GWR IET Legionnaires Disease

[father_jack]

I couldn't find a GWR/800 class thread that's not under lock and key but worryingly, today it has been revealed that water samples from several units in the new GWR fleet have been found to have the above virus. The kitchens on these units have been locked down, however there are misgivings citing that someone could drink the water from the toilets, that the disease can be airborne through air-con or that the disease could be lingering in boiler urns.

 

[Entertexthere]

That's pretty concerning. Is it some sort of issue from where they source the water or is it located specifically within these units?

 

[themiller]

Some years ago, I attended an IOSH branch meeting where the Sellafield Ltd Legionella Champion addressed us. He told us that legionella is found everywhere so it's not worthwhile to just test for it. He said that the secret is to put in place precautions to keep it below 'coliform' (colony forming) concentrations. This would include storing water either hot (above 60 degreesC) or cold (below 20 degreesC) and cleaning routines.
http://www.hse.gov.uk/healthservices/legionella.htm gives HSE advice on the subject.

 

[Phlip]

I couldn't find a GWR/800 class thread that's not under lock and key but worryingly, today it has been revealed that water samples from several units in the new GWR fleet have been found to have the above virus. The kitchens on these units have been locked down, however there are misgivings citing that someone could drink the water from the toilets, that the disease can be airborne through air-con or that the disease could be lingering in boiler urns.

Hi - Microbiologist here.

It (Leigionella pneumophila) is a bacteria, not a virus. It’s also a pathogen of the lower respiratory tract, so it’s unlikely to cause a problem if drank (splashed water in the sink would be a bigger risk). The main risk (and a very typical route of infection) is aerosolised water vapour from the air-conditioning units.

The answer is improved maintenance and sanitation of the air-con and on board water supplies.

However - it seems that Hitachi/GWR have a system in place to sample, detect and take action to deal with it (which has worked). So I wouldn’t be unduly concerned... It’s not that uncommon in grand scheme.

 

[jimm]

I couldn't find a GWR/800 class thread that's not under lock and key but worryingly, today it has been revealed that water samples from several units in the new GWR fleet have been found to have the above virus. The kitchens on these units have been locked down, however there are misgivings citing that someone could drink the water from the toilets, that the disease can be airborne through air-con or that the disease could be lingering in boiler urns.

Could you provide a source for this information?

It's not a new phenomenon on trains.

ScotRail found Legionella in toilet tanks in 2011 during what appears to have been a round of routine testing across a number of train operators, where one in three of systems tested gave positive results.

Traces of legionella bacteria have been found in the toilet water tanks of two Scottish trains.
ScotRail confirmed it had detected the bacteria - linked to the deadly form of pneumonia Legionnaires' disease - after an inspection of 15 tanks.
Train operators across the UK analysed 150 systems for the bug, with one in three testing positive for legionella.
Traces of legionella bacteria have been found in the toilet water tanks of two Scottish trains.
ScotRail confirmed it had detected the bacteria - linked to the deadly form of pneumonia Legionnaires' disease - after an inspection of 15 tanks.
Train operators across the UK analysed 150 systems for the bug, with one in three testing positive for legionella.
Health Protection Agency (HPA) said the risk to the general population was considered extremely low.
A spokesman added: "The HPA is not aware of any studies linking legionella in railway vehicles to cases or outbreaks of Legionnaires' disease.
"The HPA is not aware of any cases of Legionnaires' disease associated with rail travel."

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-13593399

The ORR appears to issue regular guidance and updates to the industry on the subject of Legionella.

 

[Elecman]

As previously mentioned the Legionella bacteria are only a problem when the water is stored between 20 and 60 Celsius and then allowed to spray thus creating airborne droplets. The ussual maintenance regime should include regular draining of storage tanks and chlorination.

 

[Northhighland]

I couldn't find a GWR/800 class thread that's not under lock and key but worryingly, today it has been revealed that water samples from several units in the new GWR fleet have been found to have the above virus. The kitchens on these units have been locked down, however there are misgivings citing that someone could drink the water from the toilets, that the disease can be airborne through air-con or that the disease could be lingering in boiler urns.

Any place where water is over 60 degrees it instantly kills legionella bacteria.

Very unlikely to get legionnaires from drinking contaminated water. Main route is from exposure to aerosol.

Air con is possible but very unlikely in modern designed air con.

Probably in water storage tanks and easily killed with simple chlorination.

 

[33017]

Train toilet tanks are regularly tested for Legionella and very occasionally it is found. When that happens, the toilets are locked out of use until the tanks can be disinfected.

As stated, the only risk is if water is vaporised to a particular droplet size and then inhaled, something that is (according to experts) next to impossible in a railway environment and more a theoretical possibility.

There is no known case of anyone contracting the virus from a train.

 

[aleggatta]

as someone who has knowledge relating to Legionella and Pseudomonas, it is apparent that it is very easy to see big words and think big problems, when in reality the solutions are simple and manageable. It is also worth saying that at the depot I worked in, on the trains I worked on, we never tested for legionella in the toilet systems and we never chlorinated the toilet tanks (fresh or dirty water tanks). The toilet systems never aerated the water that was in the system so the risk of contamination was minimal, signage was always present that the water was not drinking water, and the constant extract fan running in the toilet provided a quick turnover of air in the cubicle.

 

[js1000]

Legionnaires is quite common actually. Keeping water either below 15 degrees or above 50 degrees can be commonly missed without a good inspection regime.

 

[Clarence Yard]

It wasn’t unknown in HST or LHCS Caterers (or the odd Postie) and if found, the car would be hooked out and dealt with. The on board staff would normally never know.

An IET, being unit stock, is a bit more visible to staff as you have to isolate the Kitchen for a day or two until the car can come in for a chlorination.

On the GWR fleet, the only problems that I know about this summer concerned the cl.802 fleet and a certain depot in the far south west, which was being targeted as the possible source of the dodgy water.

 

[Phlip]

Legionella is a fairly common environmental water borne bacterium (note, once again: Bacteria, not virus. In much the same way that trains are not aeroplanes). Legionnaires (the disease) is rare with about 4 cases per week reported nationally over the past year (figures published by Public Health England). To put that in context, there’s just under 100 cases of TB reported per week.