Greengauge 21 report - The rail needs of the North and Midlands

[furnessvale]

What I'd do is massively expand Birmingham Airport by building 4 runways and lots of terminals on the other side of the M42 and HS2. There would be short haul and long haul flights across the world (domestic would nearly all be covered by HS2) There would be a fast shuttle from the station to all the terminals. Close the current site and sell it off for housing - it is in a prime spot. Then call all HS2 trains there, and also build a high speed line from the airport south to Cheltenham (and electrify southwards) joining the Crosscountry line and run high speed services from Birmingham to Plymouth and Cardiff. The airport will then be a hub for the whole country since it is fairly central, including London (OOC to Bham Int would take a similar time as a Crossrail train to Heathrow or the Gatwick express from Victoria to Gatwick). Demand would drastically drop from Heathrow, Luton, Stansted, Southend, Manchester, Liverpool, Leeds Bradford, Newcastle, East Midlands, Bristol and Cardiff since they all would have fast journeys to Birmingham Airport, and at some point, some or all of them may potentially close. Gatwick would stay open as a second hub for the South.

Sounds good, unless you live under the flight path of course.

Unfortunately, commercial considerations have already dictated that Manchester will be "the" airport for anywhere reasonably north of London.

 

[London Trains]

Sounds good, unless you live under the flight path of course.

I've already taken that into consideration, by affecting the least amount of people possible. The runways would be aligned similarly to the current runway, with the flight paths going in between Sutton Coldfield and Tamworth, and between Leamington Spa and Stratford upon Avon. In fact, Birmingham residents would be very happy not having flights over their houses all day anymore since the flights would all avoid Birmingham.

 

[HSTEd]

There is little reason not to concentrate UK airport capacity in a coastal or indeed ofshore location - which would avoid all these issues.

None of these cities are particularly far from the sea after all.

 

[Purple Orange]

There is little reason not to concentrate UK airport capacity in a coastal or indeed ofshore location - which would avoid all these issues.

None of these cities are particularly far from the sea after all.

So you’d want Boris Island in that case.

 

[HSTEd]

So you’d want Boris Island in that case.

Probably, six runway airport in the Thames Estuary or even the Wash.

 

[London Trains]

There is little reason not to concentrate UK airport capacity in a coastal or indeed ofshore location - which would avoid all these issues.

None of these cities are particularly far from the sea after all.

Any hub airport at a coastal destination or in the sea will disadvantage most of the country. Birmingham is a central destination for the country, and with HS2, is less than an hour from most major cities in England.

 

[Bald Rick]

All this new airport chat is largely irrelevant 1) to the discussion about rail needs in the north of England, and 2) because it is not going to happen. Can we get back on topic?

 

[Purple Orange]

All this new airport chat is largely irrelevant 1) to the discussion about rail needs in the north of England, and 2) because it is not going to happen. Can we get back on topic?

Agreed.

As a resident in the Manchester area, I am naturally interested in the services in and out of Piccadilly. What I get frustrated with is how the narrative swings between a full bells and whistles NPR/HS2 station or scrapping phase 2b (and by extension NPR). What I am particularly interested in are the ‘in-between’ models and how those could work. I would not be surprised if no underground station is built, but NPR is forced to reverse at Piccadilly. However I would still consider that a win, because HS2 would have been built and we would have established NPR as a concept.

 

[Bald Rick]

I don’t see what the problem with reversing at Piccadilly is. (Or Curzon St for that matter).

 

[edwin_m]

Re-designing and re-consenting to get Piccadilly totally or partly underground and re-route the tunnel so HS2 enters from the west would delay everything by several years. I think it's either reversal or back to the option where NPR towards Leeds leaves westwards and does a U-turn in tunnel. This ought to bring it out heading for the gap between Oldham and Ashton which looks to be one of the few ways of getting out of Manchester without tunneling all the way.

 

[HSTEd]

The tunnel to the Airport getting built is the important part.
If we want a "proper" station we can do it later.

 

[Purple Orange]

Oh I’d be happy with a reversing situation. If the end result enables long distance services to be removed from the Castlefield corridor, increased frequency for commuter trains south of Piccadilly and 4 NPR tph to Leeds & Liverpool plus the HS2 service pattern, I’ll be happy. Can this be achieved with just 4 additional 400m platforms?

 

[Peter Kelford]

Probably, six runway airport in the Thames Estuary or even the Wash.

Yes the Wash... good idea... and the land is all flat around it so there is plenty of space for development. Just cut across the Fens with a line from Peterborough.

 

[class26]

would need to completely revamp the road and rail system to connect into this wash airport though.

 

[Peter Kelford]

would need to completely revamp the road and rail system to connect into this wash airport though.

Yes, but it might be better to place it near Peterborough in the Fens as the road and rail system is better:

Rail link at 160 km/h + via Peterborough to Nottingham and onwards
Improved A1 with higher capacity
High quality rail link towards East Anglia.

 

[Ianno87]

Yes, but it might be better to place it near Peterborough in the Fens as the road and rail system is better:

Rail link at 160 km/h + via Peterborough to Nottingham and onwards
Improved A1 with higher capacity
High quality rail link towards East Anglia.

First time I've ever had it be claimed that the Fens has a good road network....

 

[class26]

First time I've ever had it be claimed that the Fens has a good road network....

At least there is space to develop a network of roads or improve rail

 

[HSTEd]

would need to completely revamp the road and rail system to connect into this wash airport though.

We are going to have to do that pretty much wherever you put such an airport though.....

Yes, but it might be better to place it near Peterborough in the Fens as the road and rail system is better:

Problem is Peterborough is an inland site and thus has all the problems associated with an inland site....

 

[Purple Orange]

Can we change the title of the thread to Estuary Airports in the South East? The title is completely off topic.

 

[Peter Kelford]

First time I've ever had it be claimed that the Fens has a good road network....

A1/A14 is better than the A47/A16.

 

[GRALISTAIR]

The tunnel to the Airport getting built is the important part.
If we want a "proper" station we can do it later.

I agree with you. One move at a time.