GWR Class 800

[Bletchleyite]

TBH I always thought they would be good units (really should be for that money), it's the Incredibly Expensive Procurement that has been the issue.

 

[ainsworth74]

TBH I always thought they would be good units (really should be for that money), it's the Incredibly Expensive Procurement that has been the issue.

Having now taken one for a spin I'd agree with this. I think the units themselves are going to be excellent (and I look forward to seeing what TPE and HT do with theirs interior wise as they aren't shackled by the DfT in quite the same way) for many years to come and will be very popular.

The main issue, by far, becomes the fact that the method of procurement chosen by the DfT has rendered the IEP units hideously expensive. I believe that those that have been procured by TOCs directly aren't all that much more expensive than a traditional unit?

 

[Oxfordblues]

Class 800s now being discussed on Jeremy Vine Show, Radio Two!

 

[Bletchleyite]

The main issue, by far, becomes the fact that the method of procurement chosen by the DfT has rendered the IEP units hideously expensive. I believe that those that have been procured by TOCs directly aren't all that much more expensive than a traditional unit?

I believe you're correct. So well-off Reading commuters will be subsidising the rest of us for many years to come? Maybe no bad thing

 

[F Great Eastern]

Can't say I'm very impressed, a very expensive procurement exercise and very modern looking outside and then I stepped on the train and honestly I was the most underwhelmed I've ever been by a new train, the colour scheme is dull and the bright green is horrible and the different colour tables to the back of the seat looks odd and the end of the carriages bulkhead/walls are horrible, I just had a feeling of "meh" the whole time I was on it. The PIS wasn't working, the air-con wasn't working and the hand-dryer in the toilet didn't work and the doors appeared slow to open.

Then I hopped off and got on a GWR HST which is far better train to sit in with a far better interior scheme, far better seating in standard class and a far better color scheme and generally far less drab and actually had a bit of character about it. I'm no massive loco hauled fan and find the MK4s hideous (800s are certainly better) and never been a massive MK3 fan either, but the GWR MK3 interior for me is better than the 800 without any question of a doubt.

The DFT ought to hang their head in shame for the amount of taxpayers money that they have wasted on what is a vanity project that cost way too much, they have no clue how to design proper interiors as witnessed by the 700s as well and honestly if you compare these to other trains in other countries flagship routes they're nothing special at all but no doubt the DFT takes any praise they will get from any corner directly whilst shifting any blame onto the TOC.

The nationalising the praise and privatising the blame agenda will no doubt continue.

 

[Joe Paxton]

I understood the overheight seats installed in GW HSTs, beyond requirements, like the safety notices all around, and the multiple safety announcements, were a particular personal thing of Moir Lockhead about safety, and now he has retired this is no longer an issue.

However, given that the GW had three major fatal HST accidents in recent times (Southall, Ladbroke Grove, Upton Nervet), they did have a particularly unlucky patch, which hopefully is not to be repeated.

That's interesting re Moir Lockhead and his personal influence on seating and the 'extra safety' approach.

 

[gsnedders]

The main issue, by far, becomes the fact that the method of procurement chosen by the DfT has rendered the IEP units hideously expensive. I believe that those that have been procured by TOCs directly aren't all that much more expensive than a traditional unit?

That's undoubtedly helped by the R&D all being amortized across the DfT order, as far as I'm aware. Hitachi bid what they did on the assumption they wouldn't get further orders, as I understand it.

 

[Taunton]

That's undoubtedly helped by the R&D all being amortized across the DfT order.

Was the "R&D" just fundamentally a case of taking the 395 design and sticking diesels under some of the floors. Same maximum speeds, same bodyshells, etc.

 

[squizzler]

Class 800s now being discussed on Jeremy Vine Show, Radio Two!

Call me a conspiracy theorist if you must, but I wonder if the "botched" launch was all done on purpose to generate extra publicity for the new trains and their capabilities? More people than previously did so now know the ins and outs of bi-mode technology thanks to the apparent failure of the first train on Monday to transition to electric at speed!

 

[physics34]

More hard seats??? When is someone gonna take a stand on this? When is a customer group gonna study and review this? We need independent research to make sure train seats are comfortable for all shapes and sizes for a variety of distances....

 

[spark001uk]

Erm.. not sure that's meant to happen! First day in use yesterday and the first seat I sit on isn't even attached to the base and falls onto the floor!
.

 

[F Great Eastern]

I sat on one seat and the base wasn't very sturdy as well, thought it was a one off, obviously not.

 

[pdeaves]

More hard seats??? When is someone gonna take a stand on this?

If you stand on them you will break them!

 

[samuelmorris]

Are these the units assembled in Japan or have any come from Newton Aycliffe? Not that it makes much difference but that's just a poor job of assembly & testing.

 

[physics34]

If you stand on them you will break them!

i knew someone would pick up on that loooooool

 

[F Great Eastern]

Are these the units assembled in Japan or have any come from Newton Aycliffe? Not that it makes much difference but that's just a poor job of assembly & testing.

Does it really matter?

At the end of the day these days building as much as possible in the UK is deemed far more important than build quality.

 

[samuelmorris]

Agreed, but if the units are coming out substandard, who isn't doing their job correctly? Is it the team assembling the pre-series units in Japan (it would surprise me given their usual attention to detail) or is it, more importantly, the facility that will be assembling the vast majority of the fleet? If mistakes are being made so so early, the source needs to be identified so they don't continue to be made when the bulk of the fleet are rolling out.
This of course is as attributable to those responsible for inspecting that the units are up to standard as it is those making the defects to begin with, if not moreso.

 

[Bletchleyite]

If you stand on them you will break them!

I know you're joking but in reality they do have to, er, stand up to that, as people do to reach the luggage rack.

 

[devonexpress]

Erm.. not sure that's meant to happen! First day in use yesterday and the first seat I sit on isn't even attached to the base and falls onto the floor!
.View attachment 35836

If the seats are similar to most aircraft ones it looks like the cushion has just undone form the Velcro, just should simply fit back on. You be surprised when you take away the cushions, how flimsy and nasty the frames are for aircraft and train seats.

 

[devonexpress]

The 0600 from Bristol didn’t stop to put the pan up. The pan didn’t go up and it wasn’t due to any driver error either. It was one of the many reasons those two sets got pulled on arrival but that was the one fault that could have been lived with as there was enough diesel in the sets to complete the diagram.

It did, there is a video on youtube and the guy has put commentary about what happened and why the train had to stop. Apart from the aircon issue most of it seems to be simple mistakes caused by train crews, which is to be expected when most have been driving 40 year old HSTs with completely different style/layout of controls.

 

[Filton Bank]

It did, there is a video on youtube and the guy has put commentary about what happened and why the train had to stop. Apart from the aircon issue most of it seems to be simple mistakes caused by train crews, which is to be expected when most have been driving 40 year old HSTs with completely different style/layout of controls.

The failure to switch from diesel to electric yesterday morning was nothing to do with an error by the train crew. Nor did the train stop to put the pan up, it stopped because the pan didn't go up on the move.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

The failure to switch from diesel to electric yesterday morning was nothing to do with an error by the train crew. Nor did the train stop to put the pan up, it stopped because the pan didn't go up on the move.

Interesting that the sets in use today appear to be the same ones as on Day 1.
So the faults don't seem to have required much effort to resolve, and that Hitachi have full confidence in the sets.

 

[Envoy]

My initial impression is that these are very good trains. Hitachi have done a wonderful job in isolating the diesel engines from the cabin. No windows are vibrating (like the Voyagers) and you can hardly hear the engines - even when climbing gradients. I think that the internal lighting excellent as is the ability to pull the blind just low enough to block out the sunshine - if desired.

I quite like the colour scheme and the subdued interior does not reflect in the windows. (The shiny cream seat backs on the Voyagers are terrible for reflecting in the windows). I found the seats a tad hard and think that the second class should have antimacassars as ‘dirty’ heads will make the seat tops grimy. Most seats are well aligned for the windows - except at the very end of the carriages where some seats just have the wall. I don’t think that anyone who has a reservation should be allocated these seats. However, perhaps those with laptops who wish to just look at a screen without daylight affecting it, could request such non window seats. I also question the amount of space given over for heavy baggage and wonder if the allocation is great enough? The seats with no view would be ideal for increasing bulky luggage capacity should that prove to be needed. The overhead rack can take the smaller carry-on cases that we have for the cheapskate airlines.

In the end cars of each set have lower floors as they do not have the diesel engines underneath. I found that because of this, the seats are set lower in relation to the windows - even though they are the same height off the floor as in the central carriages. Even though I am tall, I did not like the window being so high in relation to the seated position. Short people and kids will much prefer to be in the higher seats in the central carriages - as will I. Perhaps they could raise these seats a little bit further? Legroom is excellent in all seats.

The ‘disabled’ toilet is excellent though the ordinary toilet/washroom is rather smaller than I expected. Oddly, the order of water - soap - dryer is reverse in one compared to the other. To get the soap, you knock a little metal lever - hopefully with your elbow so as to not contaminate the lever. You then hold your hands under the water spout and water appears automatically before proceeding to hold your hands under the dryer. I think that this is excellent though perhaps a nice touch would have been the automatic issue of soap when hands are presented - as we have with the water. (I really do wonder how many people will knock the metal lever with their elbow)?

 

[Filton Bank]

Interesting that the sets in use today appear to be the same ones as on Day 1.
So the faults don't seem to have required much effort to resolve, and that Hitachi have full confidence in the sets.

Without wanting to say too much, let's just say it was a quick fix.

 

[highspeed990]

More hard seats??? When is someone gonna take a stand on this? When is a customer group gonna study and review this? We need independent research to make sure train seats are comfortable for all shapes and sizes for a variety of distances....

Unfortunately nowadays technology goes up and quality goes down. All new trains are like this to varying degrees, but I doubt the seats are as bad as the ones on the class 700, though some people like them.

 

[coppercapped]

That's undoubtedly helped by the R&D all being amortized across the DfT order, as far as I'm aware. Hitachi bid what they did on the assumption they wouldn't get further orders, as I understand it.

That's possibly part of the reason. More completely the reason the 'Train Service' payments are high for the trains to be operated under the Intercity Express Programme (IEP) compared to leasing charges paid by a TOC to a ROSCO for an equivalently complex train, such as the Class 390, are, in no particular order, due to:

• the design, prototyping and development costs having been funded by Hitachi since the contract was signed over five years ago.
• the working capital for the manufacture of the trains has been raised by Hitachi
• the costs of adapting or building the depots at Old Oak Common, Stoke Gifford and Swansea has been covered by Hitachi and John Laing (as Agility Trains)
• the 'Train Service' payments made to Agility Trains cover all the maintenance and cleaning of the sets when in service. The TOC pays only for staffing and fuel (it is not responsible for maintenance) - and possibly some consumables but little detail has been published about this aspect.

The DfT has made no progress payments to Hitachi at all, so Hitachi has to raise ALL the money. Hitachi has raised the money by a combination of issuing equity and borrowing. Even allowing for the current low rates of interest, the interest payable on the couple of billion already spent over the life of the contract mounts up. This is why the 'Total Train Service Provision' payments per diagram are so high. Yesterday was the first day that Agility Trains West could invoice the TOC for train operation, and therefore the DfT, in the more than five years since the contract was signed.

 

[ValleyLines142]

Currently on 1L76 from Cardiff, with 800006+800005. Remarkably impressed with the acceleration.

Seems that 1B40 is also a pair of 800s! Didn't know this!

 

[PudseyBearHST]

Currently on 1L76 from Cardiff, with 800006+800005. Remarkably impressed with the acceleration.

Seems that 1B40 is also a pair of 800s! Didn't know this!

I might be joining at Reading for the final leg

How busy is the train?

 

[PHILIPE]

Currently on 1L76 from Cardiff, with 800006+800005. Remarkably impressed with the acceleration.

Seems that 1B40 is also a pair of 800s! Didn't know this!

Surprised you didn't know Dan

www.railforums.co.uk/threads/gwr-intercity-express-train-iep-initial-diagrams.153431/

 

[ValleyLines142]

I might be joining at Reading for the final leg

How busy is the train?

Not massively. May have got busier post Bristol Parkway though. It's 10 coaches too.