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GWR fleet procurement

Lurcheroo

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Why would it be worse than dealing with any other failed train on this section? In the same way battery trains can run out of power so can diesel trains run out of fuel and those operate over that section of route without regular failures.
I suppose it comes down to the fact that diesel trains can run hundreds, possibly a thousand miles without needing refuelling.
A train running on solely battery power can not. Now, trains take quite a lot of energy to get moving, the run from didcot is about 10 miles with potentially 3 stops plus signal stops.
I’m not sure how much battery capacity you need to ensure that it’s never a possibility that a unit runs out of power before getting to Oxford and back to the wires.
 
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GoneSouth

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BEMUs are good for 100+ miles so I don't think Didcot-Oxford would be a challenge.
Assuming there’s enough time to keep the battery topped up at turnaround. That brings me to another question, if a diesel is running late you can turn round and head back out in a couple of minutes. I guess that won’t be the case with batteries as they will probably need a top up. Isn’t this going to lead to more cancellations?

New cancellation code, not enough juice in the battery?
 

Snow1964

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I suppose it comes down to the fact that diesel trains can run hundreds, possibly a thousand miles without needing refuelling.
A train running on solely battery power can not. Now, trains take quite a lot of energy to get moving, the run from didcot is about 10 miles with potentially 3 stops plus signal stops.
I’m not sure how much battery capacity you need to ensure that it’s never a possibility that a unit runs out of power before getting to Oxford and back to the wires.
Don't forget every time slow down with a BEMU can use regenerative braking, whereas energy tends to be wasted as friction brake heat warming the atmosphere on a diesel unit.

The Thames valley lines are virtually flat, not going to be using energy climbing big hills either.

The other factor is there are better uses for the expensive bi-modes than trains terminating at Oxford (when got to keep few castle HSTs in service), and there are EMUs sitting around (eg 350/2) so in big picture the relatively short Didcot-Oxford electrification could be more cost effective than buying a fleet of BEMUs
 

anthony263

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Don't forget every time slow down with a BEMU can use regenerative braking, whereas energy tends to be wasted as friction brake heat warming the atmosphere on a diesel unit.

The Thames valley lines are virtually flat, not going to be using energy climbing big hills either.

The other factor is there are better uses for the expensive bi-modes than trains terminating at Oxford (when got to keep few castle HSTs in service), and there are EMUs sitting around (eg 350/2) so in big picture the relatively short Didcot-Oxford electrification could be more cost effective than buying a fleet of BEMUs
Porterbrook want to fit the 350/2's with batteries. Hopefully it works out better than the 769s
 

jimm

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Why would it be worse than dealing with any other failed train on this section? In the same way battery trains can run out of power so can diesel trains run out of fuel and those operate over that section of route without regular failures.
Where did I say it would be worse? Any failure between Oxford and Didcot causes an almighty mess, due to the frequency of trains. As opposed to the consequences of a battery set failing on the Henley branch, for example.

Installation of 25kv overhead there is a no brainer, both to eliminate lots of Turbo milage and allow IETs to keep their diesel engines off all the way between Oxford and Paddington, and as a step on the way to getting an electrified route (albeit needing dual-current traction) between Birmingham and the South Coast for passsengers and freight.

Battery electric units are a great idea for the GWR local services on the Thames Valley branches and to Gatwick and to Basingstoke (pending 25kv wiring between there and Reading as well) but not when existing GWR emus could perfectly well take over the Oxford-Didcot stopping duties the instant overhead wires are installed - and reinstate direct trains between Oxford and the stations between Didcot and Reading - without any need to install charging kit for battery units.

BEMUs are good for 100+ miles so I don't think Didcot-Oxford would be a challenge.
I was talking about what happens should a battery set fail/break down. Nothing to do with possible range on battery power.
 

HamworthyGoods

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I was talking about what happens should a battery set fail/break down. Nothing to do with possible range on battery power.

The same as any other train breakdown either fitters attendance or rescue by another train.

Where did I say it would be worse? Any failure between Oxford and Didcot causes an almighty mess, due to the frequency of trains. As opposed to the consequences of a battery set failing on the Henley branch, for example.

But why would a battery set be any more likely to fail than an AC EMU?

All trains have their challenges, and AC EMUs aren’t free of them, dewirements etc. I just don’t understand this logic that battery EMUs are only suitable for branch lines.
 

sp503

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I am not an engineer but I would assume that with a more complicated design / elements to the traction, the more prone to failures it is. It’s simple probability. Having a battery-powered option is going to involve a set of mechanism between the battery and the motor and a switch between getting power from overhead electrical lines and the battery, for instance, which is not needed / much simpler in a pure EMU train, and that mechanism has its chance to fail in addition to the components common to them and the EMUs. So theoretically a BEMU should be less reliable than a simple EMU, assuming other things being constant.
 

class ep-09

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I am not an engineer but I would assume that with a more complicated design / elements to the traction, the more prone to failures it is. It’s simple probability. Having a battery-powered option is going to involve a set of mechanism between the battery and the motor and a switch between getting power from overhead electrical lines and the battery, for instance, which is not needed / much simpler in a pure EMU train, and that mechanism has its chance to fail in addition to the components common to them and the EMUs. So theoretically a BEMU should be less reliable than a simple EMU, assuming other things being constant.
I think engineering side has been resolved - 800’s do switch between modes quite well, that is once under the wires driver selects electric mode and it takes less than a minute ( may be 20sec ) to switch . Same the other way .

Where did I say it would be worse? Any failure between Oxford and Didcot causes an almighty mess, due to the frequency of trains. As opposed to the consequences of a battery set failing on the Henley branch, for example.

Installation of 25kv overhead there is a no brainer, both to eliminate lots of Turbo milage and allow IETs to keep their diesel engines off all the way between Oxford and Paddington, and as a step on the way to getting an electrified route (albeit needing dual-current traction) between Birmingham and the South Coast for passsengers and freight.

Battery electric units are a great idea for the GWR local services on the Thames Valley branches and to Gatwick and to Basingstoke (pending 25kv wiring between there and Reading as well) but not when existing GWR emus could perfectly well take over the Oxford-Didcot stopping duties the instant overhead wires are installed - and reinstate direct trains between Oxford and the stations between Didcot and Reading - without any need to install charging kit for battery units.


I was talking about what happens should a battery set fail/break down. Nothing to do with possible range on battery power.
I can see how BEMU’s could replace Turbos between Didcot and Oxford without electrification of Oxford , in short to medium term.

All 387’s (Paddington to Didcot terminators) or traction that may be replacement of thereof in the future, would have to have battery packs fitted allowing to get from Didcot to Oxford and back to Didcot + lets say 2 hours of hotel power for the dwell times in the sidings .

That would also apply to 800’s with diesel engines removed for Paddington - Oxford fasts.

Batteries could be charged on the move as for majority of time trains would run under wires (plus dwell times at intermediate stations especially Paddington ) .
Charging on the move would remove need for charging these units at Oxford if staying less than , lets say, 2 hours.

For the trains that stay longer than 2 hours at Oxford, there are 2 solutions or combination of both to keep batteries charged:
- shore supply installed ( perhaps 2 lines in Down Sidings and 2 lines in Up Sidings ) , where trains staying over 2 hours but remaining in traffic would be plugged in.

Shote supply may be useful EWR units if they were to be stabled at Oxford too ( happy to be corrected).

or

- auxing off the units to preserve batteries charge .

Of course full electrification will be needed if “electrical spine” is ever to be achieved but before that , I think , pure electric units could be used between Padd and Oxford ( may be even Banbury ) .

Anything beyond Oxford on North Cotswold line will need bi-modes of course .
 
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jimm

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The same as any other train breakdown either fitters attendance or rescue by another train.



But why would a battery set be any more likely to fail than an AC EMU?

All trains have their challenges, and AC EMUs aren’t free of them, dewirements etc. I just don’t understand this logic that battery EMUs are only suitable for branch lines.
I think engineering side has been resolved - 800’s do switch between modes quite well, that is once under the wires driver selects electric mode and it takes less than a minute ( may be 20sec ) to switch . Same the other way .


I can see how BEMU’s could replace Turbos between Didcot and Oxford without electrification of Oxford , in short to medium term.

All 387’s (Paddington to Didcot terminators) or traction that may be replacement of thereof in the future, would have to have battery packs fitted allowing to get from Didcot to Oxford and back to Didcot + lets say 2 hours of hotel power for the dwell times in the sidings .

That would also apply to 800’s with diesel engines removed for Paddington - Oxford fasts.

Batteries could be charged on the move as for majority of time trains would run under wires (plus dwell times at intermediate stations especially Paddington ) .
Charging on the move would remove need for charging these units at Oxford if staying less than , lets say, 2 hours.

For the trains that stay longer than 2 hours at Oxford, there are 2 solutions or combination of both to keep batteries charged:
- shore supply installed ( perhaps 2 lines in Down Sidings and 2 lines in Up Sidings ) , where trains staying over 2 hours but remaining in traffic would be plugged in.

Shote supply may be useful EWR units if they were to be stabled at Oxford too ( happy to be corrected).

or

- auxing off the units to preserve batteries charge .

Of course full electrification will be needed if “electrical spine” is ever to be achieved but before that , I think , pure electric units could be used between Padd and Oxford ( may be even Banbury ) .

Anything beyond Oxford on North Cotswold line will need bi-modes of course .
At no point did I say that a battery set would be more likely to fail. I was suggesting that a very busy section of double track main line - which should of course have been electrified almost a decade ago, had Network Rail done proper advance planning and kept its costs under control - may not be the best place on the network to deploy battery technology.

It is clear from the Class 769 plan for Reading-Gatwick and the current Class 230 trial on the Greenford branch the sorts of places that GWR would most likely deploy battery-fitted trains.

Why would you build lots of units dragging round heavy battery packs when all you need to end diesel operation of GWR services between Oxford and Didcot is 25kv overhead and bog-standard emus from the existing fleet?

While battery technology may have moved on a bit in the past few years, the Class 379 used for the trial on the Harwich branch needed eight tonnes of batteries (making it about 5% heavier than a standard 25kv-only set) while the battery 777s for Merseyrail weigh six tonnes more than the standard third-rail version. And the sort of batteries needed don't come cheap and won't last anything like as long as the train itself.
 

Snow1964

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Although Hitachi hasn't done itself any favours with GWR over reliability. And of course sticking a big vibrating diesel is never going to help reliability or cracking stresses. Seems they have moved on, and now offering battery electric trains.


Article is hybrid intercity train in Southern Italy (and apparently has level boarding for those interested, it is split level)
 

Snow1964

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Thought I would do some crunching of latest quarterly ORR data (Jan-Mar), compared it to 5 years ago so anyone wondering if GWR need extra vehicles can see the official figures

table 1243 : train Km 2019 was 10.9m and 2024 is 11.3m (up 3.6%)
table 1253 : vehicle km 2019 was 68.92m and 2024 65.47m (down 5%)
means average GWR has been shortened from 6.32 carriages to 5.79 cars (8.4% shorter)

Now looking at passengers
table 1223 : journeys 2019 was 24.52m and 2024 is 20.32m (down 17.1%)
table 1233 : journey km 2019 was 1470m and 2024 is 1440m (down 2.0%)
so GWR passengers on average travelling 26.65% further
(guessing it is because lost short local Thames valley journeys to Elizabeth line)

GWR passenger km is 98% of pre-pandemic, but train km is only 95%
so logically trains 3% busier than same months Jan-March in 2019

GWR Has about 850 vehicles (excluding night stock) and assuming 3 castle HSTs
Therefore if trains are 3% busier, logically needs 26 extra vehicles just to return to 2019 levels of busyness.

Note that whilst passenger km is now at 98% of pre-pandemic, the transfer of chunk of passengers to Elizabeth line means must be operating at nearer 110% on other routes which explains the desperate need for extra stock
 
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Lurcheroo

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Thought I would do some crunching of latest quarterly ORR data (Jan-Mar), compared it to 5 years ago so anyone wondering if GWR need extra vehicles can see the official figures

table 1243 : train Km 2019 was 10.9m and 2024 is 11.3m (up 3.6%)
table 1253 : vehicle km 2019 was 68.92m and 2024 65.47m (down 5%)
means average GWR has been shortened from 6.32 carriages to 5.79 cars (8.4% shorter)

Now looking at passengers
table 1223 : journeys 2019 was 24.52m and 2024 is 20.32m (down 17.1%)
table 1233 : journey km 2019 was 1470m and 2024 is 1440m (down 2.0%)
so GWR passengers on average travelling 26.65% further
(guessing it is because lost short local Thames valley journeys to Elizabeth line)

GWR passenger km is 98% of pre-pandemic, but train km is only 95%
so logically trains 3% busier than same months Jan-March in 2019

GWR Has about 850 vehicles (excluding night stock) and assuming 3 castle HSTs
Therefore if trains are 3% busier, logically needs 26 extra vehicles just to return to 2019 levels of busyness.

Note that whilst passenger km is now at 98% of pre-pandemic, the transfer of chunk of passengers to Elizabeth line means must be operating at nearer 110% on other routes which explains the desperate need for extra stock
A great analysis. It will be interesting to see how the summer time compares.

Your last point is most interesting to me, I wonder if it’s possible to break it down by route If we would see some of the more western routes with much higher than 100% compared to pre-pandemic.
From what I see, even the IET’s into London are regularly overcrowded.
 

Snow1964

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A great analysis. It will be interesting to see how the summer time compares.

Your last point is most interesting to me, I wonder if it’s possible to break it down by route If we would see some of the more western routes with much higher than 100% compared to pre-pandemic.
From what I see, even the IET’s into London are regularly overcrowded.
GWR almost certainly have usage statistics by route or areas. Not aware of anything in public domain, although there are annual station usage figures (but these cover period 8-21 months earlier by the time they are published).

My hunch is the GWR 98% vs pre-pandemic is comfortably over 110% (allowing for Paddington-Reading local reclassification to Elizabeth line, and guessing that 20% of Elizabeth line usage was previously GWR local services).

Clearly there are local distortions in overall figures eg new Oakhampton services, extra local trains Bristol-Westbury etc. But if some lines were unchanged, suggests others might exceed 120% to get the average (allowing for Elizabeth line transfer)
 

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