GwR HSTs to be stood down

[Ashley Hill]

There was a track circuit failure West of Plymouth

Track circuit failure at Hemerdon (east of Plymouth). Caused delays and cancellations first thing this morning and delays during the day.

 

[fgwrich]

It's been obvious since this plan was formulated that it was unachievable in reality. The IETs have never met their availability targets with any regularity since they were built and it's hard to see why that would change now, short of Hitachi having the proverbial "blinding light on the road to Damascus" moment. Add in the 802 fleet having more maintenance undertaken at Laira, which will no doubt precipitate the inevitable reliability dip while they get used to them and the whole thing has fiasco written all over it.

The problem is, and let’s face it, GWRs cascade plans since 2016 have been pretty much a failure. From casting far too much hope on the 769s to release the Turbos to releasing units such as the 153s with no replacement. They were lucky that the HSTs were readily available with the franchise and First Group owning a number, and Angel having no work lined up for the rest. Here we are in 2023, the 150s expected to prop up the West Country branches, HSTs expected to be replaced and IETs expected to cover both High Speed work to London and local services in the West Country. With additional services and fleet reliability still not great (eg 165 / 166s) Something will go wrong, and it won’t be pretty.

Speaking of, I’m not sure what happened earlier as I left Par for Newquay on a good old 150, but the CIS was claiming the 16:06 was both full and standing and no air conditioning available in the front set. The service, formed of 2 x IET according to RTT.

 

[irish_rail]

Trouble is i don't think there is appetite at the Dft to do anything about any of this. If the trains become short formed and overcrowded then tough luck. Its clear Daft wants to drive people off the railways now and they won't bat an eyelid next year when short forms and cancellations go up.

 

[davetheguard]

but the CIS was claiming the 16:06 was both full and standing and no air conditioning available in the front set. The service, formed of 2 x IET according to RTT.

but the CIS was claiming the 16:06 was both full and standing and no air conditioning available in the front set.

The "full and standing" may perhaps have something to do with the fact that there was a Exeter v Plymouth local football derby going on?

 

[irish_rail]

The "full and standing" may perhaps have something to do with the fact that there was a Exeter v Plymouth local football derby going on?

Unlikely. Not that many Argyle fans in west Cornwall. Passenger load tends to be very poorly distributed in my experience on the 10 car sets, with in the down direction the rear unit always wedged.

 

[Clarence Yard]

The problem is, and let’s face it, GWRs cascade plans since 2016 have been pretty much a failure. From casting far too much hope on the 769s to release the Turbos to releasing units such as the 153s with no replacement. They were lucky that the HSTs were readily available with the franchise and First Group owning a number, and Angel having no work lined up for the rest. Here we are in 2023, the 150s expected to prop up the West Country branches, HSTs expected to be replaced and IETs expected to cover both High Speed work to London and local services in the West Country. With additional services and fleet reliability still not great (eg 165 / 166s) Something will go wrong, and it won’t be pretty.

I think you have mixed up the plans.

Electrification was supposed to release Turbos to replace all the 150/1, 153 and 143 units. That got curtailed and was hopelessly late. The Turbo mod programme had to be stretched and that led to the 143 units being kept.

With not enough sets going west and the desire to increase services as well as formations and the impending doom for the 143 units, the 769 fleet was seen as a way of providing enough units as well as sorting out the HEx problem. The 150/0 units and 10 of the 150/2 units were due to go north as a result.

But the timing was off so the GTi scheme came into play and then the DfT wanted more services in the west, particularly the Bristol metro, so the GWR DA3 award had a number of GTi sets in and retention of those 150/2 sets, the DfT insisting that the 150/0 sets had to be sent north. The 769 introduction was going to send the entire 165/1 3 car fleet west to be part of that uplift in services.

The class 802 already is being maintained by Laira - they tend to do all of the 36 day exams there but serious work that needs the jacks will continue to be done elsewhere. What is ailing the Hitachi fleet at the moment is the amount of wheelset changes that are having to be done - nearly all on the outer vehicles which have been turned to their limit. It seems to be a mileage related issue.

 

[XCTurbostar]

I've seen several more reports today that during an ASLEF meeting, it was confirmed that four sets + one spare is to be retained until December 2024 owing to woeful IETs.

 

[HamworthyGoods]

I've seen several more reports today that during an ASLEF meeting, it was confirmed that four sets + one spare is to be retained until December 2024 owing to woeful IETs.

Don’t forget the lease on some of the HSTs was through to 2025 anyway, the original rundown plan was based around traincrew strategy and saving money not a fixed lease end like XC so it’s not so much about retention of the sets but postponing the withdrawal from traffic date.

The exact scope of the future use of GWR HSTs is still being worked on by the teams at GWR with December 2024 being the date currently being looked at. There are also issues with current West DMU availability and heavy maintenance due which is another factor into looking at retaining the HSTs in traffic for longer.

 

[michael74]

I've seen several more reports today that during an ASLEF meeting, it was confirmed that four sets + one spare is to be retained until December 2024 owing to woeful IETs.

It was confirmed by Simon Green on the all colleagues call last week.

 

[XCTurbostar]

Isn't Five a little low for GWR crew to retain traction knowledge?

 

[RPI]

Isn't Five a little low for GWR crew to retain traction knowledge?

Exeter sign up to Cardiff and down to Penzance, potentially only one depot needs to sign them.

 

[43096]

Exeter sign up to Cardiff and down to Penzance, potentially only one depot needs to sign them.

Do they sign Laira?

 

[Class91Joe]

Do we have any idea whether this extention will effect the reductions in May and September this year please?

 

[irish_rail]

Do they sign Laira?

You got there first! Plymouth are the rightful heirs to the HST throne not Exeter! Though Taunton to Cardiff would be problematic! Perhaps diagrams that just do Exeter to Penzance, and only Plymouth and PZ drivers then needed. However I rather suspect that looking at past decision making, it will all be about Exeter as usual and they will get to keep any HST work.

 

[HamworthyGoods]

You got there first! Plymouth are the rightful heirs to the HST throne not Exeter! Though Taunton to Cardiff would be problematic! Perhaps diagrams that just do Exeter to Penzance, and only Plymouth and PZ drivers then needed. However I rather suspect that looking at past decision making, it will all be about Exeter as usual and they will get to keep any HST work.

There are no local Exeter to Penzance workings, one of the biggest post Covid successes on GWR has been linking all the services together into Cardiff to Penzance, that is also the prelude to reopening Cullhampton and Wellington so carving that back up isn’t on the agenda, it was fiercely fought against for the HST withdrawal plan so now they are staying a bit longer isn’t going to jump back on the table. There is also very limited Cornish only work as the diagrams interwork.

The September plan for this year had it reducing to 3 diagrams one would assume it is those diagrams which carry on. Decisions about traction are usually led by business requirements not depot favouritism. The likelihood is Plymouth will need to retain knowledge for Laira Depot.

 

[Ashley Hill]

You got there first! Plymouth are the rightful heirs to the HST throne not Exeter! Though Taunton to Cardiff would be problematic

As Plymouth HSS lost Taunton to Bristol I don’t see how you could claim this. Exeter GWR drivers cover the Cardiff to Penzance route in its entirety. It’s only Laira that both Exeter HSS and GWR no longer sign and you’re welcome to those ECS shunts.

 

[fgwrich]

I've seen several more reports today that during an ASLEF meeting, it was confirmed that four sets + one spare is to be retained until December 2024 owing to woeful IETs.

I’m pleased to see it out in the open at last as it’s some of the plans I’ve been hearing over the last few weeks. A good, sensible decision at last.

Don’t forget the lease on some of the HSTs was through to 2025 anyway, the original rundown plan was based around traincrew strategy and saving money not a fixed lease end like XC so it’s not so much about retention of the sets but postponing the withdrawal from traffic date.

The exact scope of the future use of GWR HSTs is still being worked on by the teams at GWR with December 2024 being the date currently being looked at. There are also issues with current West DMU availability and heavy maintenance due which is another factor into looking at retaining the HSTs in traffic for longer.

Not so much the leases of course as it will be the first group and or franchise assets staying until the end. Angel ones will end up joining their classmates in Ely when their time comes (43005 already de-named in preparation for the handback), unless heavily stripped and that will be down to Angel to arrange disposal of. But it certainly made sense to retain a number for longer with the current pressures on both West Fleet DMUs and IET sets. And, on top of 207 & 216s overhauls and standardisation, the rest of the 150/2 fleet also has their C6s coming up to boot.

 

[irish_rail]

As Plymouth HSS lost Taunton to Bristol I don’t see how you could claim this. Exeter GWR drivers cover the Cardiff to Penzance route in its entirety. It’s only Laira that both Exeter HSS and GWR no longer sign and you’re welcome to those ECS shunts.

Not going to happen. Plymouth made it clear back in 2019 that ECS only wasn't acceptable on 2+4 HSTs. I've no doubt I, as a HSS driver will lose HSTs come December, but the west drivers at Plymouth most certainly need to retain them on the mainline.

 

[Snow1964]

The exact scope of the future use of GWR HSTs is still being worked on by the teams at GWR with December 2024 being the date currently being looked at. There are also issues with current West DMU availability and heavy maintenance due which is another factor into looking at retaining the HSTs in traffic for longer.

Clearly if plan is to keep 5 sets for 3 diagrams, have to wonder when the maintenance backlog of other types will end.

I know there are 2 more 165s to be refurbished, then 166s turn, but probably looking at 12-18 months before all the 166s will be done and available.

I think there is an IET working to Worcester than can probably swap to a 166 when refurbs done, but can they realistically get 2-4 more IETs in service to cover the remaining HST diagrams.

I know Treasury want to cut the railways spending, and there are parts of country with excess capacity, but I am not convinced that South West England has any slack in the fleet, ever since the 142s went without direct replacement.

 

[RPI]

Do they sign Laira?

Laira has "depot drivers" still doesn't it? Exeter and those would probably keep enough regular work between them.

 

[michael74]

It was confirmed by Simon Green on the all colleagues call last week.

I meant say 4 sets will be retained post Dec 2023 timetable and only those not due heavy maintenance/overhaul.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

I rather suspect that looking at past decision making, it will all be about Exeter as usual and they will get to keep any HST work.

Is there something here you’re hinting at having an issue with?

Clearly if plan is to keep 5 sets for 3 diagrams, have to wonder when the maintenance backlog of other types will end.

…

I know Treasury want to cut the railways spending, and there are parts of country with excess capacity, but I am not convinced that South West England has any slack in the fleet, ever since the 142s went without direct replacement.

Was it not four sets mentioned above?

Also, weren’t the 142s replaced by 150/1s, which in turn were replaced by the 166 cascade?

 

[REVUpminster]

Is there something here you’re hinting at having an issue with?


Was it not four sets mentioned above?

Also, weren’t the 142s replaced by 150/1s, which in turn were replaced by the 166 cascade?

142s and 150/1s were replaced by 150/2s that used to run down to Penzance replaced by the HSTs and 158s. I remember early morning going to Penzance from Totnes and a 2 car 150 came in. Exeter has all the GWR 150/2s and I think all the GWR 3 car 158s

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

142s and 150/1s were replaced by 150/2s that used to run down to Penzance replaced by the HSTs and 158s. I remember early morning going to Penzance from Totnes and a 2 car 150 came in. Exeter has all the GWR 150/2s and I think all the GWR 3 car 158s

150/1 and 150/2 both worked across Bristol and Devon/Cornwall routes. The 16x came down to replace all 150s in the Bristol area, the 150/2s could then ALL work in Devon/Cornwall as they were no longer needed in Bristol, and so the extra ones took over from 150/1s.

 

[irish_rail]

Laira has "depot drivers" still doesn't it? Exeter and those would probably keep enough regular work between them.

No chance, as the small pool of depot drivers cannot be ring fenced for HST moves that would clearly be detrimental to the core work of ferrying IETs to and from North Road. Staff resilience at somewhere like Laira is vital, must be sufficient drivers who can drive the HST sets.

 

[HamworthyGoods]

No chance, as the small pool of depot drivers cannot be ring fenced for HST moves that would clearly be detrimental to the core work of ferrying IETs to and from North Road. Staff resilience at somewhere like Laira is vital, must be sufficient drivers who can drive the HST sets.

You’re making a big assumption they will continue to be maintained at Laira, although likely has that actually been confirmed as Laira is taking on extra IET work?

 

[43096]

You’re making a big assumption they will continue to be maintained at Laira, although likely has that actually been confirmed as Laira is taking on extra IET work?

Who else has the competency to do anything above an A or B exam?

 

[XCTurbostar]

Was it not four sets mentioned above?

It was Four Sets + A Spare Set so I would assume 10 Powercars

 

[irish_rail]

You’re making a big assumption they will continue to be maintained at Laira, although likely has that actually been confirmed as Laira is taking on extra IET work?

An assumption perhaps but it would be madness now to move it to the Marsh or even Long Rock.

 

[HamworthyGoods]

Who else has the competency to do anything above an A or B exam?

Long Rock is one possibility.
I would be surprised if they don’t remain at Laira however it hasn’t actually been confirmed they will.