GWR Class 165/166 Turbo Diagrams

[Jim]

166221 and 166214 are working a 1U88 1520 Exeter to London and 1Z94 1910 approx London to Exeter tonight.

 

[owidoe]

166211 and 166214 are working a 1U88 1520 Exeter to London and 1Z94 1910 approx London to Exeter tonight.

Vice an IET? Or does GWR seriously think these are acceptable intercity trains?

 

[Jim]

Vice an IET? Or does GWR seriously think these are acceptable intercity trains?

As an additional train due to heavy loadings towards London today. "Relief train" in old money! Not quite the same as the traction when they were a common thing mind!

 

[Melancholia]

Vice an IET? Or does GWR seriously think these are acceptable intercity trains?

Any train is better than no train

 

[HamworthyGoods]

Vice an IET? Or does GWR seriously think these are acceptable intercity trains?

It’s called running a relief service in the same way as British Rail has run things like pairs of 101 DMU’s on Leeds - King’s Cross reliefs before.

Nothing new in trying to use an available resource to target one off overcrowding!

 

[Dood75]

166221 and 166214 are working a 1U88 1520 Exeter to London and 1Z94 1910 approx London to Exeter tonight.

And RTT shows as only 7 down on arrival at Exeter

 

[Dai Corner]

And RTT shows as only 7 down on arrival at Exeter

Who signs both Turbos and Paddington - Exeter ?

 

[HamworthyGoods]

Who signs both Turbos and Paddington - Exeter ?

Exeter GWR Drivers (as opposed to HSS) and Exeter Train Managers.

 

[Ashley Hill]

It was a reasonably busy train out of London,just like a relief train of old. Full marks to GWR for old school railway thinking!

 

[RPI]

Who signs both Turbos and Paddington - Exeter ?

Every Exeter Train Manager and most drivers, most Bristol Train Managers.

I wonder if the 1st class was actually classified?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 20 Aug 2022 ==

Every Exeter Train Manager and most drivers, most Bristol Train Managers.

I wonder if the 1st class was actually classified?

Apologies to @HamworthyGoods, hadn't seen that you'd answered until I'd replied!

 

[43102EMR]

Every Exeter Train Manager and most drivers, most Bristol Train Managers.

I wonder if the 1st class was actually classified?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 20 Aug 2022 ==


Apologies to @HamworthyGoods, hadn't seen that you'd answered until I'd replied!

AFAIK first class was declassified.

 

[GWRrrr]

Today the six Exmouth-Paignton diagrams have three 2-car 150s, a 3-car 158, a 2-car 158 and one 166. You'd normally expect maybe three turbos and the other three as 2x2-car 150s. Looking at this over the past few weeks the situation seems to have been getting gradually worse, with more 2-car 150s and fewer turbos. Anybody know what's happening?

 

[Snow1964]

Todays 13:23 1F20 Portsmouth-Cardiff is being operated by 2car 158 instead due to lack of turbos. Having started right time, now 16 minutes late at Bath.

The number of short formations in Bristol area is getting stupid, GWR simply doesn’t have enough stock to operate its diagrams

 

[HamworthyGoods]

Todays 13:23 1F20 Portsmouth-Cardiff is being operated by 2car 158 instead due to lack of turbos. Having started right time, now 16 minutes late at Bath.

The number of short formations in Bristol area is getting stupid, GWR simply doesn’t have enough stock to operate its diagrams

Sadly there is no magic rolling stock tree!

 

[baza585]

Sadly there is no magic rolling stock tree!

But there is a number of 158/159 units at Salisbury that appear to be barely being used! As a regular on Pompey- Cardiff, it is so frustrating every time I pass them, crammed on a short formed GWR service.

I realize it isn't always GWRs fault but DfT could improve the situation at the stroke of a pen.

 

[HamworthyGoods]

But there is a number of 158/159 units at Salisbury that appear to be barely being used! As a regular on Pompey- Cardiff, it is so frustrating every time I pass them, crammed on a short formed GWR service.

I realize it isn't always GWRs fault but DfT could improve the situation at the stroke of a pen.

If you pass them during the day they are stabled between the peaks, the WoE still has reasonable levels of commuting required more sets AM and PM but are spare for several hours (but not enough to be useful) during the day.

 

[baza585]

If you pass them during the day they are stabled between the peaks, the WoE still has reasonable levels of commuting required more sets AM and PM but are spare for several hours (but not enough to be useful) during the day.

I understand that, some will be on peak only digrams, but unless I am wrong, SWR is running less WoE trains than preCovid, and I suspect some of the peak trains from Waterloo are less full than they used to be.

So there is surely a possible potential short term opportunity to help GWR out with loan units while they are suffering a shortage. All it needs is some joined up thinking by DfT.

Not to mention the 158s wasted on the Romsey rounders for which 150s would be so much more suitable!

 

[HamworthyGoods]

Not to mention the 158s wasted on the Romsey rounders for which 150s would be so much more suitable!

But there aren’t any 150s spare and no crew at Salisbury sign them. No money in the kitty to train crews on different units either…

It’s far from ideal but the railways are having to work under strict financial agreements at the moment.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 26 Aug 2022 ==

I understand that, some will be on peak only digrams, but unless I am wrong, SWR is running less WoE trains than preCovid, and I suspect some of the peak trains from Waterloo are less full than they used to be.

In the peaks it’s the same number of services at Waterloo, it’s only off-peak that services are trimmed back to Basingstoke. Coupled with increase in commuting at the Exeter end meaning more double sets running through to Exeter at contra peak times the booked peak utilisation of 15x for the agreed SWR/DfT timetable specification is the same as pre covid.

Don’t forget between Waterloo and Basingstoke there are less EMU services than previously so the DMU formations need to remain the same. It’s not easy to put on enhanced EMU services are 450s are having to cover for the lack of class 701s.

Whilst services to Bristol have been cut the set saved was withdrawn after the Salisbury accident.

Generally there is just a DMU shortage nationally.

 

[Benjwri]

Sadly there is no magic rolling stock tree!

It's an easy excuse to make, but the post wasn't blaming GWR. The lack of units at the end of the day is not any single body's fault, with a lack of thinking, money, and the 769 mess to blame, but someone has to take the fault and sort it out. It reduces confidence in the railways, and therefore passenger numbers.

I know I prefer to drive to start my rail journeys, because I simply cannot rely on the WoE train services to be running on time to allow me to catch my connection.

 

[baza585]

But there aren’t any 150s spare and no crew at Salisbury sign them. No money in the kitty to train crews on different units either…

It’s far from ideal but the railways are having to work under strict financial agreements at the moment.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 26 Aug 2022 ==



In the peaks it’s the same number of services at Waterloo, it’s only off-peak that services are trimmed back to Basingstoke. Coupled with increase in commuting at the Exeter end meaning more double sets running through to Exeter at contra peak times the booked peak utilisation of 15x for the agreed SWR/DfT timetable specification is the same as pre covid.

Don’t forget between Waterloo and Basingstoke there are less EMU services than previously so the DMU formations need to remain the same. It’s not easy to put on enhanced EMU services are 450s are having to cover for the lack of class 701s.

Whilst services to Bristol have been cut the set saved was withdrawn after the Salisbury accident.

Generally there is just a DMU shortage nationally.

Thanks for the full reply. I'd missed the impact of the 701 delays.

I accept it is a difficult situation, but can't disguise the feeling that there appears to be a lack of willingness to try to solve it.

It's good that GWR lent TfW a 158 recently, but at the same time, they were short forming their own services. Interesting they prioritized TfWs customers over their own.

Unless DfT forced them to.....

 

[CC 72100]

Thanks for the full reply. I'd missed the impact of the 701 delays.

I accept it is a difficult situation, but can't disguise the feeling that there appears to be a lack of willingness to try to solve it.

It's good that GWR lent TfW a 158 recently, but at the same time, they were short forming their own services. Interesting they prioritized TfWs customers over their own.

Unless DfT forced them to.....

That was a (driver) strike day. There were no GWR 158s diagrammed on that day.

 

[HamworthyGoods]

I accept it is a difficult situation, but can't disguise the feeling that there appears to be a lack of willingness to try to solve it.

Trust me I know many colleagues actively involved in the situation and it’s not there no willingness it’s just there’s no trains spare at the moment to solve it. Hopefully that will ease as more new fleets start to finally get accepted.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

Sadly there is no magic rolling stock tree!

The fact that the issue seemingly can’t be helped does not mean we shouldn’t be able to take issue with it, especially as GWR widely promoted how the cascade of Turbos to Bristol (and the Portsmouth services especially) would bring in lots more capacity, with most services 5 car.

 

[HamworthyGoods]

The fact that the issue seemingly can’t be helped does not mean we shouldn’t be able to take issue with it, especially as GWR widely promoted how the cascade of Turbos to Bristol (and the Portsmouth services especially) would bring in lots more capacity, with most services 5 car.

Taking issue is fine as the overcrowding isn’t desirable, saying there’s a lack of willingness to do anything about it with no substance behind that statement is a bit different.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

Taking issue is fine as the overcrowding isn’t desirable, saying there’s a lack of willingness to do anything about it with no substance behind that statement is a bit different.

Mmm, assuming that GWR aren’t allowed to order new stock or ask the DfT to let them, then yes.

 

[HamworthyGoods]

Mmm, assuming that GWR aren’t allowed to order new stock or ask the DfT to let them, then yes.

GWR are committed under the new direct award to a new fleet strategy for the west so not it’s not gone un-noticed, however that won’t happen overnight.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

GWR are committed under the new direct award to a new fleet strategy for the west so not it’s not gone un-noticed, however that won’t happen overnight.

That’s interesting; I didn’t know that. I’m looking forward to seeing how that goes.

 

[FGW_DID]

GWR simply doesn’t have enough stock to operate its diagrams

It has the stock, there's never more diagrams than there is stock. Said stock might not always be available for various reasons but there'll never be more diagrams than stock.

For Example

In LTV at Reading, there are 24 DMUs so there are 24 Reading DMU diagrams of which 20 diagrams (weekdays) have booked work.
There are 45 EMUs (GWR & HEX) = 45 diagrams of which 39 diagrams (weekdays) have booked work.

 

[Snow1964]

It has the stock, there's never more diagrams than there is stock. Said stock might not always be available for various reasons but there'll never be more diagrams than stock.

For Example

In LTV at Reading, there are 24 DMUs so there are 24 Reading DMU diagrams of which 20 diagrams (weekdays) have booked work.
There are 45 EMUs (GWR & HEX) = 45 diagrams of which 39 diagrams (weekdays) have booked work.

I apologise, used wrong terminology in diagrams, what I meant was GWR doesn’t have sufficient serviceable DMU stock allocated to operate all its services at booked length west of Didcot.

Unavailable stock is something that naturally grows as stock gets older and more parts wear out, unless increase speed of repairs, which doesn’t seem to be case at Bristol as they don’t seem to be able to get parts quick enough. The number of trains allocated doesn’t seem to allow for the slow repairs and awaiting parts, which is why I still think GWR has insufficient stock.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 27 Aug 2022 ==

GWR are committed under the new direct award to a new fleet strategy for the west so not it’s not gone un-noticed, however that won’t happen overnight.

Is this the new 36 months (with another 36 months extendable at DfT discretion) award which started 26th June 2022. I guess a 6 year award couldn’t leave the problem until at least 2028. This award was announced 10 months ago so hopefully well on the way to deciding what to do.

Is there a public version of the award that indicates what the commitment is, all I can find is the news release which refers to extra services from Bristol to Gloucester and Westbury which obviously will need stock to operate them.

National Rail Contract awarded to Great Western Railway | GWR News

The Department for Transport (DfT) has today awarded a National Rail Contract (NRC) to Great Western Railway (GWR) to continue operating the Great Western network.

news.gwr.com

 

[Xavi]

I guess a 6 year award couldn’t leave the problem until at least 2028.

When GWR publishes the draft west rolling stock policy and DfT approves (!), it ought to be possible to go ahead anytime since the operating contracts are cost-plus. I’m sure there will be many obstacles though!

My guess will be a mix of circa 135 3 and 4-car Hitachi AT200 all 25kv ac / 750v dc plus interchangeable diesel / battery pack. HMG want to keep Newton Aycliffe busy, and DfT will be all over the efficiencies of an all Hitachi GWR…. SWR West of England could follow suit taking the order to c 170.