GTR (Southern) Rejected Delay Repay

[GillsMan]

Hi, I submitted a delay repay request, which has been submitted by Southern.

On 31 May, I caught the 17:03 LBG to CHH. I knew we were close to 15 minutes delay when I arrived at CHH so when I got off the train, I had a look at the departure board at CHH and it said that the train was due to depart 18:02 to Bognor Regis. In fact, it departed at 18:17:03 (i.e. 15 minutes delay).

I put in a delay repay request, which has been rejected as Southern say it was only delayed by 14 minutes. This is probably true if the arrival time is the same as the departure time; in other words, the train was due to arrive and depart at 18:02. But before conceding defeat, I thought I'd check with this forum for any guidance, especially since it definitely departed 15 minutes late from CHH?

Thanks!

 

[londonboi]

dontk now if this helps this is the train on Realtime trains

http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/W60168/2018/05/31

It arrived 14 minutes late as you say but is showing as departing 1minute later (still 14 minutes later)

 

[clagmonster]

According to Real Time Trains, arrived Christs Hospital 18:16, advertised 18:02, so only a 14 minutes delay.
http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/W60125/2018/05/31/advanced

By the way, it is slightly easier for the reader if you use the station name rather than National Location Code. Whilst some are obvious, in this case I initially looked for Chichester.

 

[causton]

Can you please clarify which station you mean?

(As per forum rules, any abbreviations or acronyms should be explained) - CHH is Christ's Hospital (as shown by the link from londonboi198o5) - I assume you might mean Chichester?

 

[londonboi]

Can you please clarify which station you mean?

(As per forum rules, any abbreviations or acronyms should be explained) - CHH is Christ's Hospital (as shown by the link from londonboi198o5) - I assume you might mean Chichester?

The train in question does stop at christs Hospital though so the OP could mean that indeed. Regardless Christs hospital or Chichester the train still arrived 14L at both locations therefore delay repay is correctly refused as it is below the 15 minute time framw for southern.

 

[yorkie]

Definitely not Chichester (which has the similar code CCH) as that would have required the train to be early, but yes the forum rules do require station names to be used the first time (thereafter, the codes can be used, providing they are correct codes).

 

[GillsMan]

Hey, sorry for the confusion - CHH is Christs Hospital. I won't use the acronym from now on!

Thanks for clearing it up; it does appear that it was correctly refused. It departed Christs Hospital 15 minutes late, and as the train departed quickly, I had thought we had arrived 15 minutes late as well, but apparently not. Thanks for everyone's input!

 

[causton]

The train in question does stop at christs Hospital though so the OP could mean that indeed. Regardless Christs hospital or Chichester the train still arrived 14L at both locations therefore delay repay is correctly refused as it is below the 15 minute time framw for southern.

Thanks, I didn't see the station codes in the simple mode and when I clicked advanced mode I didn't see that the train split - and saw the first portion which passes through Christ's Hospital!

 

[yorkie]

Hey, sorry for the confusion - CHH is Christs Hospital. I won't use the acronym from now on!

You can! You just need to mention the name of the station at least once initially, but thereafter it's fine to use the code.

 

[Muzer]

Yes, in this case I imagine since the delay to your journey was only 14 minutes. I've got a similar problem though where TRUST shows the delay as being 14 minutes but due to very slow running between the last signal and the platform, the train actually didn't come to a stand until 15 minutes after its booked time. On a whim in case this happened (I could tell we were coming in much more slowly than usual so knew it was a possibility!) I decided to record a video on my phone of the train coming into the platform and you can clearly see the station clock. I'll let you know how the claim goes!

 

[ForTheLoveOf]

Yes, in this case I imagine since the delay to your journey was only 14 minutes. I've got a similar problem though where TRUST shows the delay as being 14 minutes but due to very slow running between the last signal and the platform, the train actually didn't come to a stand until 15 minutes after its booked time. On a whim in case this happened (I could tell we were coming in much more slowly than usual so knew it was a possibility!) I decided to record a video on my phone of the train coming into the platform and you can clearly see the station clock. I'll let you know how the claim goes!

I don't see it as a whim at all - I don't find it acceptable that the only measure of arrival for the purposes of compensation for passengers, TOCs etc. is when the train left the last detectable location. At some stations, that could occur a good few minutes before the likely door opening.

It's rather like the airlines and how arrival time is now defined as the time when the door(s) are open and passengers can climb down boarding steps. This way, gate delays can't be excluded; however, passengers are still at the mercy of airlines not lying about the true 'arrival time', since the average passenger would find it hard to document this accurately. In any situation where the person providing the information has a vested interest in changing it one way or another, I'm always suspicious as to whether they're being 100% accurate.

 

[bb21]

Yes, in this case I imagine since the delay to your journey was only 14 minutes. I've got a similar problem though where TRUST shows the delay as being 14 minutes but due to very slow running between the last signal and the platform, the train actually didn't come to a stand until 15 minutes after its booked time. On a whim in case this happened (I could tell we were coming in much more slowly than usual so knew it was a possibility!) I decided to record a video on my phone of the train coming into the platform and you can clearly see the station clock. I'll let you know how the claim goes!

Swings and roundabouts. Sometimes you will have an overestimated berth offset and trains arriving slightly earlier than recorded times.

 

[Starmill]

Swings and roundabouts. Sometimes you will have an overestimated berth offset and trains arriving slightly earlier than recorded times.

I'm not sure what effect that would have though, as people wouldn't be delayed enough to log claims in those cases?

 

[Muzer]

Swings and roundabouts. Sometimes you will have an overestimated berth offset and trains arriving slightly earlier than recorded times.

Yeah, sure, if the driver is driving significantly faster than average (which has to be much rarer than driving significantly more slowly than average). In which case I'd log it as being 14 minutes late and not make a claim!

 

[bb21]

I'm not sure what effect that would have though, as people wouldn't be delayed enough to log claims in those cases?

Who told you that?

I see plenty of claims for 28/29 minutes ticking the box saying 30-59 minutes late, same with 57/58/59 delays described as "about an hour" in a complaint. Not everyone stands by the door with a stopwatch.

 

[bb21]

Yeah, sure, if the driver is driving significantly faster than average (which has to be much rarer than driving significantly more slowly than average). In which case I'd log it as being 14 minutes late and not make a claim!

Not necessarily. At some locations, berth offsets can be over/under-estimated by a small but significant margin for a variety of reasons. They are usually small margins and if there is a big issue with a sufficient number of drivers going slower than usual, numerically speaking this should be picked up in at least some of the observations.

Yes, outliers do exist, but the bigger impact in terms of customer journey experience is much more likely to be a small delay at door release upon wheel stop than driver going slightly faster/slower than average. There are often other tools that can be used to dig deeper if needed be. Not always but often the case.

It isn't a perfect system, but that is the system we have. Short of wasting lots of money on the infrastructure that isn't going to change. Many TOCs have other data source they could refer to if they need to as I mentioned, so it isn't necessarily the end of the world if you happen to be on one of those trains which ended up on the wrong side of the threshold erroneously.

 

[Starmill]

Who told you that?

I see plenty of claims for 28/29 minutes ticking the box saying 30-59 minutes late, same with 57/58/59 delays described as "about an hour" in a complaint. Not everyone stands by the door with a stopwatch.

Your point was that it's 'swings and roundabouts' that valid claims are sometimes denied on the basis that fraudulent or mistaken claims are sometimes approved. The point I was making was that this is really a false equivalence, as if someone has a valid claim they are likely to make it, but it's not especially likely that someone will, through happenstance, make an incorrect claim and luckily get it paid due to low quality data.
I'm sure you're right though some people genuinely do put 59 minute delays in as an hour, not least just because of clocks or watches that aren't syncrhonised properly.

 

[Steveoh]

Your point was that it's 'swings and roundabouts' that valid claims are sometimes denied on the basis that fraudulent or mistaken claims are sometimes approved. The point I was making was that this is really a false equivalence, as if someone has a valid claim they are likely to make it, but it's not especially likely that someone will, through happenstance, make an incorrect claim and luckily get it paid due to low quality data.
I'm sure you're right though some people genuinely do put 59 minute delays in as an hour, not least just because of clocks or watches that aren't syncrhonised properly.
.

and of course lots of people don't claim at all even when they're entitled to do so. Perhaps erring on the side of a favourable outcome for the passenger / customer isn't a bad thing?