Greater Manchester to Leeds

[dr_barnowl]

I'm in a similar situation..

Travelling from the west side of Greater Manchester to Leeds ;

An anytime day ticket is now £28.80 (About £7 more than it was the last time I looked).

A "straight" annual season from my home station to Leeds is £3,472

But a GMPTE Traincard plus a season from Stalybridge (the boundary of the GMPTE area) to Leeds is £2,943 (£747 + £2,196).

My outbound train stops at Stalybridge. My homebound train doesn't even go through Stalybridge (I could take one that does, but it makes me more likely to miss a connection). I've never been challenged by a guard (although some have a double take), even though I've been running this ticket configuration for more than 2 years. It was suggested by a ticket office guard in the first place.

I'm sure as hell not going to stop doing things this way unless it's made impossible ; it's saving me £529 this year.

PS : The Traincard was £705 (+5.9%) last year, the SYB-LDS was £2,096 (+6.8%) ; where the hell do they get their price rises from? Inflation is miniscule, interest rates are down, and the price of oil has DROPPED.

 

[Solent&Wessex]

I'm in a similar situation..

Travelling from the west side of Greater Manchester to Leeds ;

An anytime day ticket is now £28.80 (About £7 more than it was the last time I looked).

A "straight" annual season from my home station to Leeds is £3,472

But a GMPTE Traincard plus a season from Stalybridge (the boundary of the GMPTE area) to Leeds is £2,943 (£747 + £2,196).

My outbound train stops at Stalybridge. My homebound train doesn't even go through Stalybridge (I could take one that does, but it makes me more likely to miss a connection). I've never been challenged by a guard (although some have a double take), even though I've been running this ticket configuration for more than 2 years. It was suggested by a ticket office guard in the first place.

I'm sure as hell not going to stop doing things this way unless it's made impossible ; it's saving me £529 this year.

PS : The Traincard was £705 (+5.9%) last year, the SYB-LDS was £2,096 (+6.8%) ; where the hell do they get their price rises from? Inflation is miniscule, interest rates are down, and the price of oil has DROPPED.

Without exactly knowing what you are doing I can't comment in detail, but it sounds very much like your return journey isn't valid, and although you have got away with it for some time, this I suspect is more down to luck (and ignorance on behalf of some staff!) as opposed to it actually being legal. It does however depend on what exact journey you are making, and the permitted routes for a Leeds - Stalybridge ticket.

If you have a GMPTE Traincard, and a Stalybridge to Leeds season, then the combination would be valid on a direct train from Man Picc to Leeds, even if it doesn't actually stop at Stalybridge - BUT it must go through Stalybridge. (Incidentally you say that Stalybridge is the boundary. In fact this is incorrect, Greenfield is the boundary, so you could get away with a Greenfield to Leeds season if you went this way all the time, but without looking I suspect the fares are the same regardless).

Now, say for example you came back on a Northern service via the Calder Valley Line, which doesn't go anywhere near Stalybridge, then your combination would only be valid if a Leeds - Stalybridge season was valid via Manchester Victoria. Having just checked the Routeing Guide, the only Map Valid for Stalybridge to Leeds and vice versa is Map TP, which DOES NOT allow travel down the Calder Valley into Victoria. Thus, If this is what you have been doing it is not permitted, and you should take thanks in the fact that the staff who have checked your ticket have been ignorant to the rules and valid routes. Whether this will always be the case is a different matter....

 

[dan_atki]

Moved to a new thread .

 

[dr_barnowl]

take thanks in the fact that the staff who have checked your ticket have been ignorant to the rules and valid routes

My morning journey stops at Stalybridge.

Going home I could take the 1708 Liverpool train, for which I'd have to change at SYB, but I prefer to take the 1708 Victoria train, especially in the winter months. It's less congested, I get a seat (even if it's in the luggage rack), and I don't have to freeze my harris off waiting for a connection on SYB platform 2.

I like to think that the reason I've not been brought up on it is that the two journeys are basically equivalent - I end up at Victoria in either case - and that the RPIs have a modicum of human decency. And to me it makes sense to spread the load onto a less popular service when I don't need the extra speed the express has.

If I were to disembark at a station where my ticket wasn't valid, I would (and should) be brought up on it, but as long as my destination is the same I have no moral problem with it.

Of course, the real reason for all this nonsense is the fragmentation of the rail companies. The concept of competition bringing efficiency on the rail service is ludicrous - because there is no competition when most journeys have only one available supplier. You can't choose which company to pay anyway - market dynamics do not apply. Denying people the opportunity to choose their own route _reduces_ the efficiency of what is a _network_ - data networks route packets according to available capacity, the rail networks route passengers according to a giant game of "This is MY route, so NER!"

 

[clagmonster]

The NRCoC says:
"19. Using a combination of tickets
You may use two or more tickets for one journey as long as together they cover
the entire journey and one of the following applies:
(a) they are both Zonal Tickets (unless special conditions prohibit their use);
(b) the train you are in calls at the station where you change from one ticket to
another; or
(c) one of the tickets is a Season Ticket (which for this purpose does not include Season
Tickets or travel passes issued on behalf of a passenger transport executive or
local authority) or a leisure travel pass, and the other ticket(s) is/are not.
You must comply with any restriction shown on the tickets relating to travel in the
trains of a particular Train Company or Train Companies (see Condition 10).
If you do not comply with this Condition, you will be treated as having joined the
train without a ticket and the relevant parts of Condition 2 or 4 will apply, either
to the entire journey, or from the last station where the train stopped at which at
least one of the tickets was valid.
For the purposes of this Condition, a “leisure travel pass” means any multi-journey
ticket (excluding Season Tickets) valid for:
(i) at least 7 consecutive days; or
(ii) at least 3 days in a period of at least 7 consecutive days
and includes rover tickets, travel passes, flexipass tickets and BritRail passes."
In your case, part C applies, as your Traincard was issued on behalf of the PTE, and so your train does not need to stop at the station where you 'swap' tickets. However, you do need to make sure your tickets cover you entire journey. Presumably your GM Traincard covers all rail travel within the GM county bondary, which in this case is west of and including Littleborough and Greenfield. Your Stalybridge-Leeds season has routing permission TP, which allows the following routes:
Stalybridge-Huddersfield-Leeds
Stalybridge-Huddersfield-Wakefield-Leeds
Stalybridge-Huddersfield-Wakefield-Pontefract-Leeds
None of these routes cover the Calder Valley, so depending on the route your train takes, you are not covered for either Marsden or Leeds to Littleborough.

 

[OwlMan]

Why do you buy a Stalybridge -Leeds season (£2196) when a Greenfield - Marsden season (£888 ) plus a West Yorks all zone annual ticket (£820) cost a total of £1708?

Or to save more money a Littleborough to Walsden season (£488. ) total £1308?

Peter

NOTE
As noted below W Yorks all zone is £1170 not £820 making a total of £888 = £1170 = 2058 via Stalybridge, and a total of £488 + £1170 = 1658 via the Calder valley.

 

[dr_barnowl]

Why do you buy a Stalybridge -Leeds season (£2196)

It hadn't occurred to me to do this another way.

When I started, the journey was ...

Atherton -> Stalybridge -> Leeds

Leeds -> Stalybridge -> Victoria -> Atherton

Which I can still do.

My habitual return journey is

Leeds -> (via Bradford / Halifax / etc) Victoria -> Atherton

The outward journey is the fastest way to go in the morning, one of a few services that run direct to Stalybridge in the morning without changing at Victoria. The return journey works either way because there is no direct service and I have to change at Victoria (same service either way).

Does the West Yorks ticket cover out as far as Huddersfield or Stalybridge?

 

[tony_mac]

The only ticket I can see for £820 a year is the zones 2-5 rail and bus ticket, which does not include Leeds.
It's £1,170 for zones 1-5.

I would have thought that a Greenfield - Marsden ticket would be much more obviously invalid on the direct to Victoria train.

 

[yorkie]

The only ticket I can see for £820 a year is the zones 2-5 rail and bus ticket, which does not include Leeds.
It's £1,170 for zones 1-5.

I would have thought that a Greenfield - Marsden ticket would be much more obviously invalid on the direct to Victoria train.

Quite! Although ironically it would given Northern more revenue (100% for that season), but going on the direct Victoria train on a ticket that looks more valid NT are losing out as TPE will get nearly all the revenue! What would make sense is for NT issuing a "dual availability" ticket valid for both of these options. It would get NT more revenue as people would be more likely to buy PTE products + NT products rather than TPE products.

As for the current journey being done on the current ticketing, this is a cheaper route (Littleborough-Leeds is £1556 so a lot cheaper than Stalybridge-Leeds) so it does seem that common sense is being applied by the guards not charging you, although officially and legally they could.

 

[dr_barnowl]

My outbound train stops at Stalybridge. My homebound train doesn't even go through Stalybridge (I could take one that does, but it makes me more likely to miss a connection).

Revisiting this topic...

The ticket prices have gone down ; ever so slightly - 0.3% on the STY - LDS ticket, 0.4% on the Traincard, 0.3% on the straight-through season.

Due to the timetable changes, I now get home 15 minutes later... but it's less likely I'll miss my final connection, so I can take "permitted" route trains and hop a tram across town.

It's still cheaper (now by £535.50) to split my ticket between a GMPTE Traincard and a season from SYB to LDS.

 

[hairyhandedfool]

I must have missed this thread previously. Anyway, a GMPTE Countycard/Traincard and a West Yorks All zone annual ticket would surely both qualify as zonal tickets and therefore the cross-border ticket would not be needed (just like Travelcards in London).

 

[gordonthemoron]

would make sense

 

[John @ home]

a GMPTE Countycard/Traincard and a West Yorks All zone annual ticket would surely both qualify as zonal tickets

Yes, they both qualify as Zonal tickets, but they would leave a Greenfield - Marsden or Littleborough - Walsden gap which would need to be covered by another ticket.

 

[hairyhandedfool]

But the GMPTE ticket is valid 'within Greater Manchester', the boundary station is not specifically mentioned, I presume the same applies for the Leeds ticket (I haven't actually checked). That being the case there is no gap because the edge of the WYPTE area is the edge of the GMPTE area.

If a Londoner held a zone R12 monthly Travelcard and a seperate Zone R34 monthly Travelcard, he wouldn't need a ticket to get from West Hampstead Thameslink (zone 2) to Cricklewood (zone 3), even though neither ticket actually covers the whole journey. If he didn't have the R34 ticket he wouldn't be covered beyond West Hampstead Thameslink station despite the fact the zone doesn't actually end there.

 

[wellhouse]

Although GMPTE and West Yorkshire PTE do share boundary bus stops, and it is possible to travel from one to the other by bus using only their zonal tickets, they do not share boundary rail stations, so it is necessary to purchase an additional ticket (as John @ home says) to travel from one to the other by train.

The Northern services between Marsden through Standedge Tunnel to Greenfield are generally lightly loaded because passengers prefer to drive to Greenfield (if heading for Manchester) or Marsden (if heading for Huddersfield) It's £5.20 Off Peak Day Return for the 8-minute journey, compared with £6.20 for a Metro Day Rover for Buses and Trains throughout West Yorkshire, and £5.30 for an equivalent GMPTE System One Daysaver

 

[hairyhandedfool]

But by that reasoning my London example would mean the chap would have to buy a ticket from West Hampstead to Cricklewood even though he has a ticket for both zone 2 and zone 3, but we know that he doesn't have to buy an extra ticket.

So, if we are in agreement that the actual boundary (not the boundary station) for both tickets is the same place, why can't we say the journey is covered?

 

[John @ home]

But by that reasoning my London example would mean the chap would have to buy a ticket from West Hampstead to Cricklewood even though he has a ticket for both zone 2 and zone 3, but we know that he doesn't have to buy an extra ticket.

I was not aware that a person holding a Zone 12 Travelcard and a Zone 34 Travelcard is able to travel West Hampstead - Cricklewood without an additional ticket. It's useful to learn that.

if we are in agreement that the actual boundary (not the boundary station) for both tickets is the same place, why can't we say the journey is covered?

I'm not sure that the boundary for both GM and WY tickets for rail purposes is in the same place. It depends on the precise terms & conditions

Passengers using DayRover tickets are carried subject to the conditions of carriage of the operator whose service is being used and to the detailed conditions of use in the leaflet "West Yorkshire DayRover".

This leaflet states

Where can I use my DayRover?
These maps show how far you can travel with your DayRover bus or train tickets

The train map shows Walsden and Marden but not Littleborough or Greenfield. Similarly the System One Daysaver map shows Littleborough and Greenfield but not Walsden or Marden.

The position on the West Yorkshire - South Yorkshire boundary is rather different. Four stations, Denby Dale, Darton, Moorthorpe and South Elmsall, appear on both maps. So the starting point is that holders of both a West Yorkshire DayRover and a South Yorkshire Day Tripper may travel on through trains which do not stop at the boundary station unless another specific instruction prohibits it.

But the terms & conditions of the South Yorkshire Day Tripper state

It is valid to/from Denby Dale, Moorthorpe and South Elmsall rail stations, providing the train stops at these stations.

This does not restrict trains via Darton, and there is no corresponding restriction in the West Yorkshire terms & conditions, so a combination of DayRover and Day Tripper tickets are valid on the semi-fast Leeds - Sheffield/Nottingham trains which pass through Darton without stopping. The combination is also valid on CrossCountry and East Midlands trains when they are diverted via Darton due to engineering work, but not on their normal routes via Moorthorpe or South Elmsall.

 

[hairyhandedfool]

I was not aware that a person holding a Zone 12 Travelcard and a Zone 34 Travelcard is able to travel West Hampstead - Cricklewood without an additional ticket. It's useful to learn that....

I thought most people knew that

....I'm not sure that the boundary for both GM and WY tickets for rail purposes is in the same place. It depends on the precise terms & conditionsThis leaflet statesThe train map shows Walsden and Marden but not Littleborough or Greenfield. Similarly the System One Daysaver map shows Littleborough and Greenfield but not Walsden or Marden....

I think that is the difference between the map and the wording in the FRPP for the GM ticket. The actual leaflet for GMPTE tickets is geared more towards buses than trains IMO. It doesn't, for example, mention the use of the train to Disley and New Mills (Central and Newtown) on a Countycard! (a GMPTE product) The rail line map shows lines between stations within the GMPTE rail ticketing area, rather than it being a boundary map.

The FRPP states it is valid 'on rail services within the GMPTE area' and the map shown (which I will try and find a link for) illustrates the lines all the way to the boundary of the GM area (although this doesn't include Walsden or Marsden because they are in the WYPTE area.

The WYPTE map linked to does show the boundary is beyond Marsden and Walsden, but not as far as Littleborough or Greenfield. That could be for simplicity, but I feel it raises questions about its validity if combined with the GM ticket which, according to the FRPP, is valid to a point between Littleborough/Greenfield and Walsden/Marsden.

It is interesting to note that the NRE, GMPTE and System One websites all have different maps for the some of the GMPTE tickets!

I guess it can't be proved that the boundaries are the same, thus the passenger loses again.

 

[CompactDstrxion]

I was not aware that a person holding a Zone 12 Travelcard and a Zone 34 Travelcard is able to travel West Hampstead - Cricklewood without an additional ticket. It's useful to learn that.I'm not sure that the boundary for both GM and WY tickets for rail purposes is in the same place. It depends on the precise terms & conditionsThis leaflet statesThe train map shows Walsden and Marden but not Littleborough or Greenfield. Similarly the System One Daysaver map shows Littleborough and Greenfield but not Walsden or Marden.

If as previously mentioned the GMPTE zonal ticket says it's valid 'within Greater Manchester' then the WYPTE map you linked to actually shows the rail boundary as between Marsden and Greenfield, presumably at the county boundary... so they could be valid?

Anyone with a good reason to want to know this could make a Freedom of Information request to the PTE(s).

 

[142094]

Could always just phone them up and ask for the Rail team, I know the people on the Metro Rail team and he used to get a lot of calls about Metrocard validity.

 

[Solent&Wessex]

I have had a quick look at the WYPTE Guide to Cross Boundary Bus and Train Travel, which is available here : http://www.wymetro.com/TicketsAndPasses/CrossBoundary

In relation to the Huddersfield - Manchester journey, the guide shows that "Metro Ticket Conditions apply.." between Huddersfield and Marsden. If the GMPTE ticket is valid between Manchester and Greenfield (which it is), then how can either of these tickets be valid for the Marsden - Greenfield section?

The "boundary point" is clearly stated as Marsden station - not a fictional location somewhere half way through Standege tunnel. Therefore, as far as the zone is concerned, the end of the Metro Zone is Marsden.

In the case of the West Yorkshire / South Yorkshire boundary and ticketing, there is more flexibility here as there is greater co-operation in the ticketing between the two areas. Hence some stations being in both ticketing areas.

 

[Deerfold]

I have had a quick look at the WYPTE Guide to Cross Boundary Bus and Train Travel, which is available here : http://www.wymetro.com/TicketsAndPasses/CrossBoundary

In relation to the Huddersfield - Manchester journey, the guide shows that "Metro Ticket Conditions apply.." between Huddersfield and Marsden. If the GMPTE ticket is valid between Manchester and Greenfield (which it is), then how can either of these tickets be valid for the Marsden - Greenfield section?

The "boundary point" is clearly stated as Marsden station - not a fictional location somewhere half way through Standege tunnel. Therefore, as far as the zone is concerned, the end of the Metro Zone is Marsden.

In the case of the West Yorkshire / South Yorkshire boundary and ticketing, there is more flexibility here as there is greater co-operation in the ticketing between the two areas. Hence some stations being in both ticketing areas.

I think that's the bit that clarifies it - for the South Yorkshire boundary some some boundary stations are in South Yorkshire and some are in West Yorkshire - and these agree in the publicity from both PTEs. I used to live near Sowerby Bridge and would drive or get the bus to Littleborough when going to Manchester (and because of the huge loop in the rail service it wasn't much slower to get the bus) and pay a fraction of the fare. I'm not sure why West and South Yorkshire cooperate so much better - they have a joint bus ticket too (Metromaster) - although First used to do some good tickets which were valid in West Yorks and Greater Manchester.

New Bit: Although, having read Metro's publicity I noticed something I've not seen before:
"Where a passenger holds two or more zonal
tickets in combination or one is a rail season
ticket and one is not, then the train does not
need to call at the station where they change
from one ticket to the other. Please note that
these combinations of tickets do not apply to
services operated by CrossCountry, East
Midlands Trains or National Express."

Does this exclusion disagree with the NCOC?

 

[hairyhandedfool]

Deerfold - Condition 19 says that you can use two or more ticket as along as they cover the entire journey and either:

Both are zonal tickets (unless specific conditions prohibit their use)

The train you are in calls at the station where they change over

One is a season ticket or a leisure pass (as defined in the NCoC) and the other(s) is/are not.

So it only really affects the last bit, where the other ticket is a season ticket, but you would have to check if this is a condition of the ticket in question or just what WYPTE have printed in that leaflet to simplify things a little, to help people understand it all.

kwvr45 - The boundary for London Travelcards is 'a fictional place' (unless you've be to a town/city/village called 'Boundary Zone 2' recently????), yet it is used as the changeover point for tickets, because "together they cover the entire journey".

Whilst that leaflet does say that conditions apply up to Marsden/Walsden, in my opinion, it falls short of saying Walsden and Marsden are the boundary for the ticket. Infact, if you want to travel outside of the WYPTE area, it says (in the train section) that you have to buy a ticket for 'the non-WYPTE section of your journey', rather than telling you to buy the ticket from the last WYPTE station the train stops at or passes through.

If one ticket stops where the other starts, the journey is covered because they are both zonal tickets (condition 19), the train doesn't need to stop at 'the boundary station'.