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GWR Class 800

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jimm

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Perhaps the extra 802s are being ordered to allow the Turbos to be cascaded from the Oxford-Paddington stoppers before the delayed Oxford-Didcot electrification is complete.

Why? The stoppers tend to largely empty out and refill at Didcot from either direction - so a break of journey there to change between a 387 and a Turbo shuttle for the Didcot-Oxford leg for a couple of years is not going to cause too much grief. Most stoppers already have extended pit stops at Didcot anyway, so the impact on journey times of the change would be near to non-existent.

The service could run as a stopper between Oxford and Reading, and then fast to Paddington. This service could be operated by 800s displaced by the extra 802s.

Some of the 387 services are likely to do just that anyway, same as happens with services worked by 16xs, 180s and peak HSTs now - just that the electrics will run to/from Didcot until 2019.

There would probably be demand for the 802s to be transfered to other routes once Oxford-Didcot electrification is complete and the service can transfer to EMU operation.

You seem to be forgetting that the 387s are now going to be covering Thames Valley services that were previously planned to be the domain of 365s, which leaves fewer 387s - even with the boost to their numbers - to do things like work Oxford fasts - which is where the extra AT300s come in.

And these extra AT300s will scarcely have arrived in GWR territory before the wiring to Oxford is completed in the spring of 2019. What would the point be of ordering them if they were going to become redundant there a matter of weeks after delivery?

There has been strong growth in passenger numbers, ahead of the national average, on the London-Oxford-Cotswold Line axis for quite some time, so allowing extra capacity to allow for that trend to continue makes sense and having extra 80x trains will also allow GWR to provide a consistent product on Oxford-London fasts, with an 800 or 802 on services that turn round at Oxford and those running to/from the Cotswold Line. Building on the move by GWR only this May to have more 180 and HST turns on the fasts that turn round at Oxford, instead of 166s.
 
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JamesRowden

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Why? The stoppers tend to largely empty out and refill at Didcot from either direction - so a break of journey there to change between a 387 and a Turbo shuttle for the Didcot-Oxford leg for a couple of years is not going to cause too much grief. Most stoppers already have extended pit stops at Didcot anyway, so the impact on journey times of the change would be near to non-existent.



Some of the 387 services are likely to do just that anyway, same as happens with services worked by 16xs, 180s and peak HSTs now - just that the electrics will run to/from Didcot until 2019.



You seem to be forgetting that the 387s are now going to be covering Thames Valley services that were previously planned to be the domain of 365s, which leaves fewer 387s - even with the boost to their numbers - to do things like work Oxford fasts - which is where the extra AT300s come in.

And these extra AT300s will scarcely have arrived in GWR territory before the wiring to Oxford is completed in the spring of 2019. What would the point be of ordering them if they were going to become redundant there a matter of weeks after delivery?

There has been strong growth in passenger numbers, ahead of the national average, on the London-Oxford-Cotswold Line axis for quite some time, so allowing extra capacity to allow for that trend to continue makes sense and having extra 80x trains will also allow GWR to provide a consistent product on Oxford-London fasts, with an 800 or 802 on services that turn round at Oxford and those running to/from the Cotswold Line. Building on the move by GWR only this May to have more 180 and HST turns on the fasts that turn round at Oxford, instead of 166s.

I would expect Oxford-Reading stoppers to be part of the franchise requirements.

The 2tph Peak Cotswold-Paddington service was part of the franchise extension and so why would the trains required have not have been included in the previous order?
 

jopsuk

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almost surprised there's not a move to order a few more and eliminate that residual HST fleet
 

D365

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almost surprised there's not a move to order a few more and eliminate that residual HST fleet

What residual HST fleet? GWR is only planning to retain a few sets on a very much interim basis.
 

Clarence Yard

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Perhaps the extra 802s are being ordered to allow the Turbos to be cascaded from the Oxford-Paddington stoppers before the delayed Oxford-Didcot electrification is complete.

The service could run as a stopper between Oxford and Reading, and then fast to Paddington. This service could be operated by 800s displaced by the extra 802s.

There would probably be demand for the 802s to be transfered to other routes once Oxford-Didcot electrification is complete and the service can transfer to EMU operation.

Absolutely not.

The 802 units are going on the fasts. The Didcot-Oxford-Banbury stoppers (with some peak Reading extensions) are currently planned to be 5 x Turbo diagrams.

The new units are currently planned to enable a partial switch round of the 80x fleet so that some 5 car units can be released for services such as the Bedwyns, if the reversing siding there gets extended. One of the new units has to replace the "18th" 9 car set as Agility are apparently now only going to supply 17 out of 21 daily.

As Oxford (& TV Branches) electrification now seems to be going backwards again, the 802 units could be on the fast Oxfords for quite a few years.
 

ainsworth74

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Worth remembering that Agility are being contracted to supply diagrams not trains so it's up to them to work out how they wish to meet the required diagrams.
 

IanXC

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Worth remembering that Agility are being contracted to supply diagrams not trains so it's up to them to work out how they wish to meet the required diagrams.

Quite. The penalty for not meeting the contracted diagrams must be significant for them to plan for such low availability.

I wonder how the contract has been amended to remove the 18th diagram? Perhaps this amendment took place at the same time as the bimode mix changes.
 

transmanche

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The penalty for not meeting the contracted diagrams must be significant for them to plan for such low availability.
It could simply be future planning; that they expect demand to rise and for the TOC to 'purchase' extra diagrams at some point, but from Agility's point-of-view it's cheaper to build the 'extra' vehicles now and have a common pool, rather than build them later.
 

Clarence Yard

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I wonder how the contract has been amended to remove the 18th diagram? Perhaps this amendment took place at the same time as the bimode mix changes.

Correct. The TARA maintenance regime is also more intrusive.
 

Clarence Yard

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TARA = Train Availability and Reliability Agreement.
MARA = Master Availability and Reliability Agreement.

The MARA is the overarching document and the TARA is the more detailed one.

These are the DfT/Agility IEP contract agreements that the TOC has to abide by.
 

Philip Phlopp

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Ah, OK, I'd got confused- so the HSTs are only being retained until the 802s are delivered yes?

No. Turbos from the Thames Valley routes, which will be late in moving west because of electrification delays.
 

The Ham

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I wasn't denying that the 29 are 802s, but past decisions don't necessarily apply to the future. I accept it is highly likely, but until it is in black and white somewhere how can the above post be treated as gospel?

from the link below:
http://www.globalrailnews.com/2016/08/03/additional-bi-mode-intercity-trains-for-great-western/

The 802s will all be manufactured by Hitachi Rail Italy in Pistoia, Tuscany.

Given that we've been told that they will be made in Italy, it is not too far a stretch to therefore assume that they will also be 802's. Although not beyond reasonable doubt, it is a good working assumption (especially as there would only be 7 of them, so would be up there as a contender for one of the smallest fleets of a separate class ever).

Anyway, what does it matter what the exact class number is we know the latest order is for 9 coach bi-modal AT300's and we all broadly know what that means in terms of the train that will turn up.
 

QueensCurve

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I agree. In the case of the GW changing the arrangement between Paddington and Didcot would probably not be worth the time, effort and expense - certainly since the flyovers at Reading have removed many of the conflicts. But any extension of four tracking west of Didcot to Swindon (ideally to Wootton Basset junction) and from Didcot to Oxford should use such an layout. Both these corridors need extra capacity - especially since the Class 80Xs will operate a more intensive service to Gloucester from Swindon and to Bristol and so the conflicts at Didcot will become more frequent even if the 80Xs can accelerate and get out of the way faster.

If no flyover were provided at Wooten Basset then the present pairing by use might prove more logical.

Incidentally, is any enhancement to turnout speed at Wooten Basset intended for the electrification?
 

WatcherZero

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Hitachi has today announced its activating another production line and hiring 150 more staff at Newton to ensure the capacity to deliver the Scotrail 385 order on time. It planned to employ 730 and it will now employ just under 900 at the plant.
 

GazK

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Are there any videos of the 800s pulling away using overheads as opposed to the Diesel engines? I've seen there are some videos of them running at speed drawing from OHLE but haven't been able to find any with them pulling away.
There won't be, because during the GW tests we were running on diesel from Reading to Tilehurst, and raising the pans at around 100mph. Same procedure on eastbound runs, but starting at Wantage Road and raising pans at Didcot.

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--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
If no flyover were provided at Wooten Basset then the present pairing by use might prove more logical.

Incidentally, is any enhancement to turnout speed at Wooten Basset intended for the electrification?
No.

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Harbornite

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Hitachi has today announced its activating another production line and hiring 150 more staff at Newton to ensure the capacity to deliver the Scotrail 385 order on time. It planned to employ 730 and it will now employ just under 900 at the plant.

Good news.
 

TheKnightWho

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How many production lines were there already?

Does this mean we're likely to see the class 385 additional orders, too?
 

WatcherZero

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How many production lines were there already?

Does this mean we're likely to see the class 385 additional orders, too?

I believe there were 3 active and they built the factory with space set aside for a fourth to be activated in future if required. If they want to increase production rate again they would have to expand facilities but there is the land available to do so.
 
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I am looking forward to the new trains arriving on the Cotswold Line. I was looking at the draft layouts at

https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/3469/iep-train-layouts.pdf

I know they are only draft. A couple of things came to mind. There seems to be no luggage storage in the driving first class carriage. Surely passengers won't want to leave luggage in another carriage. I can see the wheelchair space being used. Secondly the trolley storage is in the same area as a toilet. I am not squeamish but some train toilets.

Please, are these the final layouts?

Thank you, Stephen.


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Master29

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Yeah, I`ve seen those draft layouts. How true they will be is open to question given that on the draft itself it says subject to the ROC`s. There are no 8 car on any of the orders as far as I know but this is quite an old report.
 
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True. Perhaps we shall just have to wait and see. GWR don't seem to issue detailed seat plans. I will look forward to seeing one of the trains in Worcester. When they start public service I will try to a short trip to Hereford.

Best wishes, Stephen.


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