GWR Class 165/166 Turbo Diagrams

[FGW_DID]

But with one unit away for refurb, and another at Doncaster, even a single unit being robbed can lead to short forms.

They simply don't have enough spare units to even rob parts from one, without causing short forms, or substitutions by inferior older trains

No, not quite . Its two away at refresh and 1 at Doncaster.
If we just look at the 166 fleet in isolation there are 21 units of which 16 are required for traffic. That gives you 5 units spare. Even with 3 away, that's two units left.
Not ideal as you still have to take into account routine exams & maintenance but not quite at the level you seem intent on repeating time & time!

What sort of fleet utilisation level would you like? 50% - one spare for every unit. 28% with only 6 in traffic and 15 sat on depot. I'm sure that would please the passengers as they pass on a packed out unit and see lots of units sat idle on depot "just in case".

 

[JohnRegular]

No, not quite . Its two away at refresh and 1 at Doncaster.
If we just look at the 166 fleet in isolation there are 21 units of which 16 are required for traffic. That gives you 5 units spare. Even with 3 away, that's two units left.
Not ideal as you still have to take into account routine exams & maintenance but not quite at the level you seem intent on repeating time & time!

What sort of fleet utilisation level would you like? 50% - one spare for every unit. 28% with only 6 in traffic and 15 sat on depot. I'm sure that would please the passengers as they pass on a packed out unit and see lots of units sat idle on depot "just in case".

At the end of the day, short forms and overcrowding are commonplace on the routes worked by turbos.

I am certain that no criticism is intended at any individuals in particular, and contributions from those in the industry is appreciated and give a valuable insight from those of us on the outside. But from the perspective of a regular passenger, they're regularly being packed in like sardines on short formed trains, and being told that the current arrangement is fine and appropriate doesn't quite cut the mustard.

It's a bit like reporting a pothole in the road to the council and being told that it's doesn't meet the criteria to be repaired - that's all well and good but it's definitely there and it would definitely throw me off my bike if I hit it at any speed.

 

[HamworthyGoods]

But with one unit away for refurb, and another at Doncaster, even a single unit being robbed can lead to short forms.

They simply don't have enough spare units to even rob parts from one, without causing short forms, or substitutions by inferior older trains

You are completely misunderstanding the reason why a unit ends up as a ‘Christmas Tree’ you make it sound like they are robbing parts out of laziness

You will have seen mentioned before parts for turbos are increasingly challenging to get, what happens when you make a ‘Christmas Tree’ is that unit surrenders parts to keep units in traffic rather than say have 3 units stopped all waiting parts.

I’m not quite sure what you are proposing instead? Would you sooner 3 units for example are stopped all awaiting parts or would you prefer only one unit to be stopped and parts yielded to keep others in traffic?

 

[FGW_DID]

At the end of the day, short forms and overcrowding are commonplace on the routes worked by turbos.

I am certain that no criticism is intended at any individuals in particular, and contributions from those in the industry is appreciated and give a valuable insight from those of us on the outside. But from the perspective of a regular passenger, they're regularly being packed in like sardines on short formed trains, and being told that the current arrangement is fine and appropriate doesn't quite cut the mustard.

It's a bit like reporting a pothole in the road to the council and being told that it's doesn't meet the criteria to be repaired - that's all well and good but it's definitely there and it would definitely throw me off my bike if I hit it at any speed.

What are you on about? Nobody’s saying the current arrangement is fine or appropriate but with unit serviceability the way it is, unfortunately it’s the harsh reality. No matter how many resources you have, if the failures outstrip the ‘spares’ you have to manage with what resources you can use.
I appreciate that as as passenger if your service should be 4 carriages then you would expect 4 to turn up but then a whole load of other passengers somewhere else goes without any train at all. You as a passenger probably doesn’t care about them, you’re on your train and have a seat.
The controllers can’t think like that, they have to juggle the finite resources they do have and try to do the best for everybody!

 

[Snow1964]

you have to manage with what resources you can use.

Finally you hit nail on the head, the disconnect between charging fairly high fares per mile in Wessex area (no advances for local services) then providing a barely adequate service.

That might be all they can manage, but if you provide a poor 1* service then customer is never going to be happy. It's not like they walk through crowded trains (not that they can get through crush loaded trains) and offer vouchers as an apology. It's the rail staff public attitude of we don't mind providing rubbish that annoys. In all my travels, never once heard a GWR guard use pa and apologise for short form. My last journey was delayed 25 minutes, again no pa reminder about delay repay, it's a we have your money, we don't care attitude to customers.

I was accused of not understanding the lack of resources, I do, it's the lack of change, and the fact the front line staff just seem resigned to it. Even the GWR webpage explaining is out of date (someone on here defended that being low priority, we don't care too)

 

[Jim]

See even here we can't agree what is good and not good for a 3 car 165 route wise.

A controller doesn't want to short form or cancel any train, but unless engineering can provide the right amount of trains (which they can't because of various issues and arguably no fault of their own!), then someone will always be unhappy and lose out.

Is spreading the pain more important, or making the right decision for overall?

Take 1F07 for an example discussed above, what's right? Cancelling Bath locals to fully form that? Short forming to run the Bath locals?
How many days in a row do you take which decision?

 

[JohnRegular]

What are you on about? Nobody’s saying the current arrangement is fine or appropriate but with unit serviceability the way it is, unfortunately it’s the harsh reality. No matter how many resources you have, if the failures outstrip the ‘spares’ you have to manage with what resources you can use.
I appreciate that as as passenger if your service should be 4 carriages then you would expect 4 to turn up but then a whole load of other passengers somewhere else goes without any train at all. You as a passenger probably doesn’t care about them, you’re on your train and have a seat.
The controllers can’t think like that, they have to juggle the finite resources they do have and try to do the best for everybody!

I would suggest we're all saying the same thing here - there aren't enough units!

In all my travels, never once heard a GWR guard use pa and apologise for short form.

I'm surprised that this has been your experience, as I have certainly had this happen quite a few times (short forms being quite common!). Far from unusual to have a guard apologise for a crowded train - although also not unusual to hear absolutely nothing or get standard announcements as if nothing is awry.

 

[Robin Procter]

Finally you hit nail on the head, the disconnect between charging fairly high fares per mile in Wessex area (no advances for local services) then providing a barely adequate service.

That might be all they can manage, but if you provide a poor 1* service then customer is never going to be happy. It's not like they walk through crowded trains (not that they can get through crush loaded trains) and offer vouchers as an apology. It's the rail staff public attitude of we don't mind providing rubbish that annoys. In all my travels, never once heard a GWR guard use pa and apologise for short form. My last journey was delayed 25 minutes, again no pa reminder about delay repay, it's a we have your money, we don't care attitude to customers.

.... Hmm, some GWR 165/166 Guards have a good attitude and are very friendly.

This one was recently at Westbury on 29th November and I think was 2V60 Weymouth-Gloucester. (I would love to know who she is so I could give her this picture).

 

[Rachellouise]

.... Hmm, some GWR 165/166 Guards have a good attitude and are very friendly.

This one was recently at Westbury on 29th November and I think was 2V60 Weymouth-Gloucester. (I would love to know who she is so I could give her this picture).

View attachment 148158

One of the guys I work with just sent me this, I am the lady in the photo. Thank you so much it is a lovely photo and I always try to smile at as many people as I can as you never know how someone’s day is going and a simple smile change your whole day. Thank you again x

 

[Siemens Staines]

It looks like 165129 has returned home to Bristol this morning

Realtime Trains | 5Z53 1135 Reading Traincare Depot to St Philips Mrsh H S T D | 10/12/2023

Real-time train running information for 5Z53 1135 departure from Reading Traincare Depot to St Philips Mrsh H S T D on 10/12/2023. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

.... Hmm, some GWR 165/166 Guards have a good attitude and are very friendly.

This one was recently at Westbury on 29th November and I think was 2V60 Weymouth-Gloucester. (I would love to know who she is so I could give her this picture).

View attachment 148158

One of the guys I work with just sent me this, I am the lady in the photo. Thank you so much it is a lovely photo and I always try to smile at as many people as I can as you never know how someone’s day is going and a simple smile change your whole day. Thank you again x

This is so wholesome. How wonderful that the guard was able to have the picture.
Thanks for the great service Rachellouise.

It looks like 165129 has returned home to Bristol this morning

Realtime Trains | 5Z53 1135 Reading Traincare Depot to St Philips Mrsh H S T D | 10/12/2023

Real-time train running information for 5Z53 1135 departure from Reading Traincare Depot to St Philips Mrsh H S T D on 10/12/2023. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

Definitely seems like Reading and SPM share a lot more than they did when 2-165s were first sent down. It seemed very rigidly two separate fleets back then.

 

[SJ21]

It looks like 165129 has returned home to Bristol this morning

But with 165112 going back to Reading

Realtime Trains | 5Z29 0851 St Philips Mrsh H S T D to Reading Traincare Depot | 10/12/2023

Real-time train running information for 5Z29 0851 departure from St Philips Mrsh H S T D to Reading Traincare Depot on 10/12/2023. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

 

[Robin Procter]

One of the guys I work with just sent me this, I am the lady in the photo. Thank you so much it is a lovely photo and I always try to smile at as many people as I can as you never know how someone’s day is going and a simple smile change your whole day. Thank you again x

.... Yay! Well I was already having a great day photographing trains at Westbury station and around that area but your smile made it even better and also always brings me great pleasure whenever I can gift one of my photos to someone who is in it. Please pass on my thanks to the guy you work with who has made this possible. I'll send you a private message via this forum with my email and ask for yours so I can send you a hi-res copy without my watermark.

This is so wholesome. How wonderful that the guard was able to have the picture.
Thanks for the great service Rachellouise.

.... It's a win-win and a great feeling to be able to do that.
Cheers! Robin

 

[Snow1964]

An oddity, late evening Cardiff-Frome is operating Bristol-Frome this week as 1Z37, although it is starting from Bristol, seems reversing at Bristol has been kept in schedule (presumably from the working it was copied from)

Realtime Trains | 1Z37 2225 Bristol Temple Meads to Frome | 18/12/2023

Real-time train running information for 1Z37 2225 departure from Bristol Temple Meads to Frome on 18/12/2023. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

Quite rare to see a 1Zxx booked as a 2car train

 

[FGW_DID]

An oddity, late evening Cardiff-Frome is operating Bristol-Frome this week as 1Z37, although it is starting from Bristol, seems reversing at Bristol has been kept in schedule (presumably from the working it was copied from)

Realtime Trains | 1Z37 2225 Bristol Temple Meads to Frome | 18/12/2023

Real-time train running information for 1Z37 2225 departure from Bristol Temple Meads to Frome on 18/12/2023. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

Quite rare to see a 1Zxx booked as a 2car train

The unit is diagrammed to arrive on 1F29 from Cardiff, which then splits and this 2 car then does quite a bit of to-ing & fro-ing around Bristol before working 1Z37 then it works ECS for its end of day at Westbury.

 

[Siemens Staines]

If the allocation to RTT is correct, then 165117 is on the Greenford branch today which is unusual territory for a 3-car turbo. But RTT also shows the centre car
missing from 165117 so it appears that it is currently formed as a 2-car unit.

Realtime Trains | 2G19 1030 Greenford to West Ealing | 30/12/2023

Real-time train running information for 2G19 1030 departure from Greenford to West Ealing on 30/12/2023. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

 

[SJ21]

If the allocation to RTT is correct, then 165117 is on the Greenford branch today which is unusual territory for a 3-car turbo. But RTT also shows the centre car
missing from 165117 so it appears that it is currently formed as a 2-car unit.

Looking at recent pictures, it does appear 117 is only a two car at the moment, missing it centre car:

DSC_8406_165117_Radley_2m32_221223

Reduced 3-car 165117 pauses at Radley with 2M32 1235 Didcot Parkway to Banbury, 22/12/23. Quite impressed that RTT mimic was showing a 2-car unit.

www.flickr.com

 

[800301]

If the allocation to RTT is correct, then 165117 is on the Greenford branch today which is unusual territory for a 3-car turbo. But RTT also shows the centre car
missing from 165117 so it appears that it is currently formed as a 2-car unit.

Realtime Trains | 2G19 1030 Greenford to West Ealing | 30/12/2023

Real-time train running information for 2G19 1030 departure from Greenford to West Ealing on 30/12/2023. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

It is a 2 car at the moment, had it last week, a 3 car doesn’t fit along the Greenford Branch

 

[FGW_DID]

165117 needed a couple of new wheelsets, as they all happened to be on the centre vehicle, the decision was made to chop it out and run as a temporary 2 car.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

165117 needed a couple of new wheelsets, as they all happened to be on the centre vehicle, the decision was made to chop it out and run as a temporary 2 car.

We love a bit of resourcefulness Definitely a good idea.

 

[RPI]

The obvious thing to do with 3 car 165's is to add a bike space, same as on The 2 cars!

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

The obvious thing to do with 3 car 165's is to add a bike space, same as on The 2 cars!

At the non FC end.

 

[Snow1964]

Very weird one today 2F14 Bristol-Warminster stopping service is cancelled and apparently replaced by a slower train (what has GWR got that is slower ?), not that I can find anything replacing it.

Realtime Trains | 2F14 1545 Bristol Temple Meads to Warminster | 02/01/2024

Real-time train running information for 2F14 1545 departure from Bristol Temple Meads to Warminster on 02/01/2024. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

2D92 Warminster-Bristol cancelled for same reason

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

Very weird one today 2F14 Bristol-Warminster stopping service is cancelled and apparently replaced by a slower train (what has GWR got that is slower ?), not that I can find anything replacing it.

Realtime Trains | 2F14 1545 Bristol Temple Meads to Warminster | 02/01/2024

Real-time train running information for 2F14 1545 departure from Bristol Temple Meads to Warminster on 02/01/2024. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

2D92 Warminster-Bristol cancelled for same reason

The RTT reasons aren’t often correct. The other day I saw “cancelled due to excessively hot weather”

 

[Anonymous10]

Very weird one today 2F14 Bristol-Warminster stopping service is cancelled and apparently replaced by a slower train (what has GWR got that is slower ?), not that I can find anything replacing it.

Realtime Trains | 2F14 1545 Bristol Temple Meads to Warminster | 02/01/2024

Real-time train running information for 2F14 1545 departure from Bristol Temple Meads to Warminster on 02/01/2024. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

2D92 Warminster-Bristol cancelled for same reason

Likely disruption. The west has been severely impacted by the storm with many trains cancelled. I am currently making my way back from Cornwall to pembrokeshire.

 

[RPI]

At the non FC end.

Don't really care which end, they just need bike spaces adding!

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

Don't really care which end, they just need bike spaces adding!

As someone who travels for 3.5 hours on them every month and knows the journey would be hellish in the thin, tableless, armrest-less 3+2 seating, I definitely care which end.

 

[cactustwirly]

As someone who travels for 3.5 hours on them every month and knows the journey would be hellish in the thin, tableless, armrest-less 3+2 seating, I definitely care which end.

That's 166s right, it doesn't matter which end

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

That's 166s right, it doesn't matter which end

Here you go

The obvious thing to do with 3 car 165's is to add a bike space, same as on The 2 cars!

At the non FC end.

 

[Towers]

As someone who travels for 3.5 hours on them every month and knows the journey would be hellish in the thin, tableless, armrest-less 3+2 seating, I definitely care which end.

It would, however, make far more sense to lose far fewer seats by putting any such installation at the former First end than by installing it at the other end.