GTR cancellations including not operating from Victoria until 10th Jan

[FOH]

Almost 600 posts and most of them are about dorking to Horsham… getting really boring now

I've resisted sticking my oar in on the zero weekday service on the Forest Hill route!

 

[infobleep]

Am I right in thinking that no Gatwick Express trains are running on Saturdays? If Saturday timetables weren't changing, surely Gatwick Express trains should be running? How did they find the time to convert them in the timetable to Southern? They are stopping additionally at Haywards Heath, East Croydon and Clapham Junction. They leave Brighton same time but Haywards Heath 2 minutes earlier than they did prior to the December 2021 timetable change. x52 very x54. and arrive into London Victoria 2 minutes later at x42 as they didn't stop at Clapham Junction prior to the timetable change in Decemeber.

There is a separate thread discussing Gatwick Express and people wanting limited stop services to London Victoria. This doesn't fit that argument and further makes a mockery of Gatwick Express services and fewer services running from Haywards Heath, East Croydon and possibly Clapham Junction. I ain't know the full reasons why they could stop at Clapham Junction today though.

But strangely there were enough Amended Timetable and Rolling Stock Planners and Amended Traincrew Diagram Planners (I would love somebody to explain to me the actual work of a Traincrew Diagrammer since I have never seen one of these Diagrams whereas I do know what a timetable looks like) to flip over on almost no notice to running the Christmas Week engineering timetable in to the following post Christmas weeks when clearly on shared stretches of line like Epsom to Dorking the companies who shared the lines with Southern (SouthWestern in this case) would not have been running the services being run during the christmas week engineering works (a Saturday timetable) but some other service pattern. And in Spring 2020 there were enough Amended Timetable and Rolling Stock Planners and Amended Traincrew Diagram Planners to develop a completely different lockdown period timetable in very little time indeed (the new much reduced service just came in very quickly and there wasn't a period with no trains at all running while it was planned out due to all the huge amounts of work apparently involved). Also aren't jobs like Amended Traincrew Diagram Planner and Amended Timetable and Rolling Stock Planner jobs that be can done working from home online on a computer meaning they could then even potentially be done while someone is self isolating?

It is possible to have mild covid and not being well enough to work.

I have colleagues who were in this position and they were working from home. If you aren't well enough to work then it doesn't matter if you can work from home.

Mild covid can still be as bad as flu or worse. The term mild relates to people not needing to go into hospital or needing the medical intervention of antiviral drugs

 

[Mcr Warrior]

Am I right in thinking that no Gatwick Express trains are running on Saturdays?

Are any Gatwick Express services running at all just now? Thought they were all still completely suspended until further notice.

 

[Jan Mayen]

They are. They ran for about a week in December.

 

[jon0844]

There were extra services on GN last week into and out of Moorgate, which ran only if there were enough drivers to cover the main timetable. In other words, a driver would be taken off the extra service to cover the timetabled one if necessary.

I'm not sure if they were part of driver training runs, but I noticed a couple of services early morning and late afternoon.

Perhaps this will happen more between now and mid February.

 

[infobleep]

Are any Gatwick Express services running at all just now? Thought they were all still completely suspended until further notice.

No there aren't right now but there was before Christmas and surely there should be on Saturday's as I'm not aware of that yimetable being rolled over from Christmas.

To be honest I don't want the Gatwick Express services. I prefer additional trains stopping at Haywards Heath but if the planners are so busy working kn the February blockade timetable, nlhow come they managed to convert the Gatwick Express into Southern with the additional stops. Unless there is some fact I'm not aware of.

 

[Surreytraveller]

Am I right in thinking that no Gatwick Express trains are running on Saturdays? If Saturday timetables weren't changing, surely Gatwick Express trains should be running? How did they find the time to convert them in the timetable to Southern? They are stopping additionally at Haywards Heath, East Croydon and Clapham Junction. They leave Brighton same time but Haywards Heath 2 minutes earlier than they did prior to the December 2021 timetable change. x52 very x54. and arrive into London Victoria 2 minutes later at x42 as they didn't stop at Clapham Junction prior to the timetable change in Decemeber.

There is a separate thread discussing Gatwick Express and people wanting limited stop services to London Victoria. This doesn't fit that argument and further makes a mockery of Gatwick Express services and fewer services running from Haywards Heath, East Croydon and possibly Clapham Junction. I ain't know the full reasons why they could stop at Clapham Junction today though.


It is possible to have mild covid and not being well enough to work.

I have colleagues who were in this position and they were working from home. If you aren't well enough to work then it doesn't matter if you can work from home.

Mild covid can still be as bad as flu or worse. The term mild relates to people not needing to go into hospital or needing the medical intervention of antiviral drugs

Gatwick Express was taken out before covid due to the Gatwick Airport rebuilding works

 

[infobleep]

Gatwick Express was taken out before covid due to the Gatwick Airport rebuilding works

If it happened before vivid then is forgotten that but either way, I wasn't referring to when it was taken out originally.

In Dec 2021 the Gatwick Express service resumed, to my personal dislike and then suddenly it stopped again for the Christmas works bur hasn't returned, even though the Saturday timetable is meant to be full Saturday timetable.

Something doesn't add up as I was under the impression they didn't have time to modify the timetables, so therefore I would expect it to be running on Saturdays but it isn't.

 

[Surreytraveller]

If it happened before vivid then is forgotten that but either way, I wasn't referring to when it was taken out originally.

In Dec 2021 the Gatwick Express service resumed, to my personal dislike and then suddenly it stopped again for the Christmas works bur hasn't returned, even though the Saturday timetable is meant to be full Saturday timetable.

Something doesn't add up as I was under the impression they didn't have time to modify the timetables, so therefore I would expect it to be running on Saturdays but it isn't.

It wasn't running on Saturdays before Christmas. I might be wrong, but I don't think Gatwick Express has run since May 2019. It was brought back for about a week at the December 2021 timetable change, but Omicron scuppered that

 

[3rd rail land]

Maybe I'm being dense but why are people bothered about Gatwick Express services? You can simply take a Southern service, with more comfortable seats, which takes only a few minutes extra.

 

[Surreytraveller]

Maybe I'm being dense but why are people bothered about Gatwick Express services? You can simply take a Southern service, with more comfortable seats, which takes only a few minutes extra.

Its in relation to the timetable change. Nothing to do with seats

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

Maybe I'm being dense but why are people bothered about Gatwick Express services?

Most people aren't its only the DofT who think they can make a few quid extra by conning inbound tourists on planes to buy a GATEX ticket and never mention there are other cheaper almost as fast alternatives.

I doubt it will ever come back now and will just be rebadged as part of the Southern fast Brighton service.

 

[infobleep]

It wasn't running on Saturdays before Christmas. I might be wrong, but I don't think Gatwick Express has run since May 2019. It was brought back for about a week at the December 2021 timetable change, but Omicron scuppered that

So before Christmas, it only ran Monday to Friday? That would explain why it wasn't running on Saturday after Christmas.

Maybe I'm being dense but why are people bothered about Gatwick Express services? You can simply take a Southern service, with more comfortable seats, which takes only a few minutes extra.

It enables an extra journey opportunity to and from Haywarda Heath and one evening, had I been able to catch a 19:54, I wouldn't have been an hour late home to Guildford. At that time of the evening, there is no 19:58 and the 20:12 was late. I should have got the 19:50, which is officially the only train I should catch to make the 20:29. However, prior to the timetable change I could also get a 19:54. There's no time saving for passengers from Brighton hy skipping Hauwafds Heath.

I prefer not to hang around at Gatwick Airport for almost half an hour so I usually aim for the x12 and take a chance. On this occasion I was in time for the 19:54 had it run. I wasn't aiming for it as such, since ur wasn't running

The connections are bad at this time of the evening.

It wasn't running on Saturdays before Christmas. I might be wrong, but I don't think Gatwick Express has run since May 2019. It was brought back for about a week at the December 2021 timetable change, but Omicron scuppered that

According to Open Train Times, it ran on Saturday 18/12/2021.

I don't know if it ran in practice or if the data is wrong. If it did run then my point stands on how come the service isn't running on Saturday's now, given I've read it is the full Saturday timetable and they don't have time to modify the timetables.

https://www.opentraintimes.com/location/HHE/2021-12-18/16:49?empty_passenger=on&non_passenger=on&passenger=on&show_call=on&show_pass=on&show_stp=on&show_var=on&show_wtt=on&utf8=%E2%9C%93

 

[Surreytraveller]

So before Christmas, it only ran Monday to Friday? That would explain why it wasn't running on Saturday after Christmas.


It enables an extra journey opportunity to and from Haywarda Heath and one evening, had I been able to catch a 19:54, I wouldn't have been an hour late home to Guildford. At that time of the evening, there is no 19:58 and the 20:12 was late. I should have got the 19:50, which is officially the only train I should catch to make the 20:29. However, prior to the timetable change I could also get a 19:54. There's no time saving for passengers from Brighton hy skipping Hauwafds Heath.

I prefer not to hang around at Gatwick Airport for almost half an hour so I usually aim for the x12 and take a chance. On this occasion I was in time for the 19:54 had it run. I wasn't aiming for it as such, since ur wasn't running

The connections are bad at this time of the evening.


According to Open Train Times, it ran on Saturday 18/12/2021.

I don't know if it ran in practice or if the data is wrong. If it did run then my point stands on how come the service isn't running on Saturday's now, given I've read it is the full Saturday timetable and they don't have time to modify the timetables.

https://www.opentraintimes.com/location/HHE/2021-12-18/16:49?empty_passenger=on&non_passenger=on&passenger=on&show_call=on&show_pass=on&show_stp=on&show_var=on&show_wtt=on&utf8=%E2%9C%93

Those trains run now, just branded Southern instead of Gatwick Express, with stops at East Croydon and Haywards Heath.
Not sure which base timetable is being used for Saturdays at the moment. Perhaps the week before Christmas was the modified one, not the base one. Who knows

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

Those trains run now, just branded Southern instead of Gatwick Express, with stops at East Croydon and Haywards Heath.
Not sure which base timetable is being used for Saturdays at the moment. Perhaps the week before Christmas was the modified one, not the base one. Who knows

and i see Clapham Jcn and it would be far better that this service and stopping pattern is substituted for the pointless GATEX service.

 

[MikeWM]

The 1157 Ely to Kings Cross this morning picked up 4 carriages at Cambridge, and the 2111 in the opposite direction is dropping 4 off.

First time I've seen attaching/detaching at Cambridge in two years, and so the first 12-car GN services I've seen in that time. Is this properly back now or is this a one-off?

 

[Class 466]

Well it seems that posts made in this thread have finally had some impact with the Southern/GoVia train planners since as of next Monday 24th Jan three late evening rail buses will serve passengers arriving on services from London Victoria at 2105, 2205 and 2305 in to Epsom that then connect with a rail replacement bus leaving Epsom at 2210, 2310 and 0015 and reaching Ockley 55 minutes later and Horsham after 1 hour 15 minutes.

It looks like this is being achieved by hiring a couple of rail buses to provide these service so that people can get back home after an evening out (and in my case I will definitely be using the service on Wednesday evening and possibly on Friday too) but direct trains to Ockley are still only running out of London Bridge up until the 1725 service until Monday Feb 21st.

So finally the train planners have belatedly grudgingly recognised an obligation to provide mid and late evening train services from Dorking to Horsham but only after three weeks of not bothering to do so and a distinctly offhand and unsympathetic station supervisor at Dorking showing no interest whatsoever in providing taxis for passengers left with no way home south of Dorking after the 1725 from London Bridge arriving at Dorking at 1833. But this leaves a rather odd gap with no train service at all south of Dorking between 1833 and 2246 but with two subsequent services at 2346 and 0051 and these late evening rail buses all start at Epsom but its also possible to connect on to one of them with a shorter total journey time at Leatherhead. Total journey time from London Bridge to Ockley is however pretty long at 1 hour 40 minutes for the 2125 and 2225 services and 1 hour 55 minutes for the final 2315 service from London Brdge. Although its actually better to start at London Waterloo and take the 2339 train to Leatherhead with South West Trains and then pick up the rail bus at Leatherhead at 0036 getting to Ockley at 0110 with a journey time of only 1 hour 31 minutes versus the last regular 2325 train service from London Victoria with a normal 1 hour 13 minutes journey time but at least the 2339 from London Waterloo connecting at Leatherhead leaves London 14 minutes later than the last normal train service that runs south of Dorking to Horsham each night.

So good that Southern train planners have finally chosen to provide a way to get back later in the evening but very disappointing this is being done using slow rail bus connections rather than simply by running the trains from London Bridge to Dorking all the way through to Horsham. Also I would suggest this is a rather unnecessarily high cost option with the three hourly rail replacement buses that also delivers a very slow and uncomfortable service for passengers and it would surely have been much better and cheaper to find a way to just convert the 2255 from London Bridge to Dorking that runs on out of service to Horsham anyway in to a through passenger train all the way to Horsham. Whereas this solution delivers a significantly slower and more uncomfortable journey at a substantially higher cost in terms of provision to GoVia Thameslink. As South Western trains are still running to Dorking until the usual last train time it doesn't look like there are any actual evening works taking place on the line between Epsom and Horsham that necessitate that bus service provision.

I think that's probaby due to engineering works as theyre only Monday to Thursday (buses would've been planned back before this timetable change based on the old workings) rather than any posts that have appeared on this thread.

 

[infobleep]

Those trains run now, just branded Southern instead of Gatwick Express, with stops at East Croydon and Haywards Heath.
Not sure which base timetable is being used for Saturdays at the moment. Perhaps the week before Christmas was the modified one, not the base one. Who knows

The intention was for the Gatwick Express services to resume from the timetable change in December.

Thus the base timetable must surely have been for Gatwick Express services but perhaps someone with timetable planning knowledge would be able to comment further

This is the thread where it was discussed, stemming from Gatwick Express fares.

GTR's Gatwick Express fares from 13 December

I presume the Gatwick Express will continue to allow all tickets, including Not Gatwick Express tickets, and Oyster/contactless will remain the same as Southern branded trains.

www.railforums.co.uk

Edit: Actually, the conversation on this for me started in the below thread on timetables.

December 2021 Timetable change

The improvements for the Severn Beach line, the Harrogate line and the Ebbw Valley line really are very significant bright spots among the gloom. Historic improvements, years in the making. Let's just hope that people use them and don't lose them. The Harrogate - York section is generally...

www.railforums.co.uk

I actually did make the 20:12, it's just that the 20:29 had the Gatwick Airport stop cancelled and there was alternative at 9 pm. I only add this to correct my earlier post.

So Gatwick Express was a thing kn the base timetable and Saturday is meant to be the full Saturday timetable.

 

[Surreytraveller]

The intention was for the Gatwick Express services to resume from the timetable change in December.

Thus the base timetable must surely have been for Gatwick Express services but perhaps someone with timetable planning knowledge would be able to comment further

This is the thread where it was discussed, stemming from Gatwick Express fares.

GTR's Gatwick Express fares from 13 December

I presume the Gatwick Express will continue to allow all tickets, including Not Gatwick Express tickets, and Oyster/contactless will remain the same as Southern branded trains.

www.railforums.co.uk

Edit: Actually, the conversation on this for me started in the below thread on timetables.

December 2021 Timetable change

The improvements for the Severn Beach line, the Harrogate line and the Ebbw Valley line really are very significant bright spots among the gloom. Historic improvements, years in the making. Let's just hope that people use them and don't lose them. The Harrogate - York section is generally...

www.railforums.co.uk

I actually did make the 20:12, it's just that the 20:29 had the Gatwick Airport stop cancelled and there was alternative at 9 pm. I only add this to correct my earlier post.

So Gatwick Express was a thing kn the base timetable and Saturday is meant to be the full Saturday timetable.

Who knows who's right. But I think the Gatwick Express returning was quite short notice, so maybe wasn't actually the base timetable, and the base timetable was altered to allow for it

 

[infobleep]

Who knows who's right. But I think the Gatwick Express returning was quite short notice, so maybe wasn't actually the base timetable, and the base timetable was altered to allow for it

Well prior to the December timetable change the Southern services didn't stop at Claohsm Junction and now on a Saturday and now they do.

Also on last Saturday's timetable the services have VAR against them jn the summery list.

Jn the detailed timetable for kne service, linked too below, it says Altered WTT schedule. That usbt the case for all services from Brighton. This suggests to me the base timetable was different.

Realtime Trains | 1M31 0839 Brighton to London Victoria | 22/01/2022

Real-time train running information for 1M31 0839 departure from Brighton to London Victoria on 22/01/2022. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

It took me a while to locate this but the timetable comparison site shows that Saturday services are Gatwick Exoress but previously they were Southern. Just compare the 6:39.

Rail - Timetable Comparison

Side-by-side comparison of adjacent UK National Rail timetable periods by location or TOC

live-departures.info

So my point on why the Gatwick Express' aren't running stands. Did the DfT request this change? I mean it must take time to put in the additional stops and retime the services, even though only slightly. After all, a 2-minute timing might lead to conflicts on route and planning resources are right due to needing to work on the blockade.

 

[Cricketer8for9]

I was on one of the East Croydon to Victoria services this morning, just after 8am. Front carriage; probably 50 people at most at any point. Coming back at about 1845, even quieter. The rush back to the office is not yet a torrent.

 

[jon0844]

There certainly wasn't a massive surge of people returning to work today from what I could see. I guess Boris isn't going to change things overnight, if at all.

 

[Surreytraveller]

Thought it was Thursday people were supposed to be going back to work?

 

[Kieran1990]

I was on one of the East Croydon to Victoria services this morning, just after 8am. Front carriage; probably 50 people at most at any point. Coming back at about 1845, even quieter. The rush back to the office is not yet a torrent.

I travelled London Bridge-Dorking at 16:25, I had the 2nd coach of 10 carriages to myself. London Bridge was very sparse on people, so I would say not a real rush back to the office.

I have to say I forgot how slow the journey via Peckham is though.

 

[JonathanH]

Thought it was Thursday people were supposed to be going back to work?

No, it is just enabling. Many offices still on reduced capacity. Many workers very happy to still be at home. Many employers happy with the work of their employees.

The requirement to work from home for those able to do so was lifted last Thursday.

 

[Bald Rick]

Thought it was Thursday people were supposed to be going back to work?

last Thursday, yes - that’s when the guidance ended.

 

[Ian1971]

Still no Victoria Reigate trains apart from Weekends, no Victoria from Coulsdon apart from weekends
The weekend service is now better than the weekday.
GTR seem to see this as an opportunity to no longer provide a proper service.
When I moved here 18 years ago in the rush hour we had 4 trains an hour to London Bridge and 4 to Victoria we now have no Victoria services

 

[Peregrine 4903]

Still no Victoria Reigate trains apart from Weekends, no Victoria from Coulsdon apart from weekends
The weekend service is now better than the weekday.
GTR seem to see this as an opportunity to no longer provide a proper service.
When I moved here 18 years ago in the rush hour we had 4 trains an hour to London Bridge and 4 to Victoria we now have no Victoria services

This is a temperary situation, that I can assure you.

 

[FOH]

For most people I know in the city, mandatory return is next week at 60% of days

 

[ComUtoR]

Britons return to work on first Monday after WFH order was axed

Congestion data today showed the level during the Monday morning rush hour in London was actually down on the same time last week, at 68 per cent for 8am to 9am today - down from 69 per cent,

www.dailymail.co.uk

Mixed results across the city today. Some views of packed trains but some views of empty streets.

I think its too early to tell but plenty around my local station and other Drivers were reporting things getting busier