Guildford-Croydon Routes and Tickets

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cookan

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9 May 2016
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Hi guys,
I'm struggling with this daily commute ! I'm right in the middle of West and East Croydon so can choose either station but have been opting for the West Croydon 17:14 direct to Guildford with the backup plan of the 17:43 direct to guildford.

The problem occurs like today, both trains get reported cancelled so the only option is to run to East Croydon...

Now East Croydon options are 17:15 via Redhill, 17:48 via Redhill, then 18:14 changing at Clapham and Woking

Now, having purchased an Any Permitted Return I was assuming that would cover the route via Redhill as it seems a convenient route when I search on national rail but I'm being told that the Redhill route isn't one of the Any Permitted Routes and checking the route maps on the atoc site I see there's no line from Redhill to Dorking to guildford..(London + PD + SC)

My question is
1) is there a ticket that I can buy that would cover me Guildford to Croydon via either Redhill, Direct through Epsom, or via Clapham.
2) why can't I get anything other than a Daily Return "Any Permitted Route"
3) if I can't get a ticket for all those useful routes in one, which leg/s of the Croydon to Guildford via Redhill routes are/aren't covered by the Any Permitted Route..

I claim all my travel back so it's not really a big deal in terms of cost so if there's an outlandish options thats more expensive than the 31.10 I pay for what I think is an Any Permitted = via London or Epsom route...that would also cover via Redhill...no problem...just gives me the option instead of adding an hour to the journey if the west croydon trains get cancelled.

many thanks !
Ant.
 
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Paul Kelly

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You may use the "ANY PERMITTED" fare via Redhill, since the "VIA REDHILL" fare is cheaper. See Step 4 in the routeing guide instructions:
http://iblocks-rg-publication.s3-website-eu-west-1.amazonaws.com/nrg_instructions.pdf said:
An "any permitted" ticket cannot be used for travel on a route not listed in the Routeing Guide for which a higher priced route specific fare exists. It can be used on any route not listed in the Routeing Guide for which a lower priced route specific fare exists.
 

cookan

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9 May 2016
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ahh thanks for the quick answer ! So I think you're referring to this in Step 4..

"It can be used on any route not listed in the Routeing Guide for which a lower priced route specific fare exists."

Which I take to mean...I can throw away the routing points and maps I've downloaded because providing a return from croydon-guildford via redhill is cheaper than an 'Any Permitted' routes ticket from croydon-guildford...it's a valid route to take...

We've got a number of guys commuting from guildford area to Croydon atm that are avoiding the redhill route because someone got stopped on that route with an any permitted ticket. I also spoke to Guildford ticket office on friday and found another guy asking the same question to which the response was the any permitted ticket wasn't valid via Redhill...(the ticket salesman also phoned someone up on his mobile to get the answer)...I think I'll print off the routing guide ;)

thanks,
Ant.
 

FenMan

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I suspect there's more to this and can understand why issues have been reported for travel via Redhill.

There are 4 Anytime Day Returns offered:-
£31.20 ✠ANY PERMITTED
£27.40 VIA REDHILL
£21.60 NOT VIA LONDON
£16.60 NOT VIA CLAPHM J


The tickets highlighted are not valid for travel via Redhill, even though the route restriction does not appear to bar travel by this route.
 

greatkingrat

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You are probably better off just buying the £16.60 Not Via Clapham J ticket and paying the excess fare of £5.40 if you need to return via Redhill.
 

asharpe

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To complicate matters slightly the three mile rule also kind of applies.

I can't check at the moment but I recall it's under 3 miles to South Croydon (same ticket destination) and booking engines allow a slight margin on top of that to allow for rounding. So some booking engines will sell a Not Via Clapham Junction ticket for travel via Redhill.
 

SickyNicky

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To complicate matters slightly the three mile rule also kind of applies.

I can't check at the moment but I recall it's under 3 miles to South Croydon (same ticket destination) and booking engines allow a slight margin on top of that to allow for rounding. So some booking engines will sell a Not Via Clapham Junction ticket for travel via Redhill.

A Guildford to South Croydon ticket is valid via Redhill provided you travel via Purley. The following itinerary would be valid on a:

Code:
GUILDFORD	SOUTH CROYDON	SDS ANYTIME DAY S	  	NOT VIA CLAPHM J
Not valid for travel via (changing trains or passing through) Clapham Junction.
1 [email protected] £8.80	0 [email protected] £4.40	£8.80

OUTWARD JOURNEY Guildford to South Croydon
Mileage 29.87 (Shortest possible 28.56)
Permitted: Within 3 miles of shortest route.

Code:
Leg 1   TRAIN
GW	First Great Western
GW5024–1O72
Train from Reading to Gatwick Airport	Trolley Service 1st Class Accommodation
Guildford	----	d. 1310
Dorking (Deepdene)	a. 1326	d. 1326
Reigate	a. 1333	d. 1334
Redhill	a. 1338	----

Leg 2   TRAIN
TL	Thameslink
TL2044–2W40
Train from Three Bridges to Bedford	1st Class Accommodation
Redhill	----	d. 1347
Merstham	a. 1351	d. 1351
Coulsdon South	a. 1356	d. 1356
Purley	a. 1359	----

Leg 3   TRAIN
SN	Southern
SN1105–2P43
Train from Caterham to London Victoria	
Purley	----	d. 1408
Purley Oaks	a. 1411	d. 1411
South Croydon	a. 1414	----

However, travelling from (or via) East Croydon and Redhill isn't permitted except on a VIA REDHILL or more expensive fare:

Code:
Routeing issue(s):
Not a permitted route
OUTWARD JOURNEY Guildford to East Croydon
Mileage 30.77 (Shortest possible 27.66)
Origin Routeing Point – Guildford
Terminus is a routeing point
Destination Routeing Point – CROYDON GROUP
Terminus is a routeing point
Through Mapped Route
Checking GLD-GOM-G10-G60-G08
Off route at DORKING GROUP
Not Permitted: Not traceable as mapped route. 
Mapped Route TO London
Not Permitted: LONDON mapped route: journey doesn't go via London. 
Not Permitted: Not traceable as mapped route.
 

cookan

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So...what do I do....
when the ticket office man at Guildford is adamant that the Any Permitted Anytime Day Return Guildford to East/West Croydon is NOT valid via Redhill ?

I didn't think it'd be long before I ran in to issues !

He said "it's not valid", I said.."but it is..I've checked"...he said "it's not"...I said "it is...because there is a cheaper ticket for that route and I'm paying more"...he said "it doesn't make any difference it's not a valid route"...I said "the route is disregarded if there's a cheaper fare than the ticket I'm travelling on"..he said "the cost of the ticket has nothing to do with it"...I said, "take a look at Step 4 of the Route Guidance"..he said, "travel on it then...most guards won't know any better, but I'm telling you..IT'S NOT VALID"....so we left it at that as it was a Friday after all...

so how do I get a definitive answer in case I'm stopped by a revenue collector... ?

thanks,
Ant.
 
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steveo43

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Hi, just a Idea, don't know how much longer the journey would be. Have you thought about going via Wimbledon then catching the Croydon tram across? I wouldn't know how much longer it would take you or the cost.
 

Busaholic

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Hi, just a Idea, don't know how much longer the journey would be. Have you thought about going via Wimbledon then catching the Croydon tram across? I wouldn't know how much longer it would take you or the cost.

12 trams per hour now on routes 3 and 4 combined from Wimbledon to Croydon. If you work somewhere between East and West Croydon stations then the tram will almost certainly take you nearer to your place of work too.
 

cookan

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I looked at that also but it's about 20+ mins longer journey and the Redhill route and direct trains are good as I get a seat and plenty of space so easy to work on the train..
 

SickyNicky

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so how do I get a definitive answer in case I'm stopped by a revenue collector...

I would take a copy of the National Rail Conditions of Carriage with you, specifically condition 13(e).

Then, if the ticket inspector informs you that your ticket isn't valid, ask him for a change of route excess under condition 13(e). Because you've already paid more than the VIA REDHILL ticket, the excess will cost £0. He almost certainly won't even try to issue one, and will just let you travel.

You could even try the same at Guildford ticket office if they get difficult about issuing a ticket to you.

You could also take a copy of step 4 in the Routeing Guide instructions (linked to by Indigo2 above) with you.

However, greatkingrat's earlier suggestion would be cheaper.
 
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cookan

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great suggestion and thanks for the pointer to the condition...I'll do that.

Appreciate it's much cheaper to get a top up ticket when I need to go via redhill but I just want a ticket that covers all possibilities..bad enough having to buy one each day. The reality of my commute is that randomly I get caught in the traffic on the way into guildford, an unexpected delay for some reason, I get to the carpark and walk briskly to the back entrance and find a queue of 10 people for the 1 ticket machine that's working..run across the bridge and jump on the 07:22 which is usually when things simmer down and all goes well until it's time to leave work. At 17:00 precisely, I leave the office and get stopped by someone wanted to just 'catch-up', I've built in 5 mins leaway so no trouble...the lift from the 4th floor seems to take a long time to arrive however so I belt it down the stairs and run out onto the street swearing at coworkers sauntering out of the only exit to the building..picking my way through the office blocks to cross the main road and dodging the busses and people to get into West Croydon station where I find the 17:14 is now terminating at Leatherhead and the 17:43 is cancelled....so I run from West Croydon to East Croydon aiming for the 17:48 via Redhill..the last thing I want to do at that point is queue up for ticket ;)

If all goes well...I get to guildford and remember to buy a ticket for tomorrow before picking my way through backroads to avoid the A3 crush and get home in time of the nanny to leave !
 
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