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GWR Class 769 information. (Units no longer with GWR - Off Lease March 23)

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Bob Price

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The issue with the whole 769 project was they were taking old stock and adding diesel engines. As TfW found the condition the stock was in when they received them was poor and they had to do a lot of work to get them running. The plan is for theirs to go and be replaced with 231's very soon. It was a great project on paper designed to fill a gap quickly but with hindsight a batch of Tri Mode new builds would have been quicker and more effective. Knowing what happened to the 442's, scrapping them wouldn't surprise me.
 
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DanNCL

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If the 769s are now not entering service, they're surely either going to have to review the decision to get rid of all the HSTs, or they'll need to take on DMUs from TFW once the 197s and 231s take over more work in Wales. The rolling stock arrangements simply don't work otherwise.
 

Benjwri

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The rolling stock arrangements simply don't work otherwise.
That or we're looking at significant service cuts in the May 23 timetable change. Given the cuts the DfT wants it doesn't seem too unreasonable to guess this might happen.
 

JonathanH

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The rolling stock arrangements simply don't work otherwise
Surely they do. The 165s stay at Reading and there are no service enhancements in the Bristol area.

It has already been pointed out in other threads that idle 802s entirely replace the HSTs with the issue not being insufficient rolling stock but insufficient traincrew ready to work these.
 

JonathanH

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Seems odd, if the plan since June has been never to use the 769s, that they have been on so many training runs since then.
They reportedly haven't been out on training runs, it appears to have just been maintaining competence for the trainers. Only three round trips a week at most in any case.
 

Benno

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The issue with the whole 769 project was they were taking old stock and adding diesel engines. As TfW found the condition the stock was in when they received them was poor and they had to do a lot of work to get them running. The plan is for theirs to go and be replaced with 231's very soon. It was a great project on paper designed to fill a gap quickly but with hindsight a batch of Tri Mode new builds would have been quicker and more effective. Knowing what happened to the 442's, scrapping them wouldn't surprise me.
The difficulty with the 769 project was adding two diesel engines, with two alternators, and then feeding this supply into one powered carriage. If you have ever travelled on one it is strange to hear the diesel engines rev up and then the whine of the traction motors as they start to move. The TFW ones are diesel only and I spent a few weeks around Cardiff a couple of months ago when the 769s seemed to be performing fine, I never saw any cancellations because of them (I'm not saying there weren't any, just that I never saw any.)

The TFW 769s go off lease May 2023 and unless there are any issues which mean they have to stay any longer, they will be returned to the Rosco.
 

DanNCL

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That or we're looking at significant service cuts in the May 23 timetable change. Given the cuts the DfT wants it doesn't seem too unreasonable to guess this might happen.
Surely they do. The 165s stay at Reading and there are no service enhancements in the Bristol area.

It has already been pointed out in other threads that idle 802s entirely replace the HSTs with the issue not being insufficient rolling stock but insufficient traincrew ready to work these.
I thought it had been established in the HST thread that those withdrawal plans were dependent on the successful introduction of the 769s?

In any case there aren’t enough surplus 802s to cover all of the HST work, Turbos will be needed too, and they have to come from somewhere - that somewhere was Reading.
 

Bob Price

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The difficulty with the 769 project was adding two diesel engines, with two alternators, and then feeding this supply into one powered carriage. If you have ever travelled on one it is strange to hear the diesel engines rev up and then the whine of the traction motors as they start to move. The TFW ones are diesel only and I spent a few weeks around Cardiff a couple of months ago when the 769s seemed to be performing fine, I never saw any cancellations because of them (I'm not saying there weren't any, just that I never saw any.)
Yes it is odd hammering through Caerphilly tunnel hearing traction motors at full whine. Their issue is hills under diesel and they frequently have run late going up. The gradient out of Penarth is especially troublesome.
 

HamworthyGoods

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I thought it had been established in the HST thread that those withdrawal plans were dependent on the successful introduction of the 769s?

No there is no dependency. This has been explained many times on the GWR HST thread.

In any case there aren’t enough surplus 802s to cover all of the HST work, Turbos will be needed too, and they have to come from somewhere - that somewhere was Reading.

Yes there are enough 80x spare, these have been released from the withdrawal of Bedwyn services (3 sets), Bristol super-fast services (7 sets) and South Wales peak super fasts (2 sets) which frees up the 12 x 5car 80x needed to replace the Castle HSTs.

It has already been pointed out in other threads that idle 802s entirely replace the HSTs with the issue not being insufficient rolling stock but insufficient traincrew ready to work these.

Correct. The lead time is the traincrew training not available 80x.
 

norbitonflyer

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If you have ever travelled on one it is strange to hear the diesel engines rev up and then the whine of the traction motors as they start to move.
Not so strange to those of us who remember the Hastings diesels and the "Thumpers"

Looks like a trip to Cardiff or Manchester will be needed, soonish, if I am ever to ride a 769.
 

Snow1964

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Although the 769s do not appear in the rolling stock tables after the 1st April 2023 lease expiry, the new GWR contract does have standard clauses about Secretary of State can direct or authorise variations.

So not guaranteed the 769s are not remaining after March. It could be alternatives were being considered, or they simply were not meeting a contractual spec to justify being leased at whatever price is being charged.

If one is brutally honest, with trains that would be 33-36 years old (in 2023), would want them either reliable & good and/or cheap to justify leasing them.

The only other reason for leasing them would be desperate as nothing else available. Whilst this probably applied in 2019-2022, won’t really be a reason by mid 2023, when other stock starts to come free, eg some DMUs in Wales, or class 221 or 222 etc (which might take over somewhere else, cascading other diesel stock). Not going to go off topic speculating cascades, but what I want to highlight is the 769s (because they are unreliable) doesn’t look a good option anymore, once alternatives start to become available.
 

AM9

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Not so strange to those of us who remember the Hastings diesels and the "Thumpers"
Yes that's exactly how diesel-electric transmissions work, - the the diesel engine spins up so that the generator can produce enough traction power to turn the motors. It's been that way since the first diesel-electric locos were delivered to BR. The only diffefrence with the 769s is that the new MAN engines are so quiet compared with those in earlier DEMUs (e.g. 22x), so the motor whine is easier to hear over the prime mover.
 

norbitonflyer

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Yes that's exactly how diesel-electric transmissions work, - the the diesel engine spins up so that the generator can produce enough traction power to turn the motors. It's been that way since the first diesel-electric locos were delivered to BR. The only diffefrence with the 769s is that the new MAN engines are so quiet compared with those in earlier DEMUs (e.g. 22x), so the motor whine is easier to hear over the prime mover.
Indeed - in the SR types (Class 20x) the effect was most noticeable if you were sitting at the non-driving end of the power car, where the diesel was still audible but didn't drown out the traction motors directly beneath you. (Unlike SR straight electrics of the period, the traction bogie was at the inner end of the power car - presumably for reasons of weight distribution)
 

Ribbleman

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Not so strange to those of us who remember the Hastings diesels and the "Thumpers"

Looks like a trip to Cardiff or Manchester will be needed, soonish, if I am ever to ride a 769.
At a briefing that Northern gave to Stakeholders last month we were told that there is nothing available to replace them and that in any case, the 8 units are leased until 2025. So, I think that you have time yet.
 

Nicholas Lewis

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Not a good indicator of the 769s whatsoever, but if I'm honest doesn't come as a surprise - it seems that between the drivers disputing over the cab layout, and the fact they don't seem to be able to make it from Reading to Redhill and back without needing to be rescued, I have been losing any hope of their entry into service for quite a few months now.
Saw a 769 on way upto Reigate earlier came over from Reading RT returned to Oxford RT
 

jackot

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Saw a 769 on way upto Reigate earlier came over from Reading RT returned to Oxford RT
Are you sure it was a 769? :lol: But in all seriousness that is progress I suppose, but it has been almost 2 years of testing and the main things we have head about their introduction are issues, speculation and now potential for them to be scrapped completely - not very promising.
 

FGW_DID

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Saw a 769 on way upto Reigate earlier came over from Reading RT returned to Oxford RT

769959 did todays NDL run but ended at Oxford

769938 ran from Oxford to Reading TCD.

Are you sure it was a 769? :lol: But in all seriousness that is progress I suppose, but it has been almost 2 years of testing and the main things we have head about their introduction are issues, speculation and now potential for them to be scrapped completely - not very promising.

it’s not testing, the MWFO runs are mainly for the trainers to keep their competency up. Nobody mentions the runs that occur without problem but are quick to leap on any delays / faults & failures and post about them here, it’s almost as if there was an agenda with some posters!
 

Wyrleybart

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The difficulty with the 769 project was adding two diesel engines, with two alternators, and then feeding this supply into one powered carriage. If you have ever travelled on one it is strange to hear the diesel engines rev up and then the whine of the traction motors as they start to move. The TFW ones are diesel only and I spent a few weeks around Cardiff a couple of months ago when the 769s seemed to be performing fine, I never saw any cancellations because of them (I'm not saying there weren't any, just that I never saw any.)

AIUI the 769s were born because someone thought the DC bus down the train was a great way to link the two diesel engines together and provide the "fake" diesel supply to the third rail. Additionally, the class 319 chopper electronics were the most suitable for use on the diesel control side. AIUI the existing 750V DC bus was used, but they had to install another bus anyway because the GWR 769s needed to use the existing 750V DC bus to operate of the third rail. I may have the wrong end of the stick but that is how I understand it, but of course, if 769s were actually any good they should be working the Cardiff - Pompey trains which would run on AC to Filton and DC from Redbridge. We know the answer to that one don't we.
 

Bikeman78

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The difficulty with the 769 project was adding two diesel engines, with two alternators, and then feeding this supply into one powered carriage. If you have ever travelled on one it is strange to hear the diesel engines rev up and then the whine of the traction motors as they start to move.
The Southern Region class 205 used the same principle. Basically a 2HAP with a big diesel engine mounted in one coach to power the electric motors. The diesel ran at full power from about 10 mph right up to 75 mph. It was entertaining if you sat above the motors when the train encountered a steep climb. The diesel would keep going at exactly the same speed whilst the motors went slower and slower.

Has anyone been on a 769 on slippery rails? Presumably the diesels ease off every time the wheels start slipping? How quickly do they react?
 

TurboMan

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it’s not testing, the MWFO runs are mainly for the trainers to keep their competency up. Nobody mentions the runs that occur without problem but are quick to leap on any delays / faults & failures and post about them here, it’s almost as if there was an agenda with some posters!
It's a bit of both really. There have been some ASDO test runs, but more recently the main purpose is really just to keep the units 'warm'. The traction equipment doesn't like sitting around in the cold and damp, so they get taken out for a spin. The driver learning managers who have been working them recently are getting plenty of handling so if they missed a week or two it wouldn't hurt (which is what's happening now anyway, no runs until the new year, due to the ongoing strikes and Xmas).
 

Nicholas Lewis

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AIUI the 769s were born because someone thought the DC bus down the train was a great way to link the two diesel engines together and provide the "fake" diesel supply to the third rail. Additionally, the class 319 chopper electronics were the most suitable for use on the diesel control side. AIUI the existing 750V DC bus was used, but they had to install another bus anyway because the GWR 769s needed to use the existing 750V DC bus to operate of the third rail. I may have the wrong end of the stick but that is how I understand it, but of course, if 769s were actually any good they should be working the Cardiff - Pompey trains which would run on AC to Filton and DC from Redbridge. We know the answer to that one don't we.
They had to install a negative bus return as the non electrified lines are not designed to accept high levels of traction return current in the running rails. they would be perfectly capable of running Cardiff to Pompy. Best way forward now would be to procure couple 100 Stadler 755 types so every operator could eliminate diesel work over electrified lines Ac or DC. Aint going to happen of course.
 

TurboMan

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Has anyone been on a 769 on slippery rails? Presumably the diesels ease off every time the wheels start slipping? How quickly do they react?
Yes they do. But then the engine revs don't necessarily respond to power demand from the traction motors - sometimes when you shut off power the engine revs increase, and if you try to take power with the DRA set the engine revs increase but there's obviously no power to the traction motors.
 

AM9

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AIUI the 769s were born because someone thought the DC bus down the train was a great way to link the two diesel engines together and provide the "fake" diesel supply to the third rail. Additionally, the class 319 chopper electronics were the most suitable for use on the diesel control side. AIUI the existing 750V DC bus was used, but they had to install another bus anyway because the GWR 769s needed to use the existing 750V DC bus to operate of the third rail. I may have the wrong end of the stick but that is how I understand it, but of course, if 769s were actually any good they should be working the Cardiff - Pompey trains which would run on AC to Filton and DC from Redbridge. We know the answer to that one don't we.
Actually, the 769s were born because at the time there was rising passenger num bers with a corresponding looming shortage of DMU as well as a commitment to remove the pacers that weren't going to be made accessible. Porterbrook who were about to see their 86 class 319s come off lease had an idea that they might be suitable for a conversion to DEMU, whilst retaining their ability to run as straight EMUs. Unlike the other ageing MKIII EMUs (classes 317, 318 & 320-322) they uniquely had a DC bus by virtue of their need to run on 3rd rail 750VDC. (The ac only MKIII classes have thyristor traction control of the DC motors straight from the transformer so there was no DC capable electronics to feed from a locally generated DC supply.)
Whist running as an EMU, i.e. just like a 319, the local DC return from the motors was via the running rails. This return path could not be guaranteed on unelectrified track, so a local return bus was installed.
There was a major control issue during development of the 769 design that resulted in the two gensets hunting whilst trying to power the DC bus. This was fixed with (I believe ) as software modification on the system. There was then an out of gauge issue with the exhaust ducting that required a redesign. This required some mechanical redesgn of the exhaust system, but under current design proving rules, it was necessary to book a retest of the complete system and most of the delay was time spent the queue to access a suitable test facility.
All through the programme there has been the spectre of the units age and ultimately reliability, which once they entered service with Northern, became an operational inconvenience. This of course ran in a period when Northern had other issues, notably driver shortages and an inadequate arrangement for refuelling, especially when they were prevented from using OLE for more of the route than was planned. Similarly there have been failures that are unrelated to their '769 only' equipment that some commentators have rushed to blame on the diesel/genset. As @FGW_DID says, "Nobody mentions the runs that occur without problem but are quick to leap on any delays / faults & failures and post about them here, it’s almost as if there was an agenda with some posters!" Then these regular critics vanish into the woodwwork until the next problem with the service occurs, - there have even been posts condemning the 769s when a service delay has been caused by a freight train breakdown!
 

Greybeard33

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AIUI the existing 750V DC bus was used, but they had to install another bus anyway because the GWR 769s needed to use the existing 750V DC bus to operate of the third rail.
They had to install a negative bus return as the non electrified lines are not designed to accept high levels of traction return current in the running rails.
I believe that the GWR 769s (but not the Northern and TfW ones) have three bus lines, one negative return and two positive, one for the diesel generators and the other to hook up the third rail shoes. It would not be acceptable for the shoes to be live when in diesel mode.
 

DelW

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The only difference with the 769s is that the new MAN engines are so quiet compared with those in earlier DEMUs (e.g. 22x), so the motor whine is easier to hear over the prime mover.
One would hope that those new engines can be recovered for use elsewhere if the units go for scrap after they go off lease at the end of March, rather than disappearing into Sims' shredder or similar.

Was any of their new traction equipment recovered when the unused 442s were scrapped?
 

Sam 76

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One would hope that those new engines can be recovered for use elsewhere if the units go for scrap after they go off lease at the end of March, rather than disappearing into Sims' shredder or similar.

Was any of their new traction equipment recovered when the unused 442s were scrapped?
Could Northern potentially take them and use them to run the whole Southport line with 769’s just on Diesel mode as since the timetable change there is no longer any electrified paths for the 769s
 

Deepgreen

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Sorry, but as a career railwayman and enthusiastic passenger using the NDL, this has been utterly pathetic. I have no idea what the full cost has been for this abortive project but it will have been very substantial. There has been a lack of drive in the railway to pursue vigorously the blindingly obvious sensible option of third rail infill and there appears to have been an amazing naivety about the conversion of very old units into reliable electro-diesels. The shambolic nature of rolling stock deployment on the whole railway has added to the mess and is one of the innumerable disasters of privatisation. I know others will say that the knowledge gained will be valuable - but will it really? Will anyone touch any project like this again with a barge pole? Meanwhile the NDL blunders on with the appalling decade-plus-long mismanagement of the 165/166 regime for who knows how much longer. An embarrasment.
 
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