Guildford to Eynsford a route that appears to be valid is showing as invalid

[infobleep]

I'm looking to travel from Guildford to Eynsford later this week after 09:30, returning perhaps around 18:00.

Going out there is a straight forward route as follows:
09:49 Guildford to Clapham Junction 10:22
10:38 Clapham Junction to London Victoria 10:45
10:55 London Victoria to Bromley South 11:11
11:23 Bromley South to Eynsford arriving at 11:41.
It takes 1h52m

However, the return journey is more interesting. The fastest route offered is:
18:05 Eynsford to Denmark Hill 18:46
18:52 Denmark Hill to Clapham Junction 19:05
19:22 Clapham Junction to Guildford arriving at 19:52.
This takes 1 hour 48 minutes. However, National Rail Enquiries says it is not valid.

What National Rail Enquiries suggest that is valid is the following:
18:05 Eynsford to Bickley 18:19
18:31 Bickley to Beckenham Junction 18:40
18:45 Beckenham Junction to Crystal Palace 18:52
19:08 Crystal Palace to West Croydon 19:21
19:45 West Croydon to Epsom 19:45
20:13 Epsom to Guildford arriving in at 20:47.
This takes 2 hours 42m and is 54 minutes longer than the previous one.

I have checked the routing guide.
Origin Routeing Points Evaluated

Name	Code	Validity
Guildford	GLD	Guildford is a routeing point or member of a routeing group.

Destination Routeing Points Evaluated:

Name	Code	Validity
Otford (OTFORD GROUP)	OTF (G83)	Allowed by any route at NFM64: SDS from GLD to OTF on route 00615: £11.30 is NOT more expensive than SDS from GLD to EYN on route 00000: £11.70.
Kemsing (OTFORD GROUP)	KMS (G83)	Kemsing is a group member that cannot be reached without passing another member of the group.
Swanley	SAY	Allowed by exact match at NFM64: CDS from GLD to SAY on route 00000: £10.00 is NOT more expensive than CDS from GLD to EYN on route 00000: £10.00.

I checked the yellow pages and Otford brought back the map combinations:
LONDON
AR+FO [This is a route via Redhill]
PU+FA
PU+FC

Swanley brought back
LONDON
PU+FA
PU+FC

The routes from Guildford to London are:
DK
EF
HR
PU+EF

The routes from London to Otford are:
FA
FC
FH
FT
FV
HK+HC
OT
SV

The routes from London to Swanley are:
FA
FC
FH
FL
FT
FV
OT

Can anyone explain to me why going via Denmark Hill isn't permitted? FA goes via Clapham Junction so combining that with a Guildford to London group should produce a route but it isn't doing so on National Rail Enquiries.

There is a negative easement: 000104
Type: Circuitous Route
Details: Journeys from Bickley, Bromley South, Shortlands, Beckenham Junction, Kent House, Penge East, Sydenham Hill and West Dulwich may not go to London, Elephant and Castle, Denmark Hill, Peckham Rye, Nunhead or Loughborough Junction via Petts Wood. This applies in both directions

I wouldn't have thought this would apply. I checked whether this was a quirk of the COVID-19 timetables and fewer trains running but it isn't. It's a similar issue in late September.

I have checked the fares and there is only a set of an any permitted fare and season tickets.

I guess, looking on the positive side if going the longer route increases the chances of a connection being missed, at least delay repay would be due, However, even the route via Denmark Hill includes a 6 minutes connection change.

 

[ForTheLoveOf]

I'm not sure that NRE is capable of combining maps to and from London to determine that a given route is a permitted route. That doesn't mean the route isn't a permitted route.

 

[infobleep]

I'm not sure that NRE is capable of combining maps to and from London to determine that a given route is a permitted route. That doesn't mean the route isn't a permitted route.

If that is the case, I didn't know that.

I know NRE is rubbish but I tend to use the app as it's official and it has live departure boards and timetable searches in the same app. I've used it for a long time. It also has no ads as I paid for it a some years ago.

There are likely to be better ones out there of course.

I guess there isn't any point in raising it with them as those with the power to make changes probably don't care.

 

[kieron]

I know NRE is rubbish but I tend to use the app as it's official and it has live departure boards and timetable searches in the same app. I've used it for a long time. It also has no ads as I paid for it a some years ago.

There are likely to be better ones out there of course.

There's a route on the FA map from Swanley to London via Clapham Junction, and a route from London to Guildford via Clapham Junction and Woking on EF+PU.

The route you want doesn't appear on any of the map combinations which don't go through London. FA includes Denmark Hill, but someone following FA+PU would to cross over to PU at Peckham Rye at the latest, and so wouldn't get there.

Effectively, you would like to only use part of a valid route, and would like an app which recognises this and tells you if you can use a through ticket for it. I don't know if any app can do this, and I imagine it would be quite hard to write one as there could be a number of ways to go in and out of London which could match up with any particular itinerary.

One thing an app should be able to do, though, is look for routes which go through London. I don't know which day has an 18:08 departure from Eynsford, but the best suggestion the NRE web site gives for today (Thursday) is:

Eynsford 18:05-18:22 Bromley South 18:33-18:51 London Victoria 19:05-19:11 Clapham Junction 19:22-19:53 Guildford

It does see this route as being valid with a through ticket.

 

[infobleep]

There's a route on the FA map from Swanley to London via Clapham Junction, and a route from London to Guildford via Clapham Junction and Woking on EF+PU.

The route you want doesn't appear on any of the map combinations which don't go through London. FA includes Denmark Hill, but someone following FA+PU would to cross over to PU at Peckham Rye at the latest, and so wouldn't get there.

Effectively, you would like to only use part of a valid route, and would like an app which recognises this and tells you if you can use a through ticket for it. I don't know if any app can do this, and I imagine it would be quite hard to write one as there could be a number of ways to go in and out of London which could match up with any particular itinerary.

One thing an app should be able to do, though, is look for routes which go through London. I don't know which day has an 18:08 departure from Eynsford, but the best suggestion the NRE web site gives for today (Thursday) is:

Eynsford 18:05-18:22 Bromley South 18:33-18:51 London Victoria 19:05-19:11 Clapham Junction 19:22-19:53 Guildford

It does see this route as being valid with a through ticket.

Apologies it should have read 18:05 and not 18:08. I will change it.

It's interesting that the Web Site says change at Bromley South as the app says Denmark Hill. I might expect the change points to be the same, given it uses the same engine behind

Bromley South actually gives you a better interchange time in case of delays. Of course if one wanted the best chance to claim delay repay, changing af Denmark Hill gives that. I'm not perticularly bother but I do find it interesting to see which valid routes are least likely to work in terms of connections.

The times for Eynsford on the National Rail Enquiries App are as below and I've included a screenshot too. I would havw thought the app would match the Web Site in terms of change over points.

18:05 Eynsford to Denmark Hill 18:46
18:52 Denmark Hill to Clapham Junction 19:05
19:22 Clapham Junction to Guildford arriving at 19:52.
This takes 1 hour 48 minutes. However, National Rail Enquiries says it is not valid.



More generally, when using London, I was combining the in and out map. I hadn't realised it look at the maps separately.

So I was doing a FA+EF+PU, which is obviously not right. So it wasn't so much that I expecting it to look at part of routes, more than I was thinking it would combine map combinations. I can see how part routes would be hard to program.

I've learnt something useful so many thanks.

As to which route I take tomorrow, there are so many choices it's hard to decide. Part of me wants to go cross country to travel on the Tonbridge line ine and part wants to go into London. I think it will depend on what time I leave Eynsford for the journey back.

 

[30907]

The issue seems to be that map PU for some reason doesn't cover Wimbledon to Clapham Jn, meaning you can only use that section if you go via London.

Map FA allows Wandsworth Rd-CLJ-Vic, so to comply you need to double back CLJ-VIC-CLJ - I imagine a virtual double-back would be permissible? At least there isn't a NOT LONDON fare for your journey so you aren't out of pocket.

 

[infobleep]

The issue seems to be that map PU for some reason doesn't cover Wimbledon to Clapham Jn, meaning you can only use that section if you go via London.

Map FA allows Wandsworth Rd-CLJ-Vic, so to comply you need to double back CLJ-VIC-CLJ - I imagine a virtual double-back would be permissible? At least there isn't a NOT LONDON fare for your journey so you aren't out of pocket.

I'll need to look at the routing maps again. I think my head is hurt with all of this!

A solution would be to add another spur to Clapham Junction. I mean if Stretham group is ib South West London then surely so is Clapham Junction, given that is in between Stretham group and Barns. There again even Kingston upon Thames is in South West London and rhat isn't inclined.

Perhaps the routing map title for PU is misleading. The title is:
Portsmouth via Woking to Surbtion and SW London

Perhaps it could read Portsmouth via Woking and Wimbledon to Barns and Stretham Gorup.

Alas the wording is too long.