• Our booking engine at tickets.railforums.co.uk (powered by TrainSplit) helps support the running of the forum with every ticket purchase! Find out more and ask any questions/give us feedback in this thread!

GWR Class 800

Status
Not open for further replies.

Bletchleyite

Veteran Member
Joined
20 Oct 2014
Messages
98,045
Location
"Marston Vale mafia"
Disagree. How many years will it take before the interior changes? 10?

That makes no significant difference to whether the actual train is any good.

I don't like the 3+2 seating in Class 350/2s (or indeed anywhere else), but it doesn't make it a fundamentally bad train[1]. It just needs the seats replacing.

[1] I *do* like that they are in a different livery so you can look down a 12-car set and decide where best to sit :)
 
Sponsor Post - registered members do not see these adverts; click here to register, or click here to log in
R

RailUK Forums

Antman

Established Member
Joined
3 May 2013
Messages
6,842
Just seen the 9 car Remembrance Sunday liveried (well, vinyled) unit (006 ?)

Took a second to work out what the silver stripes were...... Presumably it'll all come off after Sunday (though the Rainbow unit for Pride month is still running - not seen Paddington for a couple of days...)
 

43096

On Moderation
Joined
23 Nov 2015
Messages
15,360
That's not unfair when the only thing fundamentally wrong with it relates to very easily-changed aspects of the interior. It's like saying you won't buy a house because you don't like the sofa the current owner has in it or the wallpaper in the back bedroom.
The contract for them is fundamentally wrong, too, in terms of the cost of them and the restrictive aspects in terms of usage (which Clarence Yard has posted on in the past). Hitachi have also botched the introduction pretty badly of all its new trains in recent times - 800s, 802s and 385s.
 

broadgage

Member
Joined
11 Aug 2012
Messages
1,094
Location
Somerset
That's not unfair when the only thing fundamentally wrong with it relates to very easily-changed aspects of the interior. It's like saying you won't buy a house because you don't like the sofa the current owner has in it or the wallpaper in the back bedroom.

I only partially agree.
Many people dislike the seats, the colour scheme, the number and volume of the on board announcements, and other internal features.
These are relatively easy to change and hopefully will be changed. They are also subjective, some people like the seats, others like the colour scheme.
My objections are more fundamental.
Too many services are short formed. Advocates of the IETs will claim that such short formations are not "regular" nor "frequent" however whatever the terminology used, anyone who has had to stand to Cardiff or Bristol on a 5 car DMU will consider this to be a backward step over sitting on a proper intercity train.
This is not subjective, virtually no one considers a shorter train to be an improvement.
Secondly these new units have no buffet. Very few people consider "no buffet" to an improvement. A limited trolley service that might or might not reach ones seat is not a proper alternative.

Whilst the ability to lengthen 5 car units to full length 9 car is an "essential requirement" I doubt that anyone really expects this.
The ability to add a buffet is also an "essential requirement" but it seems unlikely that we will see a proper hot buffet. A microbuffet perhaps, otherwise known as a static trolley.

To return to the house buying analogy above, the IET is comparable to purchasing a house that is too small, and then wondering if it can be extended.

Too short and without buffet, are more fundamental objections than colour schemes.
 

northernbelle

Member
Joined
10 Oct 2018
Messages
680
I only partially agree.
Many people dislike the seats, the colour scheme, the number and volume of the on board announcements, and other internal features.
These are relatively easy to change and hopefully will be changed. They are also subjective, some people like the seats, others like the colour scheme.
My objections are more fundamental.
Too many services are short formed. Advocates of the IETs will claim that such short formations are not "regular" nor "frequent" however whatever the terminology used, anyone who has had to stand to Cardiff or Bristol on a 5 car DMU will consider this to be a backward step over sitting on a proper intercity train.
This is not subjective, virtually no one considers a shorter train to be an improvement.
Secondly these new units have no buffet. Very few people consider "no buffet" to an improvement. A limited trolley service that might or might not reach ones seat is not a proper alternative.

Whilst the ability to lengthen 5 car units to full length 9 car is an "essential requirement" I doubt that anyone really expects this.
The ability to add a buffet is also an "essential requirement" but it seems unlikely that we will see a proper hot buffet. A microbuffet perhaps, otherwise known as a static trolley.

To return to the house buying analogy above, the IET is comparable to purchasing a house that is too small, and then wondering if it can be extended.

Too short and without buffet, are more fundamental objections than colour schemes.

No, the buffet might be fundamental to you, but it isn't to the majority of passengers. There are people who disagree with its removal, but the fact is that the vast majority of customers simply don't care - if they did, hundreds of people would visit the buffet on each journey and no doubt its importance would have lead to it being incorporated into the IET design.

On-train catering tends to be used as a spur of the moment option rather than something the majority of people plan to use, perhaps with the exception of Pullman dining.
 

Geoff DC

Member
Joined
27 Jan 2018
Messages
233
Location
Penzance
The buffet issue could possibly have been sorted by specifying them for the 802s that are for the long distance routes, leaving trolley service to the much shorter commuter type routes between the Bristols & London
 

Master29

Established Member
Joined
19 Feb 2015
Messages
1,970
So much for the 802`s ability to cope with Dawlish. All services cancelled passing there this afternoon.
 
Joined
29 Nov 2016
Messages
290
The contract for them is fundamentally wrong, too, in terms of the cost of them and the restrictive aspects in terms of usage (which Clarence Yard has posted on in the past). Hitachi have also botched the introduction pretty badly of all its new trains in recent times - 800s, 802s and 385s.

The contract isn’t all one way, there are plenty of penalties, KPI’s, failures etc are all fairly expensive to Hitachi when they are invoked, especially after the bedding in period.
 

Class37.4

Member
Joined
8 Oct 2018
Messages
125
Did I find mk2 and mk3 coaches more comfortable than 390s of course not, do I like voyages compared to HST and loco hauled Mk2? No. But they have been here now for a number of years and it's case of like or lump it, same with the 800 like it or lump it and stop moaning about it, it's frankly tiresome.
 

Rail.Fan

Member
Joined
4 Nov 2015
Messages
39
Location
Kent
Grey, grey, grey, grey, and if you were bored of it more grey. And that lime green strip that's straight out of a 1990s bus.

Like it or not Grey is the most popular colour nowadays, Not just for Trains but for pretty much everything! I prefer it to boring White. If you want to survive the 21st Century you will have to get use to the colour Grey..
 

JN114

Established Member
Joined
28 Jun 2005
Messages
3,356
The buffet issue could possibly have been sorted by specifying them for the 802s that are for the long distance routes, leaving trolley service to the much shorter commuter type routes between the Bristols & London

No, it couldn’t. The condition for the DfT allowing GWR to purchase 802s (vs retain HSTs) was that the interior spec was identical.

GWR chose to accept those conditions, and order the 802 - that I’ll concede. But the current negative sentiment - which I’m still not convinced exists at anything remotely resembling the magnitude alluded to on this forum - wasn’t foreseen.
 

43096

On Moderation
Joined
23 Nov 2015
Messages
15,360
The contract isn’t all one way, there are plenty of penalties, KPI’s, failures etc are all fairly expensive to Hitachi when they are invoked, especially after the bedding in period.
It is pretty clear from what has been said that the contract is a bad deal for everyone except Agility Trains.
 

samuelmorris

Established Member
Joined
18 Jul 2013
Messages
5,121
Location
Brentwood, Essex
So much for the 802`s ability to cope with Dawlish. All services cancelled passing there this afternoon.
Not necessarily anything to do with 802. After the wash-away last year, I imagine this is for general safety rather than the risk of 802s suffering Voyager-esque water ingress. Plus don't forget not every service down there is 802-operated yet, as far as I'm aware.
 

cactustwirly

Established Member
Joined
10 Apr 2013
Messages
7,470
Location
UK
Not necessarily anything to do with 802. After the wash-away last year, I imagine this is for general safety rather than the risk of 802s suffering Voyager-esque water ingress. Plus don't forget not every service down there is 802-operated yet, as far as I'm aware.

Still a good few HSTs down there as well
 

Darandio

Established Member
Joined
24 Feb 2007
Messages
10,679
Location
Redcar
They are passing through, for now at least. CrossCountry aren't with Voyagers, they stopped going beyond Exeter at 3pm.

It is pretty hairy down there already and high tide isn't for another 2 1/2 hours yet.
 

northernbelle

Member
Joined
10 Oct 2018
Messages
680
802004 and 802008 should have passed through in the last few minutes. Not aware of them being terminated short or substituted.
 

FGW_DID

Established Member
Joined
23 Jun 2011
Messages
2,731
Location
81E
Too many services are short formed. Advocates of the IETs will claim that such short formations are not "regular" nor "frequent" however whatever the terminology used, anyone who has had to stand to Cardiff or Bristol on a 5 car DMU will consider this to be a backward step over sitting on a proper intercity train.

Example A:

I have to run 10 x 10 car trains, to do that I am provided 20 x 5 car units.

Oh No! Today they have only provided 19 and one of those has just failed! I now only have 18 units to use.

That’s ok I can just run 8 x10 cars and have a 5 car on the the remaining services. Not ideal but everybody gets a train from A - B.


Example B:

I have to run 10x 10 car trains, to do that I am provided with 10x 10 car units.

Oh No! Today they have only provided 9 and one of those has just failed! I now only have 8 units to use.

8 services run, two are cancelled. Broadgage Railways apologies for the obvious inconvenience that not having your train turn up has caused!


Do we really have to do this almost every other page?
 

Wilts Wanderer

Established Member
Joined
21 Nov 2016
Messages
2,504
Can confirm 802004 & 008 are currently passing Starcross working 1A93. Running 16' late but entirely due to the blanket 50mph limit west of Taunton. Not troubled by the heavy sea in the slightest, nice try.
 

Wilts Wanderer

Established Member
Joined
21 Nov 2016
Messages
2,504
Example A:

I have to run 10 x 10 car trains, to do that I am provided 20 x 5 car units.

Oh No! Today they have only provided 19 and one of those has just failed! I now only have 18 units to use.

That’s ok I can just run 8 x10 cars and have a 5 car on the the remaining services. Not ideal but everybody gets a train from A - B.


Example B:

I have to run 10x 10 car trains, to do that I am provided with 10x 10 car units.

Oh No! Today they have only provided 9 and one of those has just failed! I now only have 8 units to use.

8 services run, two are cancelled. Broadgage Railways apologies for the obvious inconvenience that not having your train turn up has caused!


Do we really have to do this almost every other page?

As with all railway companies run by armchair critics, I can guarantee that Broadgage Railways rolling stock never fails in traffic.
 

superalbs

Established Member
Joined
3 Jul 2014
Messages
2,485
Location
Exeter
Do we really have to do this almost every other page?
Example C:

I have to run 10 x 10 car trains, to do that I am provided 100 x 1 car units.

Oh No! Today they have only provided 99 and one of those has just failed! I now only have 98 units to use.

That’s OK, I can just run 9 x 10 cars and have a 9 car on the the remaining services. Not ideal, but everybody gets a train from A - B.
 

43096

On Moderation
Joined
23 Nov 2015
Messages
15,360
Example A:

I have to run 10 x 10 car trains, to do that I am provided 20 x 5 car units.

Oh No! Today they have only provided 19 and one of those has just failed! I now only have 18 units to use.

That’s ok I can just run 8 x10 cars and have a 5 car on the the remaining services. Not ideal but everybody gets a train from A - B.


Example B:

I have to run 10x 10 car trains, to do that I am provided with 10x 10 car units.

Oh No! Today they have only provided 9 and one of those has just failed! I now only have 8 units to use.

8 services run, two are cancelled. Broadgage Railways apologies for the obvious inconvenience that not having your train turn up has caused!


Do we really have to do this almost every other page?
Example D:

I am contractually committed to provide 20 x 5 car units for 10 x 10 diagrams and am totally responsible for fleet reliability and provision under a 27 year maintenance contract.

Oh no! One set has failed in traffic, but because I am a responsible service provider I have a diagrammed 21st set available every day because I realise that failures happen, so can swap out the failed set.

All services run, none are short formed. My customer is happy. Their customers are happy. I'm happy because I'm not being penalised.
 

broadgage

Member
Joined
11 Aug 2012
Messages
1,094
Location
Somerset
Or have a mixture of shorter trains and longer ones, but enough of these that virtually every service is full length, even with a reasonably foreseeable number of breakdowns, and even with the need for staff training.

Short formations should be a very rare event, a few dozen times a year at the most.
The prevailing attitude is that the present level of short formations is fine, is nothing to worry about, and likely to be the new normal so "better get used to it and stop moaning"
 

FGW_DID

Established Member
Joined
23 Jun 2011
Messages
2,731
Location
81E
Short formations should be a very rare event, a few dozen times a year at the most.

I quite agree.

The prevailing attitude is that the present level of short formations is fine, is nothing to worry about, and likely to be the new normal so "better get used to it and stop moaning"

No it’s not! You have been told countless times by the likes of myself, JN114 & Clarence Yard and others why the current level of shortforms are happening. You are obviously just choosing to completely ignore everything.

I can’t remember the last time I had to short form a 387 EMU formation, why? Because we have 45 units for 40 diagrams and are in charge of the fleet, we don’t have to worry about not being provided the requisite number of units for service.
 

F Great Eastern

Established Member
Joined
2 Apr 2009
Messages
3,591
Location
East Anglia
Short formations should be a very rare event, a few dozen times a year at the most.
The prevailing attitude is that the present level of short formations is fine, is nothing to worry about, and likely to be the new normal so "better get used to it and stop moaning"

This year on GA the numbers have gone into almost three figures a day, so you know, could be worse.
 

CMRail

Member
Joined
3 Sep 2018
Messages
163
Location
Gloucester
Example A:

I have to run 10 x 10 car trains, to do that I am provided 20 x 5 car units.

Oh No! Today they have only provided 19 and one of those has just failed! I now only have 18 units to use.

That’s ok I can just run 8 x10 cars and have a 5 car on the the remaining services. Not ideal but everybody gets a train from A - B.


Example B:

I have to run 10x 10 car trains, to do that I am provided with 10x 10 car units.

Oh No! Today they have only provided 9 and one of those has just failed! I now only have 8 units to use.

8 services run, two are cancelled. Broadgage Railways apologies for the obvious inconvenience that not having your train turn up has caused!


Do we really have to do this almost every other page?

As with all railway companies run by armchair critics, I can guarantee that Broadgage Railways rolling stock never fails in traffic.

Broadgauge Railways also has his “mix of shorter sets” with a massive buffet and two full first class coaches proving 40 members of staff.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Top