GWR Class 230 Information, Movements & Discussion.

[Tony2]

This is why I am strongly convinced that Scotrail should be trialing a 25kV + battery train on the Glasgow Queen St - Anniesland shuttle. Apart from releasing 90mph 158s for more suitable work it provides a nice short but varied testbed. The unit departs Glasgow Queen st up the steep Cowlairs incline, then switches to batteries for the 4 or so miles round to Anniesland. I am going to assume the shuttle uses the bay platform which probably isn't wired, but the unit changes ends and runs back to Cowlairs on batteries, then pan up on the main for the descent into Queen St with regen braking pumping back into the batteries.

What is not to like ?

This very route was specifically mentioned by Vivarail several times as suitable in 2018, but nothing has transpired in 6 years.

 

[D365]

This very route was specifically mentioned by Vivarail several times as suitable in 2018, but nothing has transpired in 6 years.

Vivarail did a lot of work to assess potential use cases for ”fast charge” battery trains. Obviously it’s been slow progress since those initial studies.

 

[Peter Sarf]

Regarding the Glasgow Queen St - Anniesland shuttle

This very route was specifically mentioned by Vivarail several times as suitable in 2018, but nothing has transpired in 6 years.

+

Vivarail did a lot of work to assess potential use cases for ”fast charge” battery trains. Obviously it’s been slow progress since those initial studies.

Would it be the case that for trials only one route would be chosen and West Ealing to/from Greenford won that honour ?.

Of course, once GWR bought the remains of Vivarail the trial was always likely to be Greenford. Perhaps the Greenford trial was the reason GWR bought Vivarail (I cannot remember the dates) but I suspect the possibilities for the other Thames branches is what swung it.

 

[sansyy]

Don't forget we're not talking about traction current here: the battery banks are trickle charged so don't need a huge power supply (which is the beauty of it). The battery banks at West Ealing are on a 3-phase/415V 63A supply, fed from the same secondary substation that also supplies the single phase 230V supply to all the local houses.

That's very true actually so this means it would be very suitable for the line, especially since the Diesel engines is what causes all the problems

 

[reddragon]

Yes, a similar Depth of Discharge (or possibly even 30-80%) will also be applicable to railway vehicles in order to maximise lifecycles.

A lot depends on the batteries chosen.

Older Lithium Ion batteries are ideally kept between 20-80% with 1500-5000 cycles, better still 30-70% whereas LFP batteries used in buses and standard range EVs it's 10-90% and 5000-10000 cycles. Both suffer in the cold.

We are now seeing sodium ion & other simpler chemistries that are not affected by the cold & can be used 0-100%.

All batteries have a buffer so 0-100% is really 5-95% anyway.

 

[Dan G]

I think the battery 230 uses lithium titanate batteries which enable extremely rapid charge and a very high number of charge cycles without capacity loss. I expect @Woods would know though it might be proprietary information.

 

[reddragon]

Chemistry[edit]​

A lithium-titanate battery is a modified lithium-ion battery that uses lithium-titanate nanocrystals, instead of carbon, on the surface of its anode. This gives the anode a surface area of about 100 square meters per gram, compared with 3 square meters per gram for carbon, allowing electrons to enter and leave the anode quickly. Also, the redox potential of Li+ intercalation into titanium oxides is more positive than that of Li+ intercalation into graphite. This leads to fast charging (higher charging current) being much safer in the case of the titanate, than in the case of carbon, since lithium dendrites are less likely to form in the former case.[11] Lithium-titanate cells last for 3000 to 7000 charge cycles;[12] a life cycle of ~1000 cycles before reaching 80% capacity is possible when charged and discharged at 55 °C (131 °F), rather than the standard 25 °C (77 °F).[13]

A disadvantage of lithium-titanate batteries is their lower inherent voltage (2.4 V), which leads to a lower specific energy (about 30–110 Wh/kg[1]) than conventional lithium-ion battery technologies, which have an inherent voltage of 3.7 V.[14] Some lithium-titanate batteries, however, have an volumetric energy density of up to 177 Wh/L.[1]

Lithium-titanate battery - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

​

Looks to be an ideal chemistry. The lower density isn't an issue with trains.

 

[stuving]

I think the battery 230 uses lithium titanate batteries which enable extremely rapid charge and a very high number of charge cycles without capacity loss. I expect @Woods would know though it might be proprietary information.

This is confusing.

Vivarail started using the batteries from the IPEMU trial, which were from Valence and described by them as Litihum Iron Phosphate (LFP). Some technical press reports make that Lithium Iron Magnesium Phosphate (LFMP). However, these use essentially Li-ion cells with a different cathode: LFP instead of NMC (Nickel Manganese Cobalt). A lot of effort goes into tweaking lithium-ion cell cathodes, in composition, microstructure, layering, etc., to optimise performance. Adding a little bit of magnesium does not necessarily call for a name change.

Lithium Werks bought Valence in 2018 and then sold their modules business to Lithion in 2019; that included this Valence product line. Their batteries may have still been in the US demonstrator, to judge by news releases, after 2020.

For the UK trial Vivarail linked up with Hoppecke in 2019, who mainly make lead-acid batteries but also do other kinds. They talk about the ones for Vivarail being Lithium-ion; I don't have a type number for those. They list some packaged modules as lithium-ion, but using lithium iron phosphate chemistry. As noted above, this need not be a contradiction, it's more a matter of how broad or narrow the battery type naming is.

Lithium titanate batteries were assessed for the IPEMU, but only in bench tests - they did not find a supplier for packaged batteries to fit in the train (in 2013). The conclusion was:

To sum up, Lithium Titanate technology has provisionally demonstrated the capability to power a passenger train, subject to system integration. The characteristics of the chemistry make it well suited to transport applications.

But there are a lot of promising battery chemistries being developed, which takes a long time, and this one may not win the race to be put into service in trains.

 

[Elecman]

The battery banks at West Ealing are on a 3-phase/415V 63A supply, fed from the same secondary substation that also supplies the single phase 230V supply to all the local houses.

Far more likely to be a 55kVA 400 volt 80 Amp 3 phase DNO supply, as DNOs don’t tend to offer 60(3) amp fuses (41KVA) supplies, but the project may then have fused it down to 63 amp downstream

 

[Woods]

I think the battery 230 uses lithium titanate batteries which enable extremely rapid charge and a very high number of charge cycles without capacity loss. I expect @Woods would know though it might be proprietary information.

230001's batteries from Hoppecke are Lithium Ion Phosphate (LFP), one of the most stable battery chemistries.

Far more likely to be a 55kVA 400 volt 80 Amp 3 phase DNO supply, as DNOs don’t tend to offer 60(3) amp fuses (41KVA) supplies, but the project may then have fused it down to 63 amp downstream

No it's definitely 415V 63A 3-phase supply to the trackside battery banks.

Perhaps the Greenford trial was the reason GWR bought Vivarail (I cannot remember the dates) but I suspect the possibilities for the other Thames branches is what swung it.

That's pretty much it. When Vivarail went into administration, GWR was a customer. DfT wanted the Greenford trial to carry on, such is the importance they placed on it for trialling the technology, so DfT funded GWR to buy the assets and take on the people in February 2023 to carry on the work. I'm sure they had the other GWR branches in mind as well, which is why they also purchased the remaining stock of D78 cars and, slightly later on, the 3 ex-WMT 230s.

Maybe I've lost track but I thought we were talking about the impact of disruption when, say, a timetabled 10 minute dwell time might come down to a minute or so.

If the system can charge a train in the time it takes the crew to change ends and set up the cab for the next journey then there shouldn't be an issue. But I assumed that wasn't the case.

Shorter than planned dwells (for charging) is definitely something that has to be taken into consideration. The batteries on the train have to have sufficient reserve to allow for this eventuality (for example 230001 could in theory do something like 7 or 8 round trips on the Greenford branch with the Fast Charger at West Ealing not working, before it becomes an issue), but operators are also going to have to build up knowledge, experience and operating rules for how to manage such situations, for example a 2min charging dwell instead of a planned 5min charging dwell at peak time in order to make up lost time may have to be compensated by a longer charging dwell at a less busy time (as an example). The precise 'recovery strategy' will be different for different routes but the point is that this is somewhat uncharted territory for operators who are used to operating with the 'unlimited range' available from OLE or the very long range of a diesel train.

Vivarail did a lot of work to assess potential use cases for ”fast charge” battery trains. Obviously it’s been slow progress since those initial studies.

Vivarail was banging the drum for the potential of Fast Charge on many routes but I think they were hamstrung by never having demonstrated it in a 'real life' environment. The Greenford trial finally achieves that aim, but sadly too late for Vivarail, whose cash ran out in November 2022, hence the administration. Had the company been able to cling on for another 18-24 months to see the Greenford trial come to fruition, investors might have been tempted to recapitalise the company. Alas, we will never know.

 

[Brissle Girl]

Thank you @Woods, your insight is very much appreciated.

I’m sure many of us are hoping that the trial is a great success, and that it is followed by a wider roll out.

 

[Woods]

Thank you @Woods, your insight is very much appreciated.

I’m sure many of us are hoping that the trial is a great success, and that it is followed by a wider roll out.

Like!

 

[Dan G]

This is confusing.

Vivarail started using the batteries from the IPEMU trial, which were from Valence and described by them as Litihum Iron Phosphate (LFP). Some technical press reports make that Lithium Iron Magnesium Phosphate (LFMP). However, these use essentially Li-ion cells with a different cathode: LFP instead of NMC (Nickel Manganese Cobalt). A lot of effort goes into tweaking lithium-ion cell cathodes, in composition, microstructure, layering, etc., to optimise performance. Adding a little bit of magnesium does not necessarily call for a name change.

Lithium Werks bought Valence in 2018 and then sold their modules business to Lithion in 2019; that included this Valence product line. Their batteries may have still been in the US demonstrator, to judge by news releases, after 2020.

For the UK trial Vivarail linked up with Hoppecke in 2019, who mainly make lead-acid batteries but also do other kinds. They talk about the ones for Vivarail being Lithium-ion; I don't have a type number for those. They list some packaged modules as lithium-ion, but using lithium iron phosphate chemistry. As noted above, this need not be a contradiction, it's more a matter of how broad or narrow the battery type naming is.

Lithium titanate batteries were assessed for the IPEMU, but only in bench tests - they did not find a supplier for packaged batteries to fit in the train (in 2013). The conclusion was:

But there are a lot of promising battery chemistries being developed, which takes a long time, and this one may not win the race to be put into service in trains.

Sorry for introducing any confusion and thank you for an interesting post.

I'm guessing the Greenford fast charging will be more like rapid charging an EV rather than taking a battery from 20% to 80% in a few minutes, which is what lithium titanate (used in the Class 93) is supposedly capable of

 

[45669]

Does anybody know when these test runs are likely to begin?

 

[FGW_DID]

Does anybody know when these test runs are likely to begin?

Back end of this week.

 

[45669]

Back end of this week.

So quite soon then. No doubt it will be reported in this forum for the benefit of those of that don't live over that way.

 

[TurboMan]

Does anybody know when these test runs are likely to begin?

The unit moves from Reading TCD to West Ealing LMD on Tuesday 27th (5Q23), then it spends a few hours (from about 1000 to 1500) in the bay platform at West Ealing on Thursday for testing the train to battery banks comms, then on Friday 1st, there are a few runs up and down the branch for PTI testing.

The battery banks aren't live yet, so all the above will be done via trickle charging overnight at West Ealing LMD.

 

[45669]

The unit moves from Reading TCD to West Ealing LMD on Tuesday 27th (5Q23), then it spends a few hours (from about 1000 to 1500) in the bay platform at West Ealing on Thursday for testing the train to battery banks comms, then on Friday 1st, there are a few runs up and down the branch for PTI testing.

The battery banks aren't live yet, so all the above will be done via trickle charging overnight at West Ealing LMD.

Thanks; I'll be following this with interest.

 

[FGW_DID]

27/02/2024 5Q23 1214 Reading TCD - West Ealing LMD.

Realtime Trains | 5Q23 1214 Reading Traincare Depot to West Ealing Emu Sidings | 27/02/2024

Real-time train running information for 5Q23 1214 departure from Reading Traincare Depot to West Ealing Emu Sidings on 27/02/2024. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

 

[45669]

27/02/2024 5Q23 1214 Reading TCD - West Ealing LMD.

Realtime Trains | 5Q23 1214 Reading Traincare Depot to West Ealing Emu Sidings | 27/02/2024

Real-time train running information for 5Q23 1214 departure from Reading Traincare Depot to West Ealing Emu Sidings on 27/02/2024. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

Hopefully there'll be a few folks out with their cameras...

 

[RichardAsh1981]

Far more likely to be a 55kVA 400 volt 80 Amp 3 phase DNO supply, as DNOs don’t tend to offer 60(3) amp fuses (41KVA) supplies, but the project may then have fused it down to 63 amp downstream

I imagine the supply to the trackside containers is 63A per phase because that is a standard size of CEEform (IEC 60309) connector, allowing the containers to be plugged in on site rather than having to hard-wire. There is a 125A/phase CEEform but it's rare and troublesome, and 125A sockets are uncommon (because DNO supplies of more than 100A per phase are rare). A remarkable number of places turn out to have 63A/3 sockets available, either for entertainment lighting or for large-scale electric cooking, as well as workshop machinery. So a fast-charge module which plugs in to 63A/3 is a pretty good choice if you want to use the same fast-charge design again in the future.

 

[Brissle Girl]

The 230 appears to have made it successfully to West Ealing sidings on time - fortunately the disruption yesterday was cleared overnight, else I am sure it would have been cancelled.

 

[3973EXL]

5Q23 Maidenhead

 

[45669]

5Q23 Maidenhead
View attachment 153287View attachment 153288

Thanks for the snaps. A common sight in the future, perhaps.

As a matter of interest, does anybody know why the code for Rail Adventure is SO? I would have expected it to be RA.

 

[TurboMan]

Thanks for the snaps. A common sight in the future, perhaps.

As a matter of interest, does anybody know why the code for Rail Adventure is SO? I would have expected it to be RA.

Presumably SO is for SLC Operations, who were bought out by Rail Adventure.

 

[45669]

Presumably SO is for SLC Operations, who were bought out by Rail Adventure.

Aha; don't life get complicated!

 

[Elecman]

(because DNO supplies of more than 100A per phase are rare).

LV DNO supplied are available in any size you want upto 600 Amps at Low Voltage ( but normally limited to 400 Amps/Phase but whole current metered supplies are now limited to 80 Amps/ phase and anything bigger than 80 Amps ie 100-600 amps/ phase are all current transformer metering.above 600 Amps you are really into the supplied being derived via local HV networks via a suitable transformer.

 

[sansyy]

Probably a really obvious and silly question but why do the ECS runs have the TOC Rail adventure and not GWR

 

[TheLastMinute]

Probably a really obvious and silly question but why do the ECS runs have the TOC Rail adventure and not GWR

Simply because GWR don't have any passed train crew for them nor union acceptance, so much easier to contract another company to operate the train.

 

[Horizon22]

The unit moves from Reading TCD to West Ealing LMD on Tuesday 27th (5Q23), then it spends a few hours (from about 1000 to 1500) in the bay platform at West Ealing on Thursday for testing the train to battery banks comms, then on Friday 1st, there are a few runs up and down the branch for PTI testing.

The battery banks aren't live yet, so all the above will be done via trickle charging overnight at West Ealing LMD.

Sorry if I've missed it but is the booked Greenford shuttle not running between those hours? RTT suggests it is and on P5, so where would it go?