GWR Class 165s ticket inspectors

[SouthEastBuses]

*Mod note: Please move to correct thread if required*

Everytime I ride a class 165 operated by GWR, I have noticed that when departing stations, ticket inspectors are always in the rear cab.

Is there a reason for this?

 

[skyhigh]

Are they ticket inspectors, or are they guards? If they're guards, where are the door controls?

 

[SouthEastBuses]

Are they ticket inspectors, or are they guards? If they're guards, where are the door controls?

Ticket inspectors. They are the same people that check tickets onboard the train.

Also, I thought the doors are opened/closed by the driver?

 

[skyhigh]

Ticket inspectors. They are the same people that check tickets onboard the train.

Guards also check tickets.

Also, I thought the doors are opened/closed by the driver?

As far as I'm aware on GWR it depends on the route. If the train is guard dispatched and the door controls are in the back cab (or local instructions state those controls are the ones that should be used) then that would explain why they're always in the back cab departing stations.

 

[SouthEastBuses]

Guards also check tickets.

As far as I'm aware on GWR it depends on the route. If the train is guard dispatched and the door controls are in the back cab (or local instructions state those controls are the ones that should be used) then that would explain why they're always in the back cab departing stations.

The line in question is the North Downs Line: Gatwick Airport - Reading via Redhill and Guildford, which appears to use the system that I highlighted in bold

 

[Snow1964]

Ticket inspectors. They are the same people that check tickets onboard the train.

Also, I thought the doors are opened/closed by the driver?

They are guards that also do ticket inspections

But there are oddities
eg at Avoncliffe there is notice that drivers must not (it is in capitals and red on the notice) release doors, guard must release front door only, so they walk to front.
At Bradford-on-Avon there are platform plungers for guard to request level crossing closure (one of them is by cab door, but some guards travel from Avoncliffe at front, rather than walking through train to the back (even on single units), the other plunger is about car 3/4, so a guard in back of a 5 car unit has to walk forward

 

[Watershed]

*Mod note: Please move to correct thread if required*

Everytime I ride a class 165 operated by GWR, I have noticed that when departing stations, ticket inspectors are always in the rear cab.

Is there a reason for this?

165s have various methods of operation across the GWR network. On the North Downs line they are still guard operated (which includes operating the doors); generally, guards tend to do this from the back cab.

It's different on other lines such as the Henley branch, where you may find that there's a Ticket Examiner or RPI.

 

[yorkie]

Everytime I ride a class 165 operated by GWR, I have noticed that when departing stations, ticket inspectors are always in the rear cab.

Is there a reason for this?

I think the answer is because the people you've seen are Guards.

Tickets can be inspected by staff who carry out a variety of roles, such as Guard and many others including Revenue Protection Officers/Inspectors (and, on driver only operated trains, On Board Managers/Supervisors, Travelling Ticket Inspectors etc who generally will stay with the same train in a similar way to a Guard, but are not Guards)

Also not all Guards check tickets, but on this route they do. Those that do can have a variety of job titles (such as Senior Conductor, Train Manager, Commercial Guard, etc...) depending on the company and/or route.

 

[DelW]

In my experience (typically a couple of times a month at varying times of day), ticket checks are rare on the North Downs, although some guards do carry them out. The last one I can recall was several months ago, so I've probably done at least half a dozen trips without a check. I'm usually travelling from Guildford to/from Reading or Guildford to/from Redhill or Gatwick, so it's not as if there's no opportunity.

In pre-Covid days checks were more common, but guards retreated into the back cabs in 2020 and most of them don't seem to have reappeared.

 

[Towers]

The 165/166s when on non-DOO routes are operated as driver open/guard close. Guards can close the doors either from the rear cab (or a middle cab if working sets in multiple, which happens in the 'west' but not on the Reading routes), or from one of two sets of saloon door controls in each unit, located at the first and last sets of doors (closest to either cab). The saloon controls were added when the fleet began cascading to the west, to enable the guard to open a single set of doors at stations with short platforms; this cannot be done by the driver from the cab.

Prior to fitment of these panels, Turbos with guards were worked as 'ten bells', whereby the driver would open and the guard would then use the buzzer to instruct the driver to close, which was always from the rear cab. Hence, some guards still tend to stick to this rather than using the saloon panels. Not an excuse to abandon ticket checks, though!

 

[Jamiescott1]

The people who don't want to buy a ticket always sit at the front of the train on the marlow branch knowing the guard starts at the rear and may not get to the front of the train

 

[AlastairFraser]

The people who don't want to buy a ticket always sit at the front of the train on the marlow branch knowing the guard starts at the rear and may not get to the front of the train

I understood what you meant, but it's important to note that the Marlow Branch is Driver Only Operated. So it's a Ticket Examiner/Revenue Protection of some sort, rather than a guard. They don't deal with any safety based duties.

 

[Jamiescott1]

I understood what you meant, but it's important to note that the Marlow Branch is Driver Only Operated. So it's a Ticket Examiner/Revenue Protection of some sort, rather than a guard. They don't deal with any safety based duties.

I thought it needed to be a guard to assist with the points operation at bourne end?

 

[74A]

Marlow branch is DOO between Maidenhead and Bourne End. A guard is required for Bourne End to Marlow.

So the person on board will have been a guard.

 

[AlastairFraser]

Marlow branch is DOO between Maidenhead and Bourne End. A guard is required for Bourne End to Marlow.

So the person on board will have been a guard.

I am corrected. So a Ticket Examiner could be used, but only if it terminated at Bourne End? I bet GWR love staffing a train crew depot for one of the Thames Valley branches

 

[Towers]

I am corrected. So a Ticket Examiner could be used, but only if it terminated at Bourne End? I bet GWR love staffing a train crew depot for one of the Thames Valley branches

Ticket Examiners frequently work trains alongside the guard, they aren't used exclusively on DOO services. So it's entirely possible!

 

[Watershed]

I am corrected. So a Ticket Examiner could be used, but only if it terminated at Bourne End? I bet GWR love staffing a train crew depot for one of the Thames Valley branches

That's correct, and I understand that's what happens during peak hours where you have separate Bourne End-Marlow and Bourne End-Maidenhead shuttles to allow the frequency to be increased.

 

[craigybagel]

I am corrected. So a Ticket Examiner could be used, but only if it terminated at Bourne End? I bet GWR love staffing a train crew depot for one of the Thames Valley branches

Bear in mind the guards depot at Reading doesn't exist solely for the Marlow branch. All Basingstoke and Gatwick services from Reading also require a guard.

 

[Watershed]

Bear in mind the guards depot at Reading doesn't exist solely for the Marlow branch. All Basingstoke and Gatwick services from Reading also require a guard.

There are both GWR Conductors and Train Managers based at Reading. The conductors only sign to Basingstoke, Gatwick and Maidenhead-Marlow, but the TMs additionally sign 80x and Paddington to Bedwyn, Bristol, Cheltenham and Hereford.

 

[contrex]

eg at Avoncliffe there is notice that drivers must not (it is in capitals and red on the notice) release doors, guard must release front door only, so they walk to front.
At Bradford-on-Avon there are platform plungers for guard to request level crossing closure (one of them is by cab door, but some guards travel from Avoncliffe at front, rather than walking through train to the back (even on single units), the other plunger is about car 3/4, so a guard in back of a 5 car unit has to walk forward

A local pedant writes: 'no 'e' in Avoncliff'.

 

[JN114]

Marlow branch is DOO between Maidenhead and Bourne End. A guard is required for Bourne End to Marlow.

So the person on board will have been a guard.

It’s a little more nuanced than that - in lay terms:

The branch can take up to two trains on it at any one time.

The first of those to enter the branch must have a guard; regardless of destination or whether passenger / ECS.

If there is a train, already locked in on the branch with a guard, a second train can then enter DOO.

The guard on the branch operates the points/“signals” at Bourne End in cooperation with the signaller to keep those trains safely apart.

The guard is also required to dispatch any train at Marlow. Maidenhead, Furze Platt, Cookham and Bourne End are DOO for “door duties”, whether a guard is onboard or not.

 

[Towers]

It’s a little more nuanced than that - in lay terms:

The branch can take up to two trains on it at any one time.

The first of those to enter the branch must have a guard; regardless of destination or whether passenger / ECS.

If there is a train, already locked in on the branch with a guard, a second train can then enter DOO.

The guard on the branch operates the points/“signals” at Bourne End in cooperation with the signaller to keep those trains safely apart.

The guard is also required to dispatch any train at Marlow. Maidenhead, Furze Platt, Cookham and Bourne End are DOO for “door duties”, whether a guard is onboard or not.

The guard also closes the doors and dispatches 'their' train from Bourne End, of course.

 

[AlastairFraser]

Bear in mind the guards depot at Reading doesn't exist solely for the Marlow branch. All Basingstoke and Gatwick services from Reading also require a guard.

See I'm surprised about Basingstoke, given the functional similarity to many of the other DOO Thames Valley branches.
Must be a historical quirk.

 

[Wychwood93]

See I'm surprised about Basingstoke, given the functional similarity to many of the other DOO Thames Valley branches.
Must be a historical quirk.

Perhaps it is - in my experience the guard usually comes through the train. Reading and Basingstoke are gated whilst the other stops are not. Harking back to the days of the 3-car Hampshire units - RPIs (or whatever they were called then!) used to do one coach from Basingstoke to Bramley, another for Bramley/Mortimer and then the last one for Mortimer/Reading West. Fun to watch and, for those trying to avoid paying, a gamble, which coach would they start from?

 

[warwickshire]

Bear in mind the guards depot at Reading doesn't exist solely for the Marlow branch. All Basingstoke and Gatwick services from Reading also require a guard.

Also the Moreton on Marsh cotswold evening service for now. Due to be replaced by a class 800 IET very soon.

 

[Towers]

Also the Moreton on Marsh cotswold evening service for now. Due to be replaced by a class 800 IET very soon.

That service, as with everything over the Cotswolds, will still be guard operated regardless of traction.

 

[74A]

See I'm surprised about Basingstoke, given the functional similarity to many of the other DOO Thames Valley branches.
Must be a historical quirk.

DOO systems used to require cab secure radio. This system allowed the signaller to communicate directly with the driver and also could send out an alarm if a driver got incapacitated.

The NRN which was the cab communication used elsewhere could not do this. Reading to Basingstoke did not have cab secure radio so could not be DOO.

If BR had continued I have no doubt they would have made the route DOO. But with privatisation things just froze because there was no incentive for the railway companies to do it.

One of the many "benefits" of privatisation.

 

[AlastairFraser]

DOO systems used to require cab secure radio. This system allowed the signaller to communicate directly with the driver and also could send out an alarm if a driver got incapacitated.

The NRN which was the cab communication used elsewhere could not do this. Reading to Basingstoke did not have cab secure radio so could not be DOO.

If BR had continued I have no doubt they would have made the route DOO. But with privatisation things just froze because there was no incentive for the railway companies to do it.

One of the many "benefits" of privatisation.

Oh OK. So it is a historical quirk. Thanks for explaining. I'm assuming that with GSM-R rolled out, that requirement no longer applies.

Perhaps it is - in my experience the guard usually comes through the train. Reading and Basingstoke are gated whilst the other stops are not. Harking back to the days of the 3-car Hampshire units - RPIs (or whatever they were called then!) used to do one coach from Basingstoke to Bramley, another for Bramley/Mortimer and then the last one for Mortimer/Reading West. Fun to watch and, for those trying to avoid paying, a gamble, which coach would they start from?

Yeah, I've done the journey many times on the stopper too and I remember guards coming through, not necessarily to check tickets but rather to look after and advise passengers for the many onward connections at either end.
Reading West is well known as a fare evasion hotspot because it's a quick ride out of Reading (I know we both probably know this, this is for the benefit of other forum members) and because it's cheaper to grab a ticket here off a Newbury service and doughnut that way to get out of Reading station. Also because it's on the Oxycodone Road and thus is a favoured destination of dealers and other nefarious types from all over

 

[Towers]

Oh OK. So it is a historical quirk. Thanks for explaining. I'm assuming that with GSM-R rolled out, that requirement no longer applies.


Yeah, I've done the journey many times on the stopper too and I remember guards coming through, not necessarily to check tickets but rather to look after and advise passengers for the many onward connections at either end.
Reading West is well known as a fare evasion hotspot because it's a quick ride out of Reading (I know we both probably know this, this is for the benefit of other forum members) and because it's cheaper to grab a ticket here off a Newbury service and doughnut that way to get out of Reading station. Also because it's on the Oxycodone Road and thus is a favoured destination of dealers and other nefarious types from all over

Soon to be gated!

 

[Kite159]

Soon to be gated!

Which won't necessarily stop all fare evasion as the number of e-tickets being sold from Reading to Reading West will suddenly sky rocket by those who know it will work the gates without thinking they are leaving a trail of evidence of tickets which won't have entry scans