Guildford to Birmingham via Clapham Junction and Watford Junction

[infobleep]

Looking up train services to Birmingham from Guildford and one service that comes up is:
6.53 to Clapham Junction
7.39 to Watford Junction
8.37 to Birmingham New Street

However although National Rail Enquiries Web site displays the journey, it doesn't display a fare. Does anyone know why?

Is the West London Line not valid for services between Guildford and Birmingham?

There is also the following:.
7.45 to Woking
8.00 to Basingstoke
8.28 to Birmingham

That is 2 minutes faster than going via Reading but isn't valid. I guess again it's not a valid route. That's more understandable than the Watford Junction one above.

Does anyone know why National Rail Enquiries feel the need to show routes for which a ticket cannot be purchased and no price is displayed?

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[Tetchytyke]

My guess is that it is related to the way in which the West London Line services have been put back into the system after the summer's disruption on Southern. Going via the WLL is valid, and you can get NRES to show validity that way on other (LOROL) trains if you put Shepherd's Bush as a via point.

Until 5 September the 0739 train is cancelled, so I guess they've just not put it back in properly.

 

[greatkingrat]

According to maps PD+EB of the Routeing Guide Guildford - Clapham Jn - Willesden Jn - Watford Jn - Birmingham is a permitted route.

I suspect the problem may be that the Southern trains from Clapham to Watford don't actually pass through Willesden Junction and that is why the journey planner is rejecting the route.

 

[infobleep]

My guess is that it is related to the way in which the West London Line services have been put back into the system after the summer's disruption on Southern. Going via the WLL is valid, and you can get NRES to show validity that way on other (LOROL) trains if you put Shepherd's Bush as a via point.

Until 5 September the 0739 train is cancelled, so I guess they've just not put it back in properly.

I think your right.

According to maps PD+EB of the Routeing Guide Guildford - Clapham Jn - Willesden Jn - Watford Jn - Birmingham is a permitted route.

I suspect the problem may be that the Southern trains from Clapham to Watford don't actually pass through Willesden Junction and that is why the journey planner is rejecting the route.

Surely Wilsden Junction would include the lines that avoid the London Overground / Underground part of the station. The avoiding lines use to have platforms until they were demolished.

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[PermitToTravel]

The journey planner determines the route of the train by looking at its timing points, and unfortunately trains that way are timed via the Junction but not via the Station

 

[swt_passenger]

I think your right.

Surely Wilsden Junction would include the lines that avoid the London Overground / Underground part of the station. The avoiding lines use to have platforms until they were demolished.

I don't think 'avoiding lines' is the correct terminology here, the 6 'platformless' lines of the WCML at this point (the normal 4 and the 2 that connect the WLL, are considered the main lines.

I expect the DC lines and the NL lines at this point are treated entirely separately in underlying software systems. This 'separate route' issue on the DC lines and the WCML has come up for discussion before though, someone may remember the exact issue, and how it was solved.

 

[infobleep]

I don't think 'avoiding lines' is the correct terminology here, the 6 'platformless' lines of the WCML at this point (the normal 4 and the 2 that connect the WLL, are considered the main lines.

I expect the DC lines and the NL lines at this point are treated entirely separately in underlying software systems. This 'separate route' issue on the DC lines and the WCML has come up for discussion before though, someone may remember the exact issue, and how it was solved.

I thought it would count because at Didcot, I believe the lines Rhat avoid it, still count as being part of Didcot.

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[causton]

I believe the mainline WCML and Southern services (i.e. all but the Overground services) use "Willesden West London Junction" as the location. Many places translate this location to Willesden Junction including National Rail, but I don't know if the journey planners do.

 

[infobleep]

I believe the mainline WCML and Southern services (i.e. all but the Overground services) use "Willesden West London Junction" as the location. Many places translate this location to Willesden Junction including National Rail, but I don't know if the journey planners do.

Going via the West London line on a Southern service would surely take a few people off the tube. Not many but everyone counts.

Of course the Southern services are busy themselves.

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[Paul Kelly]

All fares between Guildford and Birmingham are routed either VIA LONDON, VIA OXFORD or VIA HIGH WYCOMBE. The route via Kensington Olympia does not go via any of these locations, hence no fare can be found.

 

[greatkingrat]

Yes, I think that is the issue. Of course in practice I am sure the +Via London ticket would be accepted via Olympia.

 

[infobleep]

All fares between Guildford and Birmingham are routed either VIA LONDON, VIA OXFORD or VIA HIGH WYCOMBE. The route via Kensington Olympia does not go via any of these locations, hence no fare can be found.

That is explains it. If I put in another station, for example Gatwick Airport, that produces a fare.

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[Andrew1395]

I believe the mainline WCML and Southern services (i.e. all but the Overground services) use "Willesden West London Junction" as the location. Many places translate this location to Willesden Junction including National Rail, but I don't know if the journey planners do.

In the source timetable data there are many examples of railway locations (junctions) associated with stations, so that any passing time at that location is translated in journey planners as passing through the linked station. This is necessary for many routeing points where passing lines would otherwise mean trains are not seen going through an obligatory routeing point and failing the mapped permissions in place.

 

[PermitToTravel]

I think it's fair to say that Willesden West London Junction, or possibly Mitre Bridge Junction, should be such assignments.

 

[infobleep]

In the source timetable data there are many examples of railway locations (junctions) associated with stations, so that any passing time at that location is translated in journey planners as passing through the linked station. This is necessary for many routeing points where passing lines would otherwise mean trains are not seen going through an obligatory routeing point and failing the mapped permissions in place.

That's what I thought. However I'd not consider the fact no fare for the route existed. Perhaps if Guildford had an any permitted route ticket, the problem would go away.

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[swt_passenger]

If you think it's useful suggest it to SWT. There's always the possibility they just forgotten to add it. Are there any fares from Guildford via the WLL at all, such as to Milton Keynes or Bletchley for examples?

 

[pt15sb]

Yes, I think that is the issue. Of course in practice I am sure the +Via London ticket would be accepted via Olympia.

Interestingly enough, the anytime single +Via London ticket is £105. To split into three different tickets along the same lines as OP has laid out is cheaper.

Guildford - Clapham Junction Anytime Single = £10.40
Clapham Junction - Watford Junction Anytime Single via Ken Olympia = £9.30
Watford Junction - Birmingham New Street Anytime Single not via London = £79.50 (only £38 if opting for slower London Midland train)
Total = £99.20 (or only £57.70 if choosing the slower London Midland service)

 

[Tirov]

There is a direct Guildford to Birmingham via Reading train at 0602 each weekday morning. Otherwise 2 trains per hour and change at Reading for 2 trains per hour to Birmingham.

 

[infobleep]

There is a direct Guildford to Birmingham via Reading train at 0602 each weekday morning. Otherwise 2 trains per hour and change at Reading for 2 trains per hour to Birmingham.

Interestingly for the date I looked at, the advanced purchase tickets via Reading were more expensive than those via Euston or Marylebone. Yet the anytime tickets from Euston were more expensive than those via Reading!

Euston has more trains to Birmingham which explains it. I assume the Reading route is just as busy as those leaving Euston.

However Marylebone is cheaper than either of them. To the point where that might be the best route to take price wise vers flexibility. I like the idea of travelling on that route as I've not done it to Birmingham.

Saying all of this I'm not actually travelling from Guildford that day. I was just checking a variety of stations out of interest, Guildford being one of them and it was there I noticed this issue.

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[FenMan]

Interestingly for the date I looked at, the advanced purchase tickets via Reading were more expensive than those via Euston or Marylebone. Yet the anytime tickets from Euston were more expensive than those via Reading!

Euston has more trains to Birmingham which explains it. I assume the Reading route is just as busy as those leaving Euston.

However Marylebone is cheaper than either of them. To the point where that might be the best route to take price wise vers flexibility. I like the idea of travelling on that route as I've not done it to Birmingham.

Saying all of this I'm not actually travelling from Guildford that day. I was just checking a variety of stations out of interest, Guildford being one of them and it was there I noticed this issue.

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The golden rule for travelling to Birmingham via Reading from NDL stations is to split walk-up tickets at Banbury. This delivers significant savings whether travelling peak or off peak, for a day trip or for a longer period. XC Advances on this route are not good value.

 

[infobleep]

The golden rule for travelling to Birmingham via Reading from NDL stations is to split walk-up tickets at Banbury. This delivers significant savings whether travelling peak or off peak, for a day trip or for a longer period. XC Advances on this route are not good value.

Funny you should say that. Splitting advances on Cross Country also saves money! I was also looking at those as well as flexible tickets.

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