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GWR Class 800

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Minilad

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Well I managed my first ride on an 800 yesterday. I had to meet up with a friend in the Bristol area so went down a little early and had a few out and backs to Swindon and Parkway. First impressions can be summed up by a simple "meh" Quiet, for a DMU, and reasonably steady ride. Great legroom in standard class. I know they've been done to death but the seats were uncomfortable for me even on such a short journey. I really wouldn't fancy them for anything over 90 mins or so. They whole thing just felt rather clinical. It just didn't "feel" like an inter city train at all. I only saw a buffet trolly once. I took two round trips. 2 were 2x5 one was 1x 5 and the other was a HST. All off peak and I easily got a seat on all of them. If this is the future of inter city rail travel in the UK then it's about to get functional but boring. I guess some people will like that though.
 
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jackj321

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I did a return journey from London Paddington to Bristol Temple Meads yesterday and both journeys were on the new 800 units (of which, the return journey was booked to run as 2x5 car units but instead ran as 1x5 car unit due to maintenance issues).

I have to say I have mixed reviews on these 800 units. What I do like is the quick acceleration particularly when running on electric from Paddington to Didcot Parkway and the sleek looking design. I accept that most HST units will need to be replaced as they are old and sluggish but I feel that GWR have made the step in the wrong direction when introducing the 800 units. The interior is nicely lit but the tables and wooding around the toilet area look and feel very cheaply made and the seats are very uncomfortable compared to the HST units.

I do understand that 1st Class on weekend services are limited in terms of availability but I found GWR very poor yesterday, I have had better experience with GWR but I feel that other operators such as Virgin West Coast and East Coast, East Midlands and even CrossCountry deliver a better 1st Class on the weekend. On the outbound journey only 1 host was available for the entire train (2x5 car unit) and as a result the at seat trolley service only came down each unit once and was told that if we wanted something we have to go to the host instead of them coming to us. That, in my view is not a First Class service as it shows that GWR are not as attentive compared to other operators. In comparison with the return journey the First Class was declassified and fortunately they were still providing first class ticket holders with drinks and some snacks. I do not think it is fair for people to fork out a lot of money to receive such a poor First Class service irrespective whether it is a weekday or weekend service.
 

samuelmorris

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18 Jul 2013
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Brentwood, Essex
First ride on an 800 today finally (800025). A little disappointing to be honest. Obviously I expected the seats to be hard, they were no better or worse than expected and I agree that they're basically like 700 first class seats. Fine for the short trip to Reading, but it was certainly commented on how much more comfortable the tatty 458 we returned to London on was by comparison, even if it was far noisier.

The sound deadening is perfectly satisfactory for long-distance express stock, no issue there. Traction noise doesn't bother me, but the 800s are probably the noisiest of all the high-speed EMUs for that up to 60mph which is a bit of a shame considering 395s were better. Desiro UKs and Pendolinos are considerably better still (and so far Aventras top of the class outside loco-hauled stock) so that's a bit of a retrograde step (this is AC power of course, I can't comment on diesel mode noise/performance until I've travelled on one on such a section). At high speeds they're absolutely fine for noise.

Lots of rattle from all the window blinds, I managed to sort ours by pushing it upwards firmly but the one opposite was just as bad, that's a bit poor for such a modern unit. Mostly exacerbated by wheel imbalance at high speed, which is also a little surprising. Being able to feel each rotation of the wheel underneath, even slightly, is a bit unusual on an express unit (there was no wheel flat).

The 'clinical' interior people have complained about I honestly thought was fine. The green strip is the wrong colour, but it's not offensive in of itself, they just need a proper seat pattern (e.g. the one on the 387s would be absolutely fine!) and it'd look nice enough in there.

Reservation system was non-functional - I gather this is still the norm? Also unimpressive given how long the units have been in service. There was also no trolley between Paddington and Reading, but I'm not sure what the schedule is supposed to be like.

PA announcement was completely inaudible - sound was clear, but volume was so low that it was drowned out by track noise even at relatively low speeds.

PIS display was largely unused throughout the journey - why that couldn't repeat the calling pattern at least occasionally I'm not sure. The approach SWT used to alternate between the time and the calling pattern is a good example of how I think that should work.

Toilet was in the condition you usually find public toilets in, pretty ghastly, but for the most part it all worked OK, no physical damage to anything or any loose fittings yet, but no heating element on the dryer - not sure if that's by design, but a relatively mediocre amount of cold air means drying your hands is a fairly lengthy process.

Perhaps the most problematic aspect of the journey really was the TOC itself - the service was only advertised for boarding 10 minutes prior and the side displays were changed at even shorter notice than that despite the train having occupied the platform at Paddington for more than an hour. The NR app advertised the wrong platform for the service - relying on RTT for terminus platform info that disagrees with NR is always a bit risky, so I ended up having to ask a member of staff what service the train was. Not had to do that for a long time. The service itself, not that this affected us, was also short terminated for lack of drivers, and I notice a very large number of cancellations elsewhere on GWR today due to driver issues, perhaps second only to Thameslink. I didn't realise that situation was still that bad, and am surprised it hasn't made the national news alongside the other TOCs that are suffering. The timetabled dwell times are also enormous - 12 minutes at Reading. I know it's a bit unfair to criticise for that on a Sunday service, but it doesn't really seem necessary to me.

The overall experience wasn't exactly negative, we arrived at Reading on time in under 30 minutes, the train was clean, fairly quiet and fairly smooth, but this is no premium product. Three first class coaches coupled together means over an 80m walk to reach standard class from the stairwell at Paddington, the traction gear is noisy, the seats are, well, that's been done to death but it's still valid, and I'll be honest, in terms of refinement and 'rattle quality' the Class 800 I find to be largely-speaking par with the 345. The only upside really is much quieter air conditioning. I know technology has come on a bit and Metro trains are nothing like they used to be but I was expecting a little better. They'll do, but they're nothing special :P

Certainly I think Mk IV passengers on the ECML are going to be a little disappointed by what they're being replaced with.
 

Goldfish62

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Joined
14 Feb 2010
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11,720
First ride on an 800 today finally (800025). A little disappointing to be honest. Obviously I expected the seats to be hard, they were no better or worse than expected and I agree that they're basically like 700 first class seats. Fine for the short trip to Reading, but it was certainly commented on how much more comfortable the tatty 458 we returned to London on was by comparison, even if it was far noisier.

The sound deadening is perfectly satisfactory for long-distance express stock, no issue there. Traction noise doesn't bother me, but the 800s are probably the noisiest of all the high-speed EMUs for that up to 60mph which is a bit of a shame considering 395s were better. Desiro UKs and Pendolinos are considerably better still (and so far Aventras top of the class outside loco-hauled stock) so that's a bit of a retrograde step (this is AC power of course, I can't comment on diesel mode noise/performance until I've travelled on one on such a section). At high speeds they're absolutely fine for noise.

Lots of rattle from all the window blinds, I managed to sort ours by pushing it upwards firmly but the one opposite was just as bad, that's a bit poor for such a modern unit. Mostly exacerbated by wheel imbalance at high speed, which is also a little surprising. Being able to feel each rotation of the wheel underneath, even slightly, is a bit unusual on an express unit (there was no wheel flat).

The 'clinical' interior people have complained about I honestly thought was fine. The green strip is the wrong colour, but it's not offensive in of itself, they just need a proper seat pattern (e.g. the one on the 387s would be absolutely fine!) and it'd look nice enough in there.

Reservation system was non-functional - I gather this is still the norm? Also unimpressive given how long the units have been in service. There was also no trolley between Paddington and Reading, but I'm not sure what the schedule is supposed to be like.

PA announcement was completely inaudible - sound was clear, but volume was so low that it was drowned out by track noise even at relatively low speeds.

PIS display was largely unused throughout the journey - why that couldn't repeat the calling pattern at least occasionally I'm not sure. The approach SWT used to alternate between the time and the calling pattern is a good example of how I think that should work.

Toilet was in the condition you usually find public toilets in, pretty ghastly, but for the most part it all worked OK, no physical damage to anything or any loose fittings yet, but no heating element on the dryer - not sure if that's by design, but a relatively mediocre amount of cold air means drying your hands is a fairly lengthy process.

Perhaps the most problematic aspect of the journey really was the TOC itself - the service was only advertised for boarding 10 minutes prior and the side displays were changed at even shorter notice than that despite the train having occupied the platform at Paddington for more than an hour. The NR app advertised the wrong platform for the service - relying on RTT for terminus platform info that disagrees with NR is always a bit risky, so I ended up having to ask a member of staff what service the train was. Not had to do that for a long time. The service itself, not that this affected us, was also short terminated for lack of drivers, and I notice a very large number of cancellations elsewhere on GWR today due to driver issues, perhaps second only to Thameslink. I didn't realise that situation was still that bad, and am surprised it hasn't made the national news alongside the other TOCs that are suffering. The timetabled dwell times are also enormous - 12 minutes at Reading. I know it's a bit unfair to criticise for that on a Sunday service, but it doesn't really seem necessary to me.

The overall experience wasn't exactly negative, we arrived at Reading on time in under 30 minutes, the train was clean, fairly quiet and fairly smooth, but this is no premium product. Three first class coaches coupled together means over an 80m walk to reach standard class from the stairwell at Paddington, the traction gear is noisy, the seats are, well, that's been done to death but it's still valid, and I'll be honest, in terms of refinement and 'rattle quality' the Class 800 I find to be largely-speaking par with the 345. The only upside really is much quieter air conditioning. I know technology has come on a bit and Metro trains are nothing like they used to be but I was expecting a little better. They'll do, but they're nothing special :P

Certainly I think Mk IV passengers on the ECML are going to be a little disappointed by what they're being replaced with.
I think that's a very objective review.
 

Mintona

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8 Jan 2006
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I heard from two different sources yesterday of a potential change in formation of at least some of the GWR fleet. To me it sounds unlikely but I was wondering if anyone more informed had heard anything?
 

The Ham

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6 Jul 2012
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10,980
I heard from two different sources yesterday of a potential change in formation of at least some of the GWR fleet. To me it sounds unlikely but I was wondering if anyone more informed had heard anything?

If it does turn out to be happening (which given what's been said in the past about the problems with anything other than 5, 9 or 10 coach units does make it sound unlikely) it would make a follow on order for more coaches to put the fleet back to 5, 9 or 10 coach units during the next franchise note likely.
 

Thunderer

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29 Nov 2013
Messages
441
Location
South Wales
First ride on an 800 today finally (800025). A little disappointing to be honest. Obviously I expected the seats to be hard, they were no better or worse than expected and I agree that they're basically like 700 first class seats. Fine for the short trip to Reading, but it was certainly commented on how much more comfortable the tatty 458 we returned to London on was by comparison, even if it was far noisier.

The sound deadening is perfectly satisfactory for long-distance express stock, no issue there. Traction noise doesn't bother me, but the 800s are probably the noisiest of all the high-speed EMUs for that up to 60mph which is a bit of a shame considering 395s were better. Desiro UKs and Pendolinos are considerably better still (and so far Aventras top of the class outside loco-hauled stock) so that's a bit of a retrograde step (this is AC power of course, I can't comment on diesel mode noise/performance until I've travelled on one on such a section). At high speeds they're absolutely fine for noise.

Lots of rattle from all the window blinds, I managed to sort ours by pushing it upwards firmly but the one opposite was just as bad, that's a bit poor for such a modern unit. Mostly exacerbated by wheel imbalance at high speed, which is also a little surprising. Being able to feel each rotation of the wheel underneath, even slightly, is a bit unusual on an express unit (there was no wheel flat).

The 'clinical' interior people have complained about I honestly thought was fine. The green strip is the wrong colour, but it's not offensive in of itself, they just need a proper seat pattern (e.g. the one on the 387s would be absolutely fine!) and it'd look nice enough in there.

Reservation system was non-functional - I gather this is still the norm? Also unimpressive given how long the units have been in service. There was also no trolley between Paddington and Reading, but I'm not sure what the schedule is supposed to be like.

PA announcement was completely inaudible - sound was clear, but volume was so low that it was drowned out by track noise even at relatively low speeds.

PIS display was largely unused throughout the journey - why that couldn't repeat the calling pattern at least occasionally I'm not sure. The approach SWT used to alternate between the time and the calling pattern is a good example of how I think that should work.

Toilet was in the condition you usually find public toilets in, pretty ghastly, but for the most part it all worked OK, no physical damage to anything or any loose fittings yet, but no heating element on the dryer - not sure if that's by design, but a relatively mediocre amount of cold air means drying your hands is a fairly lengthy process.

Perhaps the most problematic aspect of the journey really was the TOC itself - the service was only advertised for boarding 10 minutes prior and the side displays were changed at even shorter notice than that despite the train having occupied the platform at Paddington for more than an hour. The NR app advertised the wrong platform for the service - relying on RTT for terminus platform info that disagrees with NR is always a bit risky, so I ended up having to ask a member of staff what service the train was. Not had to do that for a long time. The service itself, not that this affected us, was also short terminated for lack of drivers, and I notice a very large number of cancellations elsewhere on GWR today due to driver issues, perhaps second only to Thameslink. I didn't realise that situation was still that bad, and am surprised it hasn't made the national news alongside the other TOCs that are suffering. The timetabled dwell times are also enormous - 12 minutes at Reading. I know it's a bit unfair to criticise for that on a Sunday service, but it doesn't really seem necessary to me.

The overall experience wasn't exactly negative, we arrived at Reading on time in under 30 minutes, the train was clean, fairly quiet and fairly smooth, but this is no premium product. Three first class coaches coupled together means over an 80m walk to reach standard class from the stairwell at Paddington, the traction gear is noisy, the seats are, well, that's been done to death but it's still valid, and I'll be honest, in terms of refinement and 'rattle quality' the Class 800 I find to be largely-speaking par with the 345. The only upside really is much quieter air conditioning. I know technology has come on a bit and Metro trains are nothing like they used to be but I was expecting a little better. They'll do, but they're nothing special :P

Certainly I think Mk IV passengers on the ECML are going to be a little disappointed by what they're being replaced with.
Very fair review and you are absolutely right when you say "This is no Premium Product" - interiors do rattle and are basically tacky.
 

PHILIPE

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I noticed on Journey Check earlier this morning of an IET service formed 5 vice 10 that it was due to "Withdrawn for Driver Training" instead of "more than usual needing repairs" . This is the first time I've seen the truth mentioned although perhaps not in all cases.
 

JN114

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28 Jun 2005
Messages
3,465
I noticed on Journey Check earlier this morning of an IET service formed 5 vice 10 that it was due to "Withdrawn for Driver Training" instead of "more than usual needing repairs" . This is the first time I've seen the truth mentioned although perhaps not in all cases.

“Short Formation due to some trains being taken out of passenger service to accelerate driver training” was the wording used.
 

Pete_uk

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Stroud, Glos
So there I was on a quiet Platform 2 at Stroud listening out to hear how many carriages the service to Cheltenham had. '...Nine...' came the answer. The service was a few minutes late, but the service to London on Platform 1 was a few minutes later still, leaving about 150 people to have a great view of the future of their journeys.

With her breaks squealing and lights dazzling she pulled in, taking up the whole platform. So there it was, the end result of the plans I first read about in the mid 2000's. It looked smart as it stood there for about 15 seconds before the doors opened with its engines humming away. The engine noise wasn't intrusive and sounded smooth. When they revved the train pulled away faster than I have ever seen a train pull away. Then it was gone, leaving those still awaiting their venerable HST looking on with interest.
 

irish_rail

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I heard from two different sources yesterday of a potential change in formation of at least some of the GWR fleet. To me it sounds unlikely but I was wondering if anyone more informed had heard anything?
Can u elaborate for those of us out of the loop??
 

PHILIPE

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Sorry, I wasn’t trying to correct you; just confirm exactly what was written.

Thanks. No problem. I saw it this morning but as I was going out, didn't post until later by which time the train had completed it's journey and disappeared from Journey Check
 

The Ham

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6 Jul 2012
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10,980
Shortening nine cars and extending five cars to have a larger fleet of seven cars and still some fives to be doubled up for busiest services.

Wouldn't that be to have a fleet of 7 coach units (as they don't have any)?
 

JN114

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Shortening nine cars and extending five cars to have a larger fleet of seven cars and still some fives to be doubled up for busiest services.

Oh god I hope not...

Extending some 5s to make 9s with new build vehicles is a good idea. 7s are too long to double up but too short for peak loadings. If you fully eradicate the 9s you are relying on 5+5s for high peak capacity, and to make the 7s you lose some of the 5s; which reduces the number of 5+5s you can form up.
 

Charlie M.

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The issue here is the way these trains have been faded in and at what time.

Short forms will happen until the major driver training for the 800s finish, which could still be a year yet, although the new timetable is set to sort some of this out.

5x5 isn’t too bad but yeah I do understand the issues with this formation. Again, once the new timetable, services like Cheltenham will be operated by 5 cars off peak with the 9cars going to Wales/Bristol. Plenty of these have been ordered and these were initially electric only trains for those routes.
 

Domh245

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Can they be easily reformed? The vehicles on each unit look "permanently coupled" to me?

The couplers are probably more aptly described as semi permanent - ie you can uncouple them, but you need to spend a bit of time doing it and have a set of tools to do so. I would expect that you'd need to update the software on them, but certainly if the will was there you could quite easily rearrange the formations in a depot.

However, odds of it happening are slim because it doesn't really solve anything in terms of capacity, it means you've got a 7 car train that is too short for peak services and can't be doubled up and perhaps more importantly, it'll be a massive contract variation (remember the franchise pays for a number of 5 & 9 car diagrams per day, rather than xyz many vehicles) and therefore horrendously expensive
 

TwistedMentat

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It should be pretty doable in the shop, but you aren't going to be doing it at the platform.

Anyways, I agree with the idea of creating a bunch of mid sized 7 car units is terribly short sighted. Too big for off peak, too small for peak, and you can't double up without really running into platform length issues.

If it turns out to be a real problem I would expect extra middle cars to be ordered to turn some of the 5 car units into 9 car units. And maybe, just maybe 9 car to 10 car units. But that's all far future stuff to look at after the rollout is complete.
 

47802

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There was a requirement that it would be fairly easy to change the length of the sets by reforming them.

Sounds like a load of rubbish to me, this also the matter of unpowered and powered trailer cars on a 9 coach. You would have to take out 1 powered and 1 unpowered to make a 7 car powered by 4 engines.
 

Clarence Yard

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I heard from two different sources yesterday of a potential change in formation of at least some of the GWR fleet. To me it sounds unlikely but I was wondering if anyone more informed had heard anything?

It’s wibble. There is no such plan.
 

The Ham

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Sounds like a load of rubbish to me, this also the matter of unpowered and powered trailer cars on a 9 coach. You would have to take out 1 powered and 1 unpowered to make a 7 car powered by 4 engines.



My post was in response to could the units be changed in length and not the specifics of having 7 coach units.



I was saying that when the DfT asked for bids one of the requirements was that it should be fairly easy (i.e. in a few hours) to change the length of the units. Obviously when looking at the bimodals there would be a need to move the correct coaches about.



However, aren't all 3 of the central coaches on the 5 coach versions powered whilst 5 of 9 of the longer sets. That would meet 4 of 7 which would give the 7 coach sets a bit more power than the 9 coach units.



In terms of operating the units there would be a big problem with trying to make 7 coach sets in that the 9 coach sets have a full coach is first class seating. That would mean either swapping seats so that two composite coaches become one first class and one standard class coach, it it would require running two different types of 7 coach units with different amount of first class seating. Neither option would be very attractive for the reasonably short time left of the franchise after all the units will be in service.



For reference the classes in each coach are:



Five coach units are driver standard 2*full standard, composite coach and driver first.



Nine couch units are driver standard, 5*full standard, composite coach, full first, and first.



If there's an issue with 5 coach sets being too short it is likely to be something that is fixed as part of the next franchise given that it's due to start in about 22 months.



Unless EMT and/or XC order 80x's (even if they do there's three locations that the coaches could be built so there could be a rush order squeezed in if needed) chances are GWR would be able to get 12-24 extra coaches (enough for 3-6 of the 5 coach units to become 9 coaches) relatively quickly, probably in time for summer 2020.



3-6 of the 5 coach fleet becoming 9 coach units doesn't sound a lot, however it's 5-10% of the 5 coach fleet or 8-17% of the 9 coach fleet. Either way that's a reasonable shift in the fleet towards 9 coach units.

Given the potential for the complexity of the IEP contract it could be that those extra coaches are added into the 802 fleet.
 
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