uk]

I've got to admit, I think I was wrong to be sceptical of adding tables to the Stansted express 745s as a cop out by GA but given I'm sat on one, realising GA has to do something to get a vaguely InterCity product out of them.

 

[dk1]

I've got to admit, I think I was wrong to be sceptical of adding tables to the Stansted express 745s as a cop out by GA but given I'm sat on one, realising GA has to do something to get a vaguely InterCity product out of them.

Everybody said not putting them in was wrong and miserly from the time of ordering. Just a shame it’s taken over 4 years to make right that bad decision.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

Everybody said not putting them in was wrong and miserly from the time of ordering. Just a shame it’s taken over 4 years to make right that bad decision.

To begin to make right. IIRC, the announcement suggested it would take absolutely yonks to fit all ten.

 

[dk1]

To begin to make right. IIRC, the announcement suggested it would take absolutely yonks to fit all ten.

Bad news is it’s over a year but the good news is they’ll be done in down time & not removed from traffic.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

Bad news is it’s over a year but the good news is they’ll be done in down time & not removed from traffic.

Yes quite.

 

[Adrian1980uk]

Problem is its a over a year and not righting a bad decision, it's just trying to mitigate 2 bad decisions.

 

[dk1]

Problem is its a over a year and not righting a bad decision, it's just trying to mitigate 2 bad decisions.

It is what it is unfortunately.

 

[Adrian1980uk]

It is what it is unfortunately.

Yes unfortunately, although I think GA could be more forceful in public with the dft as they have a position of relative strength, paying money into the treasury and top of the performance league tables but I guess if they were the MD won't have a job for too long.

 

[dk1]

Yes unfortunately, although I think GA could be more forceful in public with the dft as they have a position of relative strength, paying money into the treasury and top of the performance league tables but I guess if they were the MD won't have a job for too long.

Exactly. Just have to tow the company line.

 

[William3000]

wonder if (... hoping that) a similar thing is planned for the longer distance 720s

their current interior configuration is perfectly suitable for the inner London suburban services (max duration: 30 mins or so)

but it's unsuitable for longer West Anglia journeys (e.g. from Cambridge)

in two years I don't think I've seen anyone sat in the 3x2 middle seat, and if you sit on the outside seat you get bashed by every person that walks past

It was an insane decision to go for 3 plus 2 seating arrangement. I thought they were phasing them out and then lo and behold they return on a modern train. They should make the internal layout on the 720s identical to that on the 745s and 755s which are both excellent!

the 745s/755s are luxurious compared to the 720s



unfortunately those of us in west anglia are stuck with them for the next 40 years

though thinking positively as they're bombardier they probably won't last 10 (already some are rattling like crazy)

I’m hoping that they can redo the interior to be more like the 745s and 755s.

 

[Bishopstone]

Whenever I travel on Greater Anglia (the three weekends each year when the main line is open in its entirety), I comment to myself how excellent the entirely new fleet of rolling stock is. It always feels a pleasure to do a Liverpool Street - Norwich - Ely - Cambridge - Liverpool Street circuit, on a variety of traction.

What are now seen as poor compromises, such as 2+3 seating and lack of tables on the Stansted units, were a function of the design being specified pre-Covid and changed travel patterns since, aren't they?

I don't think there's much to complain about, in the great scheme of things.

 

[Railperf]

Anyone complaining about any of the newer stock (yes we know it isn't perfect) has a short memory and forgets how slow dirty and unreliable the older stock was. The 720's are a huge improvement over the 317's and 321's
The only trains worth keeping would have been the 360's but there were too few of those and they were now looking tired internally and needed an interior refresh as EMR customers have been experiencing.

Don"t get me started on the rubbish previously being used on the regional services.
It was a painful switchover with teething issues. We had 3+2 for years - never liked it, but it does a job. Would DfT have allowed any TOC to specify 2+2 seating in what is considered commuter stock?

 

[AJDesiro]

Anyone complaining about any of the newer stock (yes we know it isn't perfect) has a short memory and forgets how slow dirty and unreliable the older stock was. The 720's are a huge improvement over the 317's and 321's
The only trains worth keeping would have been the 360's but there were too few of those and they were now looking tired internally and needed an interior refresh as EMR customers have been experiencing.

Don"t get me started on the rubbish previously being used on the regional services.
It was a painful switchover with teething issues. We had 3+2 for years - never liked it, but it does a job. Would DfT have allowed any TOC to specify 2+2 seating in what is considered commuter stock?

The DfT allowed WMT to make a variation to their 730 order in 2022 to replace 3+2 seating on outer suburban units with 2+2 "intercity style" seating, although 720s were already in service then. It's getting more common to see 2+2 on commuter services, with emphasis over "overall places on the train," rather than seats.

 

[Adrian1980uk]

Whenever I travel on Greater Anglia (the three weekends each year when the main line is open in its entirety), I comment to myself how excellent the entirely new fleet of rolling stock is. It always feels a pleasure to do a Liverpool Street - Norwich - Ely - Cambridge - Liverpool Street circuit, on a variety of traction.

What are now seen as poor compromises, such as 2+3 seating and lack of tables on the Stansted units, were a function of the design being specified pre-Covid and changed travel patterns since, aren't they?

I don't think there's much to complain about, in the great scheme of things.

I always wonder what GA would have done if COVID hadn't have happened, in some ways I think it's saved them from a very different outcome of the fleet replacement. 2+3 seating is an example of the pre-Covid thinking that I agree with as the need was (and still is there) for as many seats into London as possible. The lack of tables kinda works on Stansted Express as it gives more luggage space, the argument is 720s 3+2 seating doesn't work on the Stansted express and should not be required to do that work on a regular basis.
The biggest point being made is then GEML does not have enough suitable traction to run the (admittedly only slightly) reduced timetable post COVID, 10 was never going to be enough.

I agree though with the sentiment that GA are probably doing the best job of any TOC in the country and in the grand scheme of things, not that much to complain about. If you get 745/0 it's a great journey even on the busy peak trains, the 745/1 give a good experience to Stansted, the regionals are great and the commuter stock is better than what's gone before.

 

[JonathanH]

Would DfT have allowed any TOC to specify 2+2 seating in what is considered commuter stock?

Yes, but at the same spacing as the 3+2 seating and lots of room for standing passengers - see 700s, 701s, parts of the c2c 720s and the 730 fleet.

Passengers who complain about standing might note that many modern commuter trains have seats for about 60 people in each carriage where once there would have been seats for 100 people (and indeed 120 but full compartment stock wasn't very sensible). On that basis, trains should be expected to have standing passengers at busy times.

 

[Railperf]

I always wonder what GA would have done if COVID hadn't have happened, in some ways I think it's saved them from a very different outcome of the fleet replacement. 2+3 seating is an example of the pre-Covid thinking that I agree with as the need was (and still is there) for as many seats into London as possible. The lack of tables kinda works on Stansted Express as it gives more luggage space, the argument is 720s 3+2 seating doesn't work on the Stansted express and should not be required to do that work on a regular basis.
The biggest point being made is then GEML does not have enough suitable traction to run the (admittedly only slightly) reduced timetable post COVID, 10 was never going to be enough.

I agree though with the sentiment that GA are probably doing the best job of any TOC in the country and in the grand scheme of things, not that much to complain about. If you get 745/0 it's a great journey even on the busy peak trains, the 745/1 give a good experience to Stansted, the regionals are great and the commuter stock is better than what's gone before.

The 3-bay seat in 3+2 seating gives you more seat space to sit your luggage on. While the bay of two seats is quite narrow and rarely will someone attempt to sit next to you unless train full and standing.