GWR Class 800

[irish_rail]

GWR are saying to Tweeters that the poor catering service is under review in order to effect improvements, Whether anything happens or not is another matter.

Well at least GWR are finally acknowledging the catering is a joke....

 

[irish_rail]

In case anyone is interested a petition has been set up to " bring back the buffet " only takes a moment to sign....

https://you.38degrees.org.uk/petitions/great-western-railway-bring-back-the-buffet

 

[jimm]

I don’t buy all of that. FGW/GWR have been trying for years to go trolley only: they took the buffets out of a proportion of the HST fleet back in 2007, only to have to expensively convert some standard vehicles to small buffets when the trolleys were found to be sub-standard. Later still they took the buffets they had previously got rid of and converted them to standard vehicles, in what overall was a superb exercise in ****ing money up the wall.

I don't think that any of the countless GWR passengers who gave been able to sit on a seat on busy HSTs since 2012 are unhappy that money was spent on the conversions - in the absence of any other source of Mk3 coaches that could have been used.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I don't think that any of the countless GWR passengers who gave been able to sit on a seat on busy HSTs since 2012 are unhappy that money was spent on the conversions - in the absence of any other source of Mk3 coaches that could have been used.

I think the suggestion was not that the additional capacity should not have been provided, but that the whole faffing about buffet vs. no buffet cost a load of money unnecessarily. If it had been done as full size buffet -> minibuffet and more seats in the first place that would have been loads, loads cheaper.

 

[jimm]

No one who knows anything about the Cotswold Line has ever demanded that every train on the route should have 650 seats all day, every day, all year. For the simple reason that it would be daft - no one needs to be an expert analyst of passenger flows to know that.

And similar considerations apply in Cornwall when it comes to balancing seating capacity and passenger numbers, whether you, or others, like it or not.

Clarence Yard has explained on numerous occasions that the numbers did not stack up for nine-car trains on all London services as well as 2 trains per hour through Cornwall. I wonder which of those the average passenger making local and regional journeys in Cornwall will find the most useful in the long run?

 

[Thunderer]

Had a ride on practically brand new 802111 yesterday between Swansea and Cardiff, everything was spotlessly clean. Had a ride back on 800309 and the windows were filthy, could just about see out of mine. Thats not the first time either, took 800026 last Saturday as part of a pair to Cardiff and the windows again were very dirty. Are Agility/Hitachi skimping on the external cleaning of these new trains, or are they just not getting enough time on depot for a thorough external clean?

 

[jimm]

I think the suggestion was not that the additional capacity should not have been provided, but that the whole faffing about buffet vs. no buffet cost a load of money unnecessarily. If it had been done as full size buffet -> minibuffet and more seats in the first place that would have been loads, loads cheaper.

You could probably write a book about various policy swings at FGW between what was going on before Andrew Haines took over and what happened afterwards.

But the idea that you could have turned those full buffet coaches into a mini-buffet any more cheaply than making them into a open coach does not stack up.

To make a mini-buffet out of them, you would still have had to gut them completely and do lots of work on window apertures and body panelling. So no different from making a trailer coach out of them. Nor were there enough of them to create enough mini-buffet coaches.

 

[Dave1987]

Ow dear 5 car IET’s running on a bank holiday Friday absolutely rammed. Who thought it was a good idea to have 5 car sets again? Thought there was supposed to be loads more seats available with these things? I’m sure I was clearly told by certain people that there would be a considerable uplift in capacity when 5 car IET’s came in because they would always run around in pairs and only split where capacity wasn’t needed. Hmmmm that turned out to be complete rubbish....

 

[Mag_seven]

Ow dear 5 car IET’s running on a bank holiday Friday absolutely rammed. Who thought it was a good idea to have 5 car sets again? Thought there was supposed to be loads more seats available with these things? I’m sure I was clearly told by certain people that there would be a considerable uplift in capacity when 5 car IET’s came in because they would always run around in pairs and only split where capacity wasn’t needed. Hmmmm that turned out to be complete rubbish....

I can't see any IET short forms listed on GWR Journey Check - what service are you referring to?

 

[cactustwirly]

Ow dear 5 car IET’s running on a bank holiday Friday absolutely rammed. Who thought it was a good idea to have 5 car sets again? Thought there was supposed to be loads more seats available with these things? I’m sure I was clearly told by certain people that there would be a considerable uplift in capacity when 5 car IET’s came in because they would always run around in pairs and only split where capacity wasn’t needed. Hmmmm that turned out to be complete rubbish....

What services in particular are you talking about?

 

[PHILIPE]

I can't see any IET short forms listed on GWR Journey Check - what service are you referring to?

Don't take any notice of RTT. GWR are very slapdash in their publishing.

 

[43096]

You could probably write a book about various policy swings at FGW between what was going on before Andrew Haines took over and what happened afterwards.

But the idea that you could have turned those full buffet coaches into a mini-buffet any more cheaply than making them into a open coach does not stack up.

To make a mini-buffet out of them, you would still have had to gut them completely and do lots of work on window apertures and body panelling. So no different from making a trailer coach out of them. Nor were there enough of them to create enough mini-buffet coaches.

Your argument is totally illogical. FGW ended up modifying two vehicles (TS > TSMB and TRFB > TS) which must be more expensive than doing one vehicle (TRFB to TSMB).

 

[Clarence Yard]

The sequence was some years apart. The removal of the buffet cars was a Dean Finch move - he hated them. He could never get that you stuck the cost of them into the ticket price, not try to make them profitable on their own accord.

Enter Andrew Haines and the introduction of the mini-buffets, which at least mean’t you could offer a catering service on all sets, without caning the seating capacity. The design was a total nick from Greater Anglia.

Several years later and we have the too much first class, not enough standard issue. But there weren’t enough ordinary “day” coaches left to “convert and insert” so the redundant buffet cars had to go into the conversion mix.

Iirc, the time between the decision making process for the TSMB and then the other conversions was about 6-7 years.

 

[Peter Mugridge]

Had a ride on practically brand new 802111 yesterday between Swansea and Cardiff, everything was spotlessly clean. Had a ride back on 800309 and the windows were filthy, could just about see out of mine. Thats not the first time either, took 800026 last Saturday as part of a pair to Cardiff and the windows again were very dirty. Are Agility/Hitachi skimping on the external cleaning of these new trains, or are they just not getting enough time on depot for a thorough external clean?

I have noticed this about IET windows myself; I suspect they are probably just replying on the washing plants - which just move the dirt around - and aren't doing manual cleaning of the windows afterwards. The latter is the only way of getting windows properly clean.

 

[irish_rail]

Ow dear 5 car IET’s running on a bank holiday Friday absolutely rammed. Who thought it was a good idea to have 5 car sets again? Thought there was supposed to be loads more seats available with these things? I’m sure I was clearly told by certain people that there would be a considerable uplift in capacity when 5 car IET’s came in because they would always run around in pairs and only split where capacity wasn’t needed. Hmmmm that turned out to be complete rubbish....

I fear this kind of thing will become the new norm as rather than, say, god forbid cancelling one of the 4 an hour bristol trains if there are set shortages, one will no doubt be nicked from a ten car set on a service to somewhere like Penzance just to keep the PPM figures up , despite there only being a 15 minute wait for the next bristol.
In many ways I am starting to regret that GWR Wasn't split up as the more I look at it in the brave new world of IETs , I think pad to Penzance maybe would of been better off in a separate franchise with its own dedicated fleet. I hope I'm proved wrong and everything goes smoothly but I have my doubts....

 

[DannyMich2018]

Ow dear 5 car IET’s running on a bank holiday Friday absolutely rammed. Who thought it was a good idea to have 5 car sets again? Thought there was supposed to be loads more seats available with these things? I’m sure I was clearly told by certain people that there would be a considerable uplift in capacity when 5 car IET’s came in because they would always run around in pairs and only split where capacity wasn’t needed. Hmmmm that turned out to be complete rubbish....

There were too many 5-car units ordered-like 2/3 of the GW fleet are 5-car with only 35 9's against 57 5 cars. With 2 5-cars coupled together you've got two wasted cabs and no gangway between units for the passengers, guard or catering trolley, also despite their 26 metre length the first class driving vehicles have LESS seats than a Class 221 end first class driving vehicle!!!

 

[VT 390]

Is it to late to order any more 9 carriage units with the 5 carriage ones moving to other parts of the country?

 

[broadgage]

Is it to late to order any more 9 carriage units with the 5 carriage ones moving to other parts of the country?

I have no doubt that the builders of the IETs would be pleased to supply some more 9 car units, or hopefully 10 car units.
Who wants the 5 car units though ?
Whilst there are many routes that initially look suited to 5 car IETs instead of existing 2 car and 3 car DMUs, there are two problems.
Firstly clearing a route for IETs is expensive, and clearing secondary or diversionary routes adds yet more expense.
Secondly the complex leasing deal is very expensive, and will no doubt need re-negotiating and rendering EVEN MORE expensive if they are to be used elsewhere.

I have previously suggested ordering extra vehicles, so as to make all the 9 car units into 10 car, and a few of the 5 car units also into 10 car.
The 10 car sets with an improved interior would provide more seats and better facilities on the long distance or express services, with the car sets being useful for SOME portion working and for lightly used services.

 

[JonathanH]

Is it to late to order any more 9 carriage units with the 5 carriage ones moving to other parts of the country?

From what has previously been written in these threads yes. There isn't anywhere obvious to send the units and it isn't clear that the economics of a full 9-car fleet stack up with the proposed services.

 

[jimm]

The sequence was some years apart. The removal of the buffet cars was a Dean Finch move - he hated them. He could never get that you stuck the cost of them into the ticket price, not try to make them profitable on their own accord.

Enter Andrew Haines and the introduction of the mini-buffets, which at least mean’t you could offer a catering service on all sets, without caning the seating capacity. The design was a total nick from Greater Anglia.

Several years later and we have the too much first class, not enough standard issue. But there weren’t enough ordinary “day” coaches left to “convert and insert” so the redundant buffet cars had to go into the conversion mix.

Iirc, the time between the decision making process for the TSMB and then the other conversions was about 6-7 years.

The TSMB mini-buffets entered service in 2009-10. I think most were in use by February 2010.

The buffet car to TSO conversions were carried out by Wabtec at Kilmarnock at the same time as it refurbished the five Class 180s that came back to FGW, which would make it during 2012, so probably signed off late 2011 or early 2012.

Your argument is totally illogical. FGW ended up modifying two vehicles (TS > TSMB and TRFB > TS) which must be more expensive than doing one vehicle (TRFB to TSMB).

As Clarence Yard says, there was a gap between the two projects anyway and I doubt that creating a TSMB required the removal of the entire existing interior of the coach, back to bare metal, which was what had to happen to the kitchen-buffets - whatever they were being reconfigured as.

 

[Wychwood93]

Had a ride on practically brand new 802111 yesterday between Swansea and Cardiff, everything was spotlessly clean. Had a ride back on 800309 and the windows were filthy, could just about see out of mine. Thats not the first time either, took 800026 last Saturday as part of a pair to Cardiff and the windows again were very dirty. Are Agility/Hitachi skimping on the external cleaning of these new trains, or are they just not getting enough time on depot for a thorough external clean?

The 1129 from Swansea? I did Cardiff/Reading - no air-con - free water (in bottles) available in coach B. It was indeed clean, although a touch warm!

 

[Mikey C]

Rode on 800s between Paddington and Oxford today, the first a Hereford service the return leg starting at Oxford. Both were 9 car units ( completely rammed this morning despite the conductor announcing there were plenty of empty seats in the front 3 carriages which there weren't) and BOTH ran on diesel the whole way

 

[fgwrich]

Speaking of cleanliness. I wasn’t that impressed with the pair of 800s I had into Paddington tonight. I know that the seat covers are being changed (thank goodness!) but it really doesn’t leave you with a good impression when most of the interior is marked with dirt / stains and general scruffy-ness like this!

Incidentally both units were running on Diesel and the engine noise has become noticeably higher of late.

 

[Bletchleyite]

There were too many 5-car units ordered-like 2/3 of the GW fleet are 5-car with only 35 9's against 57 5 cars. With 2 5-cars coupled together you've got two wasted cabs and no gangway between units for the passengers, guard or catering trolley, also despite their 26 metre length the first class driving vehicles have LESS seats than a Class 221 end first class driving vehicle!!!

Yet VT manage not to short form their 2x221 services, and I have never, ever seen one set locked out.

So is it just that GWR are incompetent?

 

[Ethano92]

Speaking of cleanliness. I wasn’t that impressed with the pair of 800s I had into Paddington tonight. I know that the seat covers are being changed (thank goodness!) but it really doesn’t leave you with a good impression when most of the interior is marked with dirt / stains and general scruffy-ness like this!

Incidentally both units were running on Diesel and the engine noise has become noticeably higher of late.

I have to say I recently had a return trip from Paddington to Bristol TM on 802s which obviously all have moquette. The seats suddenly really didn't feel terrible, still hard but that doesnt matter on Bristol services, lighting wasn't harsh at all (although that's my first time on an IET in bright daylight) there weren't any stains to report or anything and although on the outward journey we were on diesel the whole way engine noise really wasn't very noticeable or at least wasn't bothering. Also nothing to report in terms of smell of the toilets throughout the train, there was no such smell.

Sure we're all getting used to the trains by now but the moquette really do give the trains a somewhat nicer feel than the old light grey clothed seats.

 

[trebor79]

Incidentally both units were running on Diesel and the engine noise has become noticeably higher of late.

I was pleasantly surprised at how unobtrusive the engine noise was. It wouldn't surprise me if the soundproofing became less effective over time though, that seems to be the way with trains and cars.

 

[SWRtrain_fan]

I went on an IET yesterday, with the new seat covers for the first time and I dont mind the old grey-cloth seat covers, but the new seat covers look a lot nicer and interesting.

 

[Mikey C]

I was pleasantly surprised at how unobtrusive the engine noise was. It wouldn't surprise me if the soundproofing became less effective over time though, that seems to be the way with trains and cars.

They are very unobtrusive, and (visually) pretty clean too judging from the lack of smoke.

But ridiculous when GWR are operating them in diesel mode under the wires, if nothing else surely this much affect timetabling seeing that they can only do 100 in diesel mode

 

[Thunderer]

The 1129 from Swansea? I did Cardiff/Reading - no air-con - free water (in bottles) available in coach B. It was indeed clean, although a touch warm!

Indeed it was the 11:29 from Swansea..my coach seemed to have working air con - I was at the front in First Class (just to get a slightly more comfortable seat and a bit of peace and quiet from the travelling Easter crowds)

 

[CC 72100]

But ridiculous when GWR are operating them in diesel mode under the wires, if nothing else surely this much affect timetabling seeing that they can only do 100 in diesel mode

Where did you hear this from? Whilst they perform better on electric, that is simply untrue. If that were the case, the entire GWML mainline timetable would have collapsed by now.