GwR HSTs to be stood down

[FlybeDash8Q400]

I’ve been a reading through all the posts here. A few have said GWR will be short on units if the Castles go. What happened to that procurement of 30x 110mph 4 car EMU’s that GWR put out to tender earlier in the year? Could that be where the gaps are plugged in?

Shame to see the Castles go though. I was on them just last week as well. Hopefully there is a plan, and a good one too. I’m not hopeful though.

 

[skyhigh]

The Mark 4s are safe for at least the next two years, it’s cheaper to keep them than it is to end the lease early.

I don't think it is. If the lease was terminated, the maximum penalty payment would be the 2 years lease fees. Keep them, and you have to pay the 2 years lease, plus maintenance and exam costs. They also pay Northern for fleet support costs - e.g. the point of contact for crew in the event of technical issues is the Northern maintenance controller. I can easily see savings through getting rid of the Mk4s early with no replacement.

 

[fgwrich]

I’ve been a reading through all the posts here. A few have said GWR will be short on units if the Castles go. What happened to that procurement of 30x 110mph 4 car EMU’s that GWR put out to tender earlier in the year? Could that be where the gaps are plugged in?

Shame to see the Castles go though. I was on them just last week as well. Hopefully there is a plan, and a good one too. I’m not hopeful though.

As others have suggested, that was likely a toe in the water test to see if anything could be leased cheaper than GWRs current fleet of 387s, not to actually replace anything. In the end, it appears Porterbrook has made GWR a sensible lease offer and 30 387s appear to be staying with GWR….

… However, with 3 387s seen unbranded, and suggestions of the heading off to Great Northern, what actually happens remains to be seen 30 out of 33 to stay, 3 to leave?). But that’s for a different thread.

 

[skyhigh]

Hitachi have a long term maintenance contract for the 802s

Not the 802s. They are under a more traditional lease agreement.

 

[DanNCL]

Not the 802s. They are under a more traditional lease agreement.

They’re under a more traditional lease agreement than the 800s but maintenance for them is still contracted back to Hitachi.

 

[cactustwirly]

So what replaces the 802s that are working the HST diagrams.
The Intercity services are extremely busy, more capacity is needed on the London - Bristol/Cardiff corridor not less.

I don't care about the HSTs being replaced, but I'd rather it was done so it's not detrimental to Reading/Swindon passengers

 

[irish_rail]

So what replaces the 802s that are working the HST diagrams.
The Intercity services are extremely busy, more capacity is needed on the London - Bristol/Cardiff corridor not less.

I don't care about the HSTs being replaced, but I'd rather it was done so it's not detrimental to Reading/Swindon passengers

You may not care but the south west does. More capacity is needed on the Penzance Paddington route, more so than south Wales. But I guess the new plan involves all the 5 car 802s providing the Padd to PZ trains freeing up all the decent 9 cars for the precious M4 routes so I'm sure you'll be fine.

 

[cactustwirly]

You may not care but the south west does. More capacity is needed on the Penzance Paddington route, more so than south Wales. But I guess the new plan involves all the 5 car 802s providing the Padd to PZ trains freeing up all the decent 9 cars for the precious M4 routes so I'm sure you'll be fine.

Why do you say that? The south west is very seasonal and have adequate capacity.
The Bristol services are full and standing as far as Swindon, so a cut in capacity would make the railway useless if you can't physically board the train

 

[Benjwri]

As others have suggested, that was likely a toe in the water test to see if anything could be leased cheaper than GWRs current fleet of 387s, not to actually replace anything. In the end, it appears Porterbrook has made GWR a sensible lease offer and 30 387s appear to be staying with GWR….

Regardless 30 EMUs could only have replaced the 387s, with the only other possible route being the London to Cardiff hourly fast services, which wouldn't need anywhere near 30 trains, nor free up that many class 800s to make a difference to the Castle Class situation.

 

[lammergeier]

You may not care but the south west does. More capacity is needed on the Penzance Paddington route, more so than south Wales. But I guess the new plan involves all the 5 car 802s providing the Padd to PZ trains freeing up all the decent 9 cars for the precious M4 routes so I'm sure you'll be fine.

...and unless Laira keep maintaining the few XC sets or another maintainence base is found then I can see the XC sets going as well, potentially causing further capacity issues in the South West.

 

[FlybeDash8Q400]

Why do you say that? The south west is very seasonal and have adequate capacity.
The Bristol services are full and standing as far as Swindon, so a cut in capacity would make the railway useless if you can't physically board the train

Bizarre and counterproductive cuts are exactly the way things are at the minute. So if that’s full and standing, it really doesn’t matter anymore. Very few things are ‘untouchable’ compared to before.

There should be no cuts anywhere at a time where we want more people to use public transport and be able to have access to a reliable railway that suits the needs of the user post pandemic. However, there are going to be cuts and they will happen I’m afraid because that’s what the government wants - it’s profit over service in their eyes. The railway is not suffering from staff shortages anything like the bus industry is, but industrial relations are only getting worse, not better. We’ve seen 15 year old trains be scrapped, and 10 year old trains lie idle for months now, while the HST’s soldier on well into their 5th (nearly 6th) decade of service. That’s because those idle trains are electric, there’s no wires for them and more importantly they’re too expensive to run because the leasing company is charging a fortune for them to be leased.

Services are already being cut permanently, and the idea of a semi fast service being in existence isn’t going to last much longer. You’ll have more stops on more trains, longer journey times, probably a massive decrease in available seats, the number of trains running and also network connectivity. All of this also fuels job cuts. If there’s less trains running then less jobs are needed (apparently). Will the railway then make a profit? Who knows.

Somethings got to give in this whole mess, and it’s going to be the service I’m afraid. The reduction in service in the South West is just one example of many which is why these Castles are now going.

...and unless Laira keep maintaining the few XC sets or another maintainence base is found then I can see the XC sets going as well, potentially causing further capacity issues in the South West.

Could ScotRail not maintain these for XC at Haymarket depot in Edinburgh? Space is probably tight but ScotRail are looking at adding another depot somewhere which may free up space.

XC will find a solution for them if they are no longer to be maintained by Laira.

 

[Bikeman78]

So what replaces the 802s that are working the HST diagrams.
The Intercity services are extremely busy, more capacity is needed on the London - Bristol/Cardiff corridor not less.

I don't care about the HSTs being replaced, but I'd rather it was done so it's not detrimental to Reading/Swindon passengers

The cancellation of the fast Bristol trains will free up a few sets. They were tied in with some peak extras to Cardiff and Swansea which are not running. I've lost track of how the current timetable compares with December 2019. On the other hand, some sets are stopped for crack repairs. How many are stopped at once?

 

[tbtc]

Tory cuts for Tory austerity.

We are in agreement!

Lots of people are blaming First/ GWR here but this will be a government decision or at least one that they have approved and are happy with the reductions in frequency - but the nature of the railway these days is that the Government demand the cuts and people rush to blame the private firm who are contracted to deliver whatever level of service the government demands

All of the control but seemingly none of the blame, you can see why the Government are in no hurry to reform things (there’ll probably be a petition asking in a few minutes demanding that “First should be stripped of the franchise as these cuts are unacceptable”, from the same type of people who’d blame First for the weather/ temperature/ lack of daylight etc)

Not that long ago that the half hourly services through Cornwall were being complained about, how unsuited the 150s were to such long journeys, how bad it was that some smaller stations were losing their London trains (since these were being sped up, and local calls given to the Sprinter operated service), how inappropriate a five coach 802 was etc etc…

…now that the (Government’s) plan is to go back to full length London trains stopping pretty much everywhere (at the expense of any “Local trains for local people”), a lot of the same posters seem to be up in arms again..

 

[Snow1964]

Why do you say that? The south west is very seasonal and have adequate capacity.
The Bristol services are full and standing as far as Swindon, so a cut in capacity would make the railway useless if you can't physically board the train

So the problem is extra London-Swindon capacity is required.

Got to be careful what you ask for, but some 12car 387s (or 379s) to Swindon can fix that, and not having the IETs stop until after Swindon, which frees up IETs for longer services, to replace the HSTs. Wouldn’t then need so many IETs to London which would free up the paths for EMUs. Perhaps could even get 16car EMUs on few platforms.

This is just theory, but potentially highlighting local problems might give DfT ideas as a way to cut fleet overall. Its also possible to use spare IETs on services like Worcester-Frome if you want to free up turbos. But However you do it, aim is clearly to discontinue the expensive HSTs and use existing other trains.

 

[lammergeier]

.


Could ScotRail not maintain these for XC at Haymarket depot in Edinburgh? Space is probably right but ScotRail are looking at adding another depot somewhere which may free up space.

XC will find a solution for them if they are no longer to be maintained with Laira.

That would be the obvious solution if the will/money is there to make it work, which knowing the DfT it won't be. That or a curve ball like wherever Colas maintain theirs (Derby RTC?) although this is becoming very speculative now.

 

[FlybeDash8Q400]

So the problem is extra London-Swindon capacity is required.

Got to be careful what you ask for, but some 12car 387s (or 379s) to Swindon can fix that, and not having the IETs stop until after Swindon, which frees up IETs for longer services, to replace the HSTs. Wouldn’t then need so many IETs to London which would free up the paths for EMUs. Perhaps could even get 16car EMUs on few platforms.

This is just theory, but potentially highlighting local problems might give DfT ideas as a way to cut fleet overall. It’s also possible to use spare IETs on services like Worcester-Frome if you want to free up turbos. But However you do it, aim is clearly to discontinue the expensive HSTs and use existing other trains.

I completely agree. Whichever way you do it the HST’s are gone, and services will be cut to do it.

10 years ago DfT/GWR would’ve found a way to allow cascades to replace the HST’s. Now it’s just cuts. Therefore the fixed costs are down, and even a few additional pennies can be saved on top of that. Perfect for those interested in saving money.

 

[Benjwri]

So the problem is extra London-Swindon capacity is required.

Got to be careful what you ask for, but some 12car 387s (or 379s) to Swindon can fix that, and not having the IETs stop until after Swindon, which frees up IETs for longer services, to replace the HSTs. Wouldn’t then need so many IETs to London which would free up the paths for EMUs. Perhaps could even get 16car EMUs on few platforms.

I wouldn't say Swindon is where the capacity is needed, at least on the London - BTM trains. Trains are normally full and standing until at least Bath, if not the way to Bristol, I'd say usually the same amount get off as get on at Swindon, if not more getting on.

Running 12 car 387s to Swindon wouldn't free up any IETs, since no IETs terminate at Swindon, so short of terminating IETs at Swindon rather than London, you would have to run both services, which there aren't the paths for out of London regardless.

The only place I can see 387s helping is by taking over more Cardiff - London services, or by tagging 4 more coaches onto the ones they do run.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

The Axminster runs anyway to retain route knowledge which kept dwindling, so it may as well carry passengers and return a tiny bit of revenue to GWR, it also helps GWR drivers retain knowledge of braking points etc for the small stations which comes in handy for diversions.

As an aside, it came in very handy last night when SWR decided to abandon anything west of Axminster and couldn't source road transport, despite three units being trapped at Exeter.

GWR ran 2L92 to Honiton then a 2Z90 additional Honiton to Exeter calling all stations (except St James Park), much to the relief of some rather cold and wet people at Honiton!

Ahh okay, thanks for the info. Good to know that it is actually very useful after all then

 

[JonathanH]

Trains are normally full and standing until at least Bath, if not the way to Bristol, I'd say usually the same amount get off as get on at Swindon, if not more getting on.

Which trains are full and standing until at least Bath? That would be incredible given the capacity available. Is that due to passengers not distributing themselves throughout the train?

Are you saying that there are load factors in excess of 100% on a large number of services in normal running?

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

Which trains are full and standing until at least Bath? That would be incredible given the capacity available. Is that due to passengers not distributing themselves throughout the train?

Are you saying that there are load factors in excess of 100% on a large number of services in normal running?

I‘d imagine it’s predominantly the large number of Bristol and Swansea services that keep being shortformed and end up running with five carriages.

 

[Benjwri]

Which trains are full and standing until at least Bath? That would be incredible given the capacity available. Is that due to passengers not distributing themselves throughout the train?

Are you saying that there are load factors in excess of 100% on a large number of services in normal running?

To be fair the only 'real' full and standing services are the Sunday evening services that extend to Exeter, Plymouth and Taunton, with the 1800 Paddington to Penzance being particularly bad. However most trains to Bristol, especially at the weekend, are full and standing in the sense it's difficult to board because people don't move down the carriages, and you and up with people standing in the vestibules.

I‘d imagine it’s predominantly the large number of Bristol and Swansea services that keep being shortformed and end up running with five carriages.

As mentioned when a 5 car is thrown into the mix things are full and standing.

However these trains aren't full and standing from London, quite a lot of the traffic on them is picked up at and beyond Swindon, with people travelling to Bath and Bristol. Which I assume is going to get worse at least between Bristol and Bath, with the Cardiff services losing capacity. Nor will the area be getting it it's promised metro west frequency increase anymore I would have to guess.

 

[cactustwirly]

Which trains are full and standing until at least Bath? That would be incredible given the capacity available. Is that due to passengers not distributing themselves throughout the train?

Are you saying that there are load factors in excess of 100% on a large number of services in normal running?

That is exactly what is happening.
Not every train of course but still a large amount.

 

[heathrowrail]

I doubt this is even true as the same rumour has been chopped and changed for the last 2 years, with GWR having to deny it several times! We seem to be forgetting TFW will soon be ditching a load of 158s/150s but probably not until 2024.

 

[pompeyfan]

I’m really enjoying the “I don’t care if your service gets worse as long as mine stays the same”. Very much a case of I’m okay Jack.

It really is a bleak scene all over the Western route. The reduction in the formations on the Pompey - Cardiff, the Devon metro area and the Cornish mainline is a massive step back considering it sounds like these services actually generate revenue. If conditions get worse it’ll actually cost the DfT as more people will switch to their cars.

This Quasi-nationalisation really needs to be looked at, it’s good for no one and I genuinely don’t think this (or the abstract routes being pulled) would have happened under the (less than ideal) franchise model.

 

[HamworthyGoods]

I doubt this is even true as the same rumour has been chopped and changed for the last 2 years, with GWR having to deny it several times! We seem to be forgetting TFW will soon be ditching a load of 158s/150s but probably not until 2024.

When the Engineering Director of the Company travels to Laira to brief his staff in person the GWR HST fleet they maintain is being withdrawn why do you think it’s a rumour. Read the original source, It’s fact.

 

[DanNCL]

...and unless Laira keep maintaining the few XC sets or another maintainence base is found then I can see the XC sets going as well, potentially causing further capacity issues in the South West.

Could ScotRail not maintain these for XC at Haymarket depot in Edinburgh? Space is probably tight but ScotRail are looking at adding another depot somewhere which may free up space.

XC will find a solution for them if they are no longer to be maintained by Laira.

The only viable alternative for XC is Heaton - Haymarket is full, Neville Hill hasn’t got the capacity for them either and Hitachi have already evicted them from Craigentinny once. A reallocation to Heaton would require the diagrams to be completely rewritten for both the HST and Voyager fleets so is unlikely to happen. If the XC HSTs are forced out of Laira the almost certain outcome for them is withdrawal.

This Quasi-nationalisation really needs to be looked at, it’s good for no one and I genuinely don’t think this (or the abstract routes being pulled) would have happened under the (less than ideal) franchise model.

Maybe that’s the idea - make the alternative look even worse so that they can go back to franchising without it being further political suicide for them.

 

[Western Sunset]

From the sound of it, it appears that the Cardiff - Portsmouth route will become somewhat of a Cinderella line once again. Serving seven cities and umpteen universities, whenever I see the trains they are always well-loaded. Reducing formations seems counter-productive.

 

[amazon1675]

Crash-worthiness of the HSTs is also an issue I understand.The accident in Scotland did not show them in a good light.Were not the unions north of the border reluctant to use them after that tragedy? As for Portsmouth-Cardiff,the route has huge passenger potential but is sadly always a Cinderella route it seems.Take a look at weekend loadings...someone knows the stats,so why reduce the formations back to 3 cars? Removing the SWR services on part of this route was opposed strongly by user groups I recall.

 

[Trainbike46]

It is correct apparently.

Slightly over half the sets will be withdrawn in May 2023, the balance in December.

Is that because they plan for the 769s to enter service between those two points?

At the same time Laira is to take over full maintenance responsibility for the 802s.

Will Laira continue maintaining the XC HSTs? Or will those get withdrawn too?

Cardiff to Plymouth/Penzance gets split at Taunton/Plymouth. Portsmouth down to 3-cars to free up stock for the former section. Cornwall then goes back to hourly and the IETs make extra calls.

That appears to be the plan.

Been reported on two other forums and apparently was mentioned in a GWR fleet meeting today.

I really hope that isn't true, but that some extra stock comes in to fill the gap

 

[12LDA28C]

Yes, I mean the oldest will be forty-eight year old trains, for goodness' sake. Forty-eight! I'm a fully grown legal adult, and they're older than my mother.

Yawn. There are plenty of people in the UK who consider the HST the best train we have ever produced. The fact that you are not one of them counts for little. Personally I'd much rather ride on an HST than an IET. 48 years old or not. Or are you of the opinion that 'old' is automatically outdated, rubbish and not fit for purpose?