GWR ask passengers to arrive 15 mins before departure

[Horizon22]

Boarding the train at the last minute also unfairly disadvantages anyone who has made the effort to be there in good time. Late arrivals are often very adept at getting to the doors first.

Also at some places inevitable if the stock is not physically there yet. Lots of suburban services do have marginal turnaround times and a little bit of late running can make the timings for boarding rather smalll. One option is to just board the train prior to it physically being there once a train is confirmed being routed in; however platforms can get very congested (especially as arrivals try to get off too) and some operators are wary of that. However at some stations services are boarded before the arrival is there and it just about works, so there’s no hard and fast rule.

And I'm still waiting for an explanation of why e.g. the Swiss (and in fact most of europe I think) can include dispatch time as part of the travel time when the UK can't? (I know which system is more logical and easy to understand as a passenger...)

I did give you an explanation earlier but you seemed to not want to accept it. As I said before, xx:xx:00 departure time here means “train moving”. Therefore to actual get that to happen, the process will start 30-60 seconds beforehand. The solution to this is do a “public offset” to the timetable for all trains by say, a minute. I don’t know what the Swiss do, but it’s probably similar or the dispatch process is for some other reason much quicker. Ultimately though we’re arguing about very fine margins; just turn up for your train at a decent time. If a train is boarded late, it more than likely means it’s going out late.

 

[James James]

I did give you an explanation earlier but you seemed to not want to accept it. As I said before, xx:xx:00 departure time here means “train moving”. Therefore to actual get that to happen, the process will start 30-60 seconds beforehand. The solution to this is do a “public offset” to the timetable for all trains by say, a minute. I don’t know what the Swiss do, but it’s probably similar or the dispatch process is for some other reason much quicker. Ultimately though we’re arguing about very fine margins; just turn up for your train at a decent time. If a train is boarded late, it more than likely means it’s going out late.

But it simply doesn't make sense. Why does the UK have to insist on this illogical timetabling "logic" that doesn't serve the passengers expectation?

And why do you keep insisting on an offset which is proven to be unnecessary. Unaccompanied trains in Switzerland lock doors at :00, and will be moving by :15, it's a bit longer for accompanied trains - but there's simply no logical or sensible reason to add a 1 minute margin here. Just tell the passenger at what time they'll no longer be able to board.

Why do these margins matter? They don't, but it's stupid to publish a time that doesn't actually tell you when you need to be on the train by - and on some occasions it might save you from running to make a tight connection when you know you won't make it (easy to know if doors close at published time), vs having no idea (because you might still make it before published time, but some wizard decided to randomly close the doors earlier without even bothering to tell you the offset).

 

[dingdinger]

At Waterloo I usually turn up 15 to 20 minutes ahead of a train (having just missed one...) then along with everybody else hang around for 10 minutes waiting for them to put the platform on the departure board. They never let you on the train until 10 minutes before, sometimes as short as 5 minutes.

If the train is there and you know it's your train (real time trains is usually accurate) then I would jump on. In my experience Waterloo is relaxed on this and not like Euston who don't like you hanging around on platforms unless the train is up on the board. In my own experience at Waterloo when the inbound coaches come in the service is displayed on the boards fairly quickly- I guess it's also a balance of waiting for people to get off and clear the platform first so there isn't a head on traffic jam of people.

 

[Bletchleyite]

If the train is there and you know it's your train (real time trains is usually accurate) then I would jump on.

Wait until it goes "at platform", though, it's only after that point that it's totally accurate in my experience. Except for some reason Victoria where it's often wrong even then.

In my experience Waterloo is relaxed on this and not like Euston who don't like you hanging around on platforms unless the train is up on the board.

It's only Avanti at Euston that care because they will want to do a boarding check, nothing stopping you hanging around on the ramp to be first in the queue, though. LNR don't mind because they have a gateline at 8-11 and don't do boarding checks elsewhere.

LNR however won't let you be on board if they're splitting or joining a set, so before making a nuisance of yourself check if that's happening.

The only station where I've had a gobful from staff for having the temerity to use RTT is (back on topic) Paddington. And I wasn't even on the platform, just standing near the appropriate gateline. The member of staff openly lied to me that the train wasn't what I said it was, and was very red-faced and quite unpleasant about it when it went up on the boards proving it was.

 

[dingdinger]

Wait until it goes "at platform", though, it's only after that point that it's totally accurate in my experience.

True but if you double check the headcodes for the inbound coaches on open train times you can also get an accurate platform as the train is being routed in.

 

[Bletchleyite]

True but if you double check the headcodes for the inbound coaches on open train times you can also get an accurate platform as the train is being routed in.

Waterloo may be different, but at Euston they seem to be linked so when the arrival platform "goes bold" the outbound one does for that train too.

 

[QueensCurve]

In my view, trains should be advertised to depart at the latest time you can board them, but the above is established industry practice and seems unlikely to change.

But 15 mins? Sorry, no.

Agreed wholeheartedly.

 

[bahnause]

And why do you keep insisting on an offset which is proven to be unnecessary. Unaccompanied trains in Switzerland lock doors at :00, and will be moving by :15, it's a bit longer for accompanied trains - but there's simply no logical or sensible reason to add a 1 minute margin here. Just tell the passenger at what time they'll no longer be able to board.

That's exactly how it works over here. There is a working Timtable which can be different to the published timetable. They differ for various operational reasons, one of them is the departure process. The planned time for this process is different for the various train types and the despatch method. Here is an example. The WTT times are marked green, the published times red. Published times are always later then the WTT times. Every passenger knows when to be on the train without doing a math exam depending on the station and the train operator. The customer is in the focus, not the timetable.



However, the train driver actually sees a third timetable based on the optimum departure time for an energy optimised drive. This is calculated daily based on the planned traffic. The optimum speed is shown in violett, the maximum speed in black:

 

[Bletchleyite]

Interesting that those appear to be tenths of a minute rather than seconds?

 

[Watershed]

That's exactly how it works over here. There is a working Timtable which can be different to the published timetable. They differ for various operational reasons, one of them is the departure process. The planned time for this process is different for the various train types and the despatch method. Here is an example. The WTT times are marked green, the published times red. Published times are always later then the WTT times. Every passenger knows when to be on the train without doing a math exam depending on the station and the train operator. The customer is in the focus, not the timetable.

View attachment 104752

However, the train driver actually sees a third timetable based on the optimum departure time for an energy optimised drive. This is calculated daily based on the planned traffic. The optimum speed is shown in violett, the maximum speed in black:

View attachment 104754

Thank you, a perfect example of the wildly differing approaches to public transport. In Switzerland, trains are run for the benefit of the public (i.e. passengers). Here, they are run in whichever manner is simplest and most operationally convenient.

 

[bahnause]

Interesting that those appear to be tenths of a minute rather than seconds?

The planning system in the first picture uses tenth of a minute, that's close enough (16:33:5 = 16:33:30). The drivers iPad shows 6th of a minute (16:33:5 = 16:33:50) which is much more user friendly.

 

[Western Sunset]

Will Delay Repay begin 15 min earlier too then?

 

[Watershed]

Will Delay Repay begin 15 min earlier too then?

We're referring to departure times here, so there won't be any effect on Delay Repay.

 

[Wolfie]

But it simply doesn't make sense. Why does the UK have to insist on this illogical timetabling "logic" that doesn't serve the passengers expectation?

And why do you keep insisting on an offset which is proven to be unnecessary. Unaccompanied trains in Switzerland lock doors at :00, and will be moving by :15, it's a bit longer for accompanied trains - but there's simply no logical or sensible reason to add a 1 minute margin here. Just tell the passenger at what time they'll no longer be able to board.

Why do these margins matter? They don't, but it's stupid to publish a time that doesn't actually tell you when you need to be on the train by - and on some occasions it might save you from running to make a tight connection when you know you won't make it (easy to know if doors close at published time), vs having no idea (because you might still make it before published time, but some wizard decided to randomly close the doors earlier without even bothering to tell you the offset).

Probably because the Swiss network is much less congested, particularly compared with the Southeast.

If the train is there and you know it's your train (real time trains is usually accurate) then I would jump on. In my experience Waterloo is relaxed on this and not like Euston who don't like you hanging around on platforms unless the train is up on the board. In my own experience at Waterloo when the inbound coaches come in the service is displayed on the boards fairly quickly- I guess it's also a balance of waiting for people to get off and clear the platform first so there isn't a head on traffic jam of people.

You won't do that at Euston even if you know the platform because in general the doors are locked.

 

[43096]

Probably because the Swiss network is much less congested, particularly compared with the Southeast.

Ah, you mean they have the infrastructure to support the service and don’t fill every path with a 4-car unit on busy long distance routes.

I’d also add that the Zürich S-bahn core through Zürich Hbf’s low level platform is as intense as anything we run here, including the Thameslink core.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Probably because the Swiss network is much less congested, particularly compared with the Southeast.

But those times still exist, it's just a case of publishing them. It would not slow down or in any way change operations, just in most cases result in the public arrival time being displayed as about one minute (sometimes two) earlier.

You won't do that at Euston even if you know the platform because in general the doors are locked.

Only for Avanti services.

 

[norbitonflyer]

Also at some places inevitable if the stock is not physically there yet. Lots of suburban services do have marginal turnaround times and a little bit of late running can make the timings for boarding rather smalll. One option is to just board the train prior to it physically being there once a train is confirmed being routed in; however platforms can get very congested (especially as arrivals try to get off too) and some operators are wary of that.

Listing the platform just as the train is approaching it is worse, as instead of having the waiting passengers tidily distributed along the platform when the train arrives, they form a scrum at the barrier just as the passengers off the arriving train are trying to come through it the other way. I know Waterloo serves both Twickenham and Eton, but we don't want to replicate either a Rugby scrum or the Wall Game on the way home, thank you very much.

 

[Horizon22]

Listing the platform just as the train is approaching it is worse, as instead of having the waiting passengers tidily distributed along the platform when the train arrives, they form a scrum at the barrier just as the passengers off the arriving train are trying to come through it the other way. I know Waterloo serves both Twickenham and Eton, but we don't want to replicate either a Rugby scrum or the Wall Game on the way home, thank you very much.

I was merely replying to some who said they have to rush as it gets boarded. With a short turnaround (planned or otherwise), its one option or the other. You can't magic up time. As for approaching it depends in what time; 1-2 minutes is fine, but 20 seconds not so great. Depends when it is clear an arrival train will go into a set platform. What would be worse is boarding a train on its planned arrival/departure platform which is altered.

 

[FenMan]

Most GWR trains at my local station only arrive a few seconds before the advertised departure time ....

Most GWR trains at my local station only arrive a few minutes after the advertised departure time ....

 

[bahnause]

Probably because the Swiss network is much less congested, particularly compared with the Southeast.

I would disagree with that statement. The swiss network is heavily utilised with mixed traffic on almost all lines thanks to a high capacity infrastructure (signalling, flexibility, high automation). That is why reliability and some resilience is needed, distinguishing between the two different timetables plays a part in that.

 

[coppercapped]

But it simply doesn't make sense. Why does the UK have to insist on this illogical timetabling "logic" that doesn't serve the passengers expectation?

And why do you keep insisting on an offset which is proven to be unnecessary. Unaccompanied trains in Switzerland lock doors at :00, and will be moving by :15, it's a bit longer for accompanied trains - but there's simply no logical or sensible reason to add a 1 minute margin here. Just tell the passenger at what time they'll no longer be able to board.

Why do these margins matter? They don't, but it's stupid to publish a time that doesn't actually tell you when you need to be on the train by - and on some occasions it might save you from running to make a tight connection when you know you won't make it (easy to know if doors close at published time), vs having no idea (because you might still make it before published time, but some wizard decided to randomly close the doors earlier without even bothering to tell you the offset).

This is absolute rubbish - ever since I started using trains by myself in the mid-1950s the departure time has always been the time at which the wheels start to turn. In fact since the dawn of rail travel this has been the case - the clue is in the name: Departure Time. It was not, and still is not, difficult to work out that therefore one has to be on board at the latest few seconds before the train departs.

Why this argument about a few seconds implying that 'the railway' is trying to make life hard for the passenger by being confusing. Why do people insist on being spoon fed? Are they no longer capable of rational thought or is mental arithmetic too difficult?

 

[JamesT]

I would disagree with that statement. The swiss network is heavily utilised with mixed traffic on almost all lines thanks to a high capacity infrastructure (signalling, flexibility, high automation). That is why reliability and some resilience is needed, distinguishing between the two different timetables plays a part in that.

View attachment 104765

Do you have a source for that table? The Williams review has a similar table n page 22 of https://assets.publishing.service.g...t_data/file/787082/rail-sector-in-numbers.pdf
Has a similar table with the UK much closer.

However that’s an average across the whole UK including long lightly used lines in the far North of Scotland. It’s widely quoted that 70% of UK rail journeys start or end in London, the utilisation in the Southeast is going to be much higher than the UK average and likely the Swiss average.

 

[bahnause]

Source is the Statistical Office of the European Union. You can find the chart here.

 

[43096]

However that’s an average across the whole UK including long lightly used lines in the far North of Scotland. It’s widely quoted that 70% of UK rail journeys start or end in London, the utilisation in the Southeast is going to be much higher than the UK average and likely the Swiss average.

In which case, compare the south-east of the UK with the busiest part of Switzerland: probably around Zürich. It's not really a fair comparison to compare south-east UK with the whole of Switzerland.

 

[TPO]

If the train is there and you know it's your train (real time trains is usually accurate) then I would jump on. In my experience Waterloo is relaxed on this and not like Euston who don't like you hanging around on platforms unless the train is up on the board. In my own experience at Waterloo when the inbound coaches come in the service is displayed on the boards fairly quickly- I guess it's also a balance of waiting for people to get off and clear the platform first so there isn't a head on traffic jam of people.

Although in reality at Euston, Paddington, St Pancras and probably other London termini you will not be allowed to board until the train is "prepared" even if it is there and the correct one.

I remember the many times I traveled out of Paddington in the Before Times, even when the sets were all in on time it was not that unusual for GWR to be short on train preparers so the idea that "trains will be ready to start boarding 15 min before departure" (as they used to say in those days) was a bit of a rare occurrence. It was worst when there was a Bristol, a Penzance, an Oxford and a South Wales train all being prepared. Often the trains due to depart later would be ready soonest, and it was not usual at all for a South Wales train to be called no more than 5 minutes before departure (sometimes less on a really bad day). With the 2 coaches closest to the concourse being First, when the train was called it was often one heck of a scrum as people raced to get on- GWR were usually determined to leave right time too so there was good reason for the rush. That's why seasoned travelers would often congregate on the overbridge half-way down the platform, and strategically position by the barriers- as the Paddington barrier staff were also notoriously slow. Particularly in rush hour where there was also a fight for seats. Could have all been so much easier with sufficient train preparation staff available......

Even worse was when a previous service had been cancelled and the set was late incoming; on occasions like that GWR showed they are fundamentally a commuter line serving Reading/Didcot by not making Reading "set down only" so the long distance trains out of Paddington were jammed with passengers for Reading who wanted to save a few minutes on the "non stop" rather than getting a Reading stopper. Often to the detriment of longer distance passengers.

Thankfully I don't have to do that journey very often now and I can usually avoid peak times if I do.

TPO

 

[dingdinger]

Although in reality at Euston, Paddington, St Pancras and probably other London termini you will not be allowed to board until the train is "prepared" even if it is there and the correct one.

I was referring to Waterloo where you can jump on anytime. I imagine you can at Liverpool Street too?

 

[TPO]

I was referring to Waterloo where you can jump on anytime. I imagine you can at Liverpool Street too?

No idea, I've not traveled out of Liv Street (and only occasionally out of Kings Cross). Whereas I've traveled quite a bit out of Euston and St Pancras and a lot out of Pad.

TPO

 

[Wolfie]

But those times still exist, it's just a case of publishing them. It would not slow down or in any way change operations, just in most cases result in the public arrival time being displayed as about one minute (sometimes two) earlier.



Only for Avanti services.

Re your last sentence: try boarding a LNWR service early. If you are right l must have completely imagined standing on platform 11 on Saturday morning for 10 mins waiting for the doors of the 1146 to Crewe to be opened....

 

[Bletchleyite]

Re your last sentence: try boarding a LNWR service early. If you are right l must have completely imagined standing on platform 11 on Saturday morning for 10 mins waiting for the doors of the 1146 to Crewe to be opened....

I thought the OP was referring to the platform doors. Queueing by the actual train is less of an issue as it does not cause the Euston scrum, it is generally a civilised ish "queue" so people get seats in the order they arrived.

 

[Wolfie]

I thought the OP was referring to the platform doors. Queueing by the actual train is less of an issue as it does not cause the Euston scrum, it is generally a civilised ish "queue" so people get seats in the order they arrived.

Ah, ok, we were at cross purposes. I agree about the rush - it was bloody unfunny when l was on crutches.