GWR - interviewed at station by inspector (no ticket)

[scrat15]

(TLDR, CONDENSED VERSION BELOW) Hi everyone here, this is my first post but have done a lot of reading on the forum. I just want to preface right now that you will read some very naive thinking, which was very much my thought processes at the time - I certainly know now, after all my research, that I was in the wrong to board without a ticket.

I am not a regular train user. Since Winter I have been working a job in Blackwater, renting a room locally, but returning home (to parents' place) in Guildford some weekends. Sometimes this has been done by car, sometimes train: GWR route between Blackwater and Chilworth.
Yesterday evening I got straight on a train at Blackwater without first buying a ticket. I assumed I would buy one off the guard as I had done this before when travelling this route some weeks before, when I needed to ask the guard first how far I could get towards Chilworth, given the Railway Improvement works happening en route to Gatwick. The guard had told me how far the service was running and sold me a ticket in a jovial manner. I recall then travelling again on a Friday a couple of weeks later when the ticket machine was out of service - and I seem to remember a guard walking past me (I was stood in the doorway with my bike) without asking for a ticket. I remember researching later on GWR's site to check specifics, and reading GWR TOCs Point 6: If you cannot produce a valid ticket for the class of accommodation and service you use, you will have to pay the appropriate fare or could face paying a penalty fare.

I say the above because in hindsight I think I got myself wrongly routinised into thinking it was perfectly fine to buy a ticket off a guard as a matter of course, and that fare evasion involved doing things like hiding in toilets or moving down a train to avoid guards (things I witnessed a lot in London when I was a regular SWT customer for uni).

Back to yesterday evening: I got asked for my ticket by someone I assumed was the guard. I then asked if I could buy a ticket from Blackwater to Chilworth. He then said he was an inspector and needed to see my ID. Stunned at the confrontation, I said (not rudely, but firmly with conviction) that GWR rules allowed for buying a ticket off a guard. I re-stated I wanted to buy a ticket. He continued with asking for ID, talking about a penalty fare. We got off at Guildford. On the platform, I argued (again calmly but firmly) that I believed I could buy a fare, and should not be asked for personal information. I said I wanted to get wifi to access the GWR site on my phone, and speak to ticket staff (I genuinely don't use mobile data, and do need wifi). Feeling at the time that my argument was not being addressed, and that I might be predatorily fined, I walked off to the main entrance (not ran) with him following. We got to the barriers and he insisted I could not buy a ticket or speak to others. He offered to wifi tether to give me online access, which I gratefully used. I spent a few mins pulling up the GWR TOCs, which I showed him. I repeated that I wanted to pay the appropriate fare.
At this point BTP officers joined us (it turned out there was a big sting operation happening there). The BTP officer involved himself quite a lot, and I found his explanations quite useful. He was a lot easier to speak with (the RPO had a thick accent I had some trouble following), and brought up info on his phone, in a nutshell explaining to me that GWR policy was superceded by Rail Byelaws.

The RPO then said that he was going to escalate the latter beyond a penalty, and that I would be reported (paraphrasing here). I got very worried at this escalation, as I was just starting to understand what the BTP officer was explaining about the rules. The BTP officer said to the RPO "just give him an FPN" (taken to mean penalty fare). The BTP officer walked away and at this point I was aware enough of the circumstances to realise I should accept a penalty - I gave my driver's license to the RPO. The RPO then cautioned me ("You do not have to say anything, but..."). I started to get concerned that this was odd for getting a penalty. His first two questions involved being on board without a ticket, and having means to pay. I answered appropriately, with yes and yes. I asked him what we were doing - he said he was reporting me for prosecution. I was very unhappy at this stage as I felt mislead, given what the BTP officer had said about getting an FPN. He stated that it was his call what to do, not the BTP officer's. He then asked some more questions, to which I said No Comment. I refused to sign the statement as at the time I was frustrated about not understanding the proceeding being undertaken.

He printed out a ticket for me to leave the station, but did not give me anything else. Some other info: body worn video was used by the RPO and BTP officer thoughout. I don't have any app / account for buying tickets, and tickets I have bought in the past have been by debit card. I have no history, before yesterday, of no ticket on a train, so am not prior known to GWR. My cognition speed these days is EXTREMELY slow, as I am currently going through a brutal cocktail mix of depression added to Dyspraxia - I am really bogged down in my ability to keep up with rapidly changing information, and I am so sick at the thought it took me so long at the station to finally realise that there was no legitimate cause to rely on a guard for ticket purchasing. Not sob-storying here, I am genuinely slow to deal with these days.


Having read the other threads here, I understand that I am likely awaiting notice from GWR prosecutions, and will be very cooperative and apologetic, seeking an out-of-court settlement. My life is on a knife edge at the moment as it is (I'm in education field, and am failing probation as a teacher due to struggles keeping up with workload), and would like to avoid court for this. After all my time worrying and researching (and understanding how everything works, fully) since yesterday I am totally on-board with paying whatever is required and genuinely reassuring GWR I would never be on board a train without a physical ticket again after digesting everything.

Later yesterday evening I emailed the prosecutions department before researching everything, and this forum. I have attached it (pars redacted) as images. I essentially gave the same circumstances I have shown you all in this post, but was expressing concern at not understanding what was happening while interviewed, thinking I was getting a penalty fare. At the end I asked for the opportunity to pay the 'FPN' instead of enter the realm of criminal prosecution (I hadn't yet understood the correct terminology, but then again the BTP officer was saying FPN a lot so it got stuck in my head!).

Such a long post... thank you so much if you have read this, and have any thoughts. I will monitor and update.
Really appreciate it guys


TLDR VERSION:

Confronted by RPO on train, had no ticket. Got interviewed under caution after spending quite a long time talking to RPO and BTP about the details of the rules. Gave ID to RPO thinking I was getting a penalty, didn't realise he was reporting for prosecution until halfway thru interview. Didn't sign the statement as was unhappy about feeling mislead in this respect. No paperwork given to me.

Understand I shouldn't have been on train without a ticket, and feel silly for dragging out the interaction for so long. No prior history of this. Guessing I'm waiting for a letter, aiming to do as other advice here suggests (sincerely apologise, state lessons learned, reassure won't happen again) and ask very politely for out of court settlement.

Dealing with hypertension / stress in the aftermath, so hoping to relieve some by sharing with the good people on this forum for further thoughts and suggestions.

Thanks

 

[John R]

I can't pretend to have read everything written - it's far too long, but in the spirit of your TLDR summary I would make the following points:-

Usually this should be relatively straightforward to resolve, albeit costing you a bit. However, it seems as though you were extremely uncooperative with railway staff who stopped you, which may make avoiding prosecution somewhat more tricky to achieve.

Blackwater is in a Penalty Fare zone, and there should be clear signage at the station that you need to have a ticket before boarding, which if you are a regular user I would imagine GWR would expect you to have seen.

You weren't issued a penalty fare because of the lack of cooperation I would suggest. One cannot be issued retrospectively, so the best you can hope for is to persuade GWR when it writes to you for an out of court settlement. You can do that by saying that you are sincerely sorry both for the lack of ticket and the manner in which you conducted yourself when stopped, will not board a train without a valid ticket again, and then you ask very politely for an out of court settlement.

Any subsequent letter to GWR needs to be much more concise and concentrate on the points raised in the previous paragraph. Their investigators won't have the time or inclination to read the length that you have written. If you come back to us when you get a letter from them, you can post a draft response here, which experts will then review.

And in the meantime, make sure you have a ticket before you even set foot on a train - and if you buy online, make sure the transaction has completed before boarding.

 

[scrat15]

Thanks John for your reply. Given the lack of immediate cooperation, would you suggest in this case going with legal assistance early, pre-letter?

 

[John R]

No, there’s no benefit in that. Wait and see what their letter says first.

 

[Alfonso]

Hi Scrat, it can be very scary being in this situation, but you are dealing with a big organisation that is driven by systems, and trying to step out of the system and swim against the current invariably causes problems...so stop. wait for the letter or email from the railway which will have a reference number and then send a reply following the advice on here. Engaging a lawyer is unlikely to add anything other than expense in this seemingly simple case. Trying to engage with the railway company before they have engaged with you is pointless and counter productive

 

[scrat15]

Thank you John and Alfonso. I have gained much perspective. I certainly aim to be super cooperative

 

[Pushpit]

Understand I shouldn't have been on train without a ticket. No prior history of this. Guessing I'm waiting for a letter, aiming to do as other advice here suggests (sincerely apologise, state lessons learned, reassure won't happen again) and seek out of court settlement.

Dealing with hypertension / stress in the aftermath, so hoping to relieve some by sharing with the good people on this forum for further thoughts and suggestions.

Welcome to the forum, and first off, I know it doesn't work saying this, but I feel duty bound to point out that you are unlikely to be prosecuted, despite what you feel and what the RPO probably thinks. And though you need to pay attention to the next stages, it won't actually be that serious for you.

It's not actually a good idea being pro-active, the reason being this happens to dozens, perhaps hundreds of people every day, and GWR won't easily be able to process a bottom up communication - it's all top down. Regardless, GWR is one of the best companies to deal with, and will usually be very reasonable here. As you've been around the forum, the classic, tried, tested route for you is to wait for GWR to contact you and work off their letters. By all means use this forum as a sounding board. The only problem I see is that GWR are not that fast with processing cases like this, and given your medical facts I can see that could cause a problem. No need to answer this here, but if you are under GP or other clinical support, you may want to talk this over with your clinician - it's the sort of thing where a change to medication may be helpful. I would seek that out sooner rather than later, and it may be useful to get something documented at a later stage. Also make sure your driver's license address can receive postal communications for you.

This will be sorted out, yes you have blundered somewhat here, but it's all part of life, it will never happen to you again. It is worth thinking through how you can make this journey in the future with a little more planning, whether by using apps or other techniques for setting advance planning up. Stress is an awkward companion - you need it, until you don't. It will be fine in the end.

 

[scrat15]

Hi Pushpit, thanks very much for your input there. It has put me in a better frame of mind

 

[WesternLancer]

The extent to which the op didn’t co operate, having read their post, isn’t significant enough to make me think an out of court settlement won’t be achieved if the subsequent written response is co operative as the op intends it to be.

Just get your draft response checked here before sending.

Also have a look at the GWR revenue protection policy pdf copy on their website for more background.

https://www.gwr.com/-/media/gwr-sc-website/files/revenue-protection-policy/GWR-Revenue-Protection-Policy-January-2023.pdf

@scrat15 - have you had a letter from GWR yet?

In terms of your draft response uploaded I agree that it would be good if you can cut down the length of your response whilst making it clear that you misunderstood the rules have been able to purchase tickets on board on previous journeys on the route but now understand this is against the rules, and including a phrase like 'it was never my intention to deliberately avoid paying a fare for train travel' assuming this is true (ie never lie to them)

 

[scrat15]

Hi Lancer thanks for adding your thoughts, and I'm very appreciative of the time everyone has given me here. Yes I had a good look at that PDF and other related GWR docs on Fri eve after the incident.

Fri eve was the event, and I today received a pleasant email from GWR prosecutions in response to the one I sent Fri eve immediately after the event (which I included as images in my OP). I have attached the (redacted) email here (please let me know if you think I should edit and remove it). The reply mentions a postcode, but in my original email I only gave my name and DOB (hoping they could associate my email with the case once started).

It was very relieving to get such a quick and pleasant response, email wise, and I would like to respond ASAP to acknowledge, and assure of my intentions to settle with GWR with genuine assurances, lessons learned and apologies soon (in effect, an early version of what I would provide formally later in response to a letter). But thought I might see your interpretations of the email content here first as, as Pushpit said, I do have a habit of blundering. I just wondered thought if this email exchange might be a nice early way of letting GWR know of my willingness to financially compensate them ASAP, potentially prioritising my letter issuing? Perhaps wishful thinking. Also wondering whether, in a response, I could provide my address in order to give them more info to link this email exchange to my case (once started) - a driving license is what the RPO used to report.

 

[WesternLancer]

Fri eve was the event, and I today received a pleasant email from GWR prosecutions in response to the one I sent Fri eve immediately after the event (which I included as images in my OP). I have attached the (redacted) email here (please let me know if you think I should edit and remove it). The reply mentions a postcode, but in my original email I only gave my name and DOB (hoping they could associate my email with the case once started).

I suspect this is just a standard response and in that text it mentions a postcode and no one has amended the standard text sent to you

My take is that this reply from GWR is essentially saying your case is not on their system and it might be 6-8 weeks before it is.

I would suggest that you don't need to reply further to them, but you should wait until they write to you about it.

Depending on what that says you may then have to write to them again as you can't 100% rely on what you sent them after the incident on Friday to be matched up if this takes 6 or so weeks to get on their systems. But for now it is best to wait and see what they say to you when they write to you again in due course.

When that happens it might be best to get advice from here before you reply.

You need to be regularly checking for hard copy post, e-mails and spam over the coming weeks so as not to miss any communication from them.

I think you have done a good job in preparing yourself on what to expect.

 

[scrat15]

That's all understood and thanks for looking through that. I'll hold fire on a reply. I'm living in a rented room still for the next 2 weeks, but will be visiting parents (postal address) every weekend. I haven't told my parents about the incident as I became very embarrassed. That means if a letter arrived on a monday, it would not be seen by me until a friday.

Perhaps that is ok just for the next 2 weeks? I'll be based back home with them full-time afterwards, as that'll be me done at the teaching job - I had to hand in my notice as my cognition is getting so slow I can't keep up with managing 30 students in the moment, and it is taking its toll.

I'll make sure to keep the paper tickets if I travel by train, for evidence of goodwill if needed later (always thrown them in recycling when arriving at destination station in past, unfortunately).

 

[WesternLancer]

That's all understood and thanks for looking through that. I'll hold fire on a reply. I'm living in a rented room still for the next 2 weeks, but will be visiting parents (postal address) every weekend. I haven't told my parents about the incident as I became very embarrassed. That means if a letter arrived on a monday, it would not be seen by me until a friday.

Perhaps that is ok just for the next 2 weeks? I'll be based back home with them full-time afterwards, as that'll be me done at the teaching job - I had to hand in my notice as my cognition is getting so slow I can't keep up with managing 30 students in the moment, and it is taking its toll.

I'll make sure to keep the paper tickets if I travel by train, for evidence of goodwill if needed later (always thrown them in recycling when arriving at destination station in past, unfortunately).

sounds like you will be able to get your post OK - they give you a decent window of time to reply (at least 14 days IIRC).

I don't think you should be embarrassed about it - lots of people think they can buy tickets on the train because in the past this was common, and even now many guards are happy to sell them - so this creates confusion amongst passengers and we see it often on the forum. Up to you if you think it best to tell your parents or not but chances are they would want to support you in resolving things.

Good luck with it all - you'll get the help you need from people here.

 

[FenMan]

Blackwater is in a Penalty Fare zone, and there should be clear signage at the station that you need to have a ticket before boarding, which if you are a regular user I would imagine GWR would expect you to have seen.

Blackwater is my home station. The Penalty Fare signage is clear.

There is history of paying on the train on this line, going back to the days when internet purchases weren't a thing and the old (and unreliable) ticket machines were in place, but that hasn't been the case for a while now.

 

[Hadders]

Just to add to what others have said.

Do not send any further emails or make contact with GWR about the case until they have written to you. As you've found out they have not been able to match your case up with the records so there was little point in sending it to them. The other reason I always advise waiting until you receive a letter before saying anything to them is because you don't know what they are going to ask and there is a risk that you will incriminate yourself by volunteering information you don't need to.

On a more general point you are required to possess a valid ticket for you journey before you board the train, where facilities to purchase the ticket you require are availavle at the station where you start your journey. Such facilities include an open ticket office or ticket vending machine.

Base don what you've told us you didn't possess a ticket when you boarded the train which is a criinal offence and GWR are entitled to send the case to the Magistrates Court if they want to. Normally, GWR will offer an out of court to people who co-operate with their investigation as long as they haven't come to their attention before. It sounds as though there was an altercation with staff which will probably make obtaining a settlement more difficult. You'll need to see what they say in the letter they send to you and make sure you send an appropriate reply. Forum members can assist in proof reading your reply if, when it arrives, you post a redacted copy of GWR's letter along with your draft reply in this thread.