GWR refusing to refund on board 1st class upgrade

[Wiganlad]

I travelled on the 1010 from St Austell (SAU) to Reading (RDG) on the 5th April - as the train was busy we decided to upgrade onboard to 1st class as it was busy, half way through the journey the Train Manager advised that they were decomissioning 1st class and was advised that we would get a refund if we applied for it.

So requested refund from GWR and they asked for a copy of our ticket and this is were it gets complicated is that we had a ticket from SAU to Birmingham International (BHI) and due to XC being on strike the only way to get to Birmingham was via RDG - so they have said we did not have a ticket for that train and they can only refund on proof that we were on that train.

Can GWR not see from the excess ticket that we were in actual fact on that train?

 

[Tazi Hupefi]

I travelled on the 1010 from SAU to RDG on the 5th April - as the train was busy we decided to upgrade onboard to 1st class as it was busy, half way through the journey the Train Manager advised that they were decomissioning 1st class and was advised that we would get a refund if we applied for it.

So requested refund from GWR and they asked for a copy of our ticket and this is were it gets complicated is that we had a ticket from SAU to BHI and due to XC being on strike the only way to get to Birmingham was via RDG - so they have said we did not have a ticket for that train and they can only refund on proof that we were on that train.

Can GWR not see from the excess ticket that we were in actual fact on that train?

More information is needed, but you wouldn't be entitled to a full refund of the first class element.

You need to tell the forum precisely at what point you believe the train was declassified, as presumably you were happily sat in (definitely) first class accomodation up to that point and therefore payment is required.

It may well be that your original ticket(s) were not valid in the first place hence more info is needed.

I'm assuming you each paid £25 for a GWR Weekend First Upgrade from St Austell to Reading.

If the train was declassified at, say, Taunton, the upgrade from St Austell to Taunton is £15 - so you could potentially be due £10.

 

[Deerfold]

I'm assuming you each paid £25 for a GWR Weekend First Upgrade from St Austell to Reading.

If the train was declassified at, say, Taunton, the upgrade from St Austell to Taunton is £15 - so you could potentially be due £10.

However, someone might be happy to pay £25 to Reading, but not £15 just to Taunton, especially if their aim is to avoid a busy carriage as the train fills up.

 

[Wiganlad]

More information is needed, but you wouldn't be entitled to a full refund of the first class element.

You need to tell the forum precisely at what point you believe the train was declassified, as presumably you were happily sat in (definitely) first class accomodation up to that point and therefore payment is required.

It may well be that your original ticket(s) were not valid in the first place hence more info is needed.

I'm assuming you each paid £25 for a GWR Weekend First Upgrade from St Austell to Reading.

If the train was declassified at, say, Taunton, the upgrade from St Austell to Taunton is £15 - so you could potentially be due £10.

We paid £69.40 each to upgrade from SAU to RDG, dont understan where the train manager got that price from as we did not hold a ticket from SAU to RDG. The original ticket was SAU to WSM then WSM to Cheltenham then a Cheltenham to BHI ticket.

However, someone might be happy to pay £25 to Reading, but not £15 just to Taunton, especially if their aim is to avoid a busy carriage as the train fills up.

We paid £69.40 each as it was a Friday.

More information is needed, but you wouldn't be entitled to a full refund of the first class element.

You need to tell the forum precisely at what point you believe the train was declassified, as presumably you were happily sat in (definitely) first class accomodation up to that point and therefore payment is required.

It may well be that your original ticket(s) were not valid in the first place hence more info is needed.

I'm assuming you each paid £25 for a GWR Weekend First Upgrade from St Austell to Reading.

If the train was declassified at, say, Taunton, the upgrade from St Austell to Taunton is £15 - so you could potentially be due £10.

It was a Friday

 

[Tazi Hupefi]

Ok, apologies for thinking it was a weekend.

I can see why this is a mess now.

You are not ordinarly entitled, or able, to an excess fare in the way it was issued, as your original tickets did not cover the journey you actually made, except that it may have been (either officially or unofficially) accepted because of the strike action.

If you post full details of what tickets you did actually hold, price, ticket type, Railcard etc, it would be helpful.

Also let us know at what exact point you believe the train became declassified.

Although this calculation shouldn't really be done in your circumstance, and assuming no Railcard, I'd have calculated your excess fare as:

£224.40 (1st Class St. Austell to Reading) then minus either £67.50, £98.40 or £159.50 depending on what type of ticket (Anytime, Off Peak, Super Off Peak) that you originally had.

£224.40-£159.50 is £64.90 (which is very similar to what you paid, are you sure it was actually £69.40?)

Then for refund purposes, you'd still use the 1st Class Anytime Single fare, but instead of Reading, replace with wherever it got declassified.

If no formal ticket acceptance was in place with GWR, the fare due should have been £224.40 each, not an excess (and XC would have been liable to sort something out for you in respect of re-routing).

 

[Haywain]

We paid £69.40 each to upgrade from SAU to RDG, dont understan where the train manager got that price from as we did not hold a ticket from SAU to RDG. The original ticket was SAU to WSM then WSM to Cheltenham then a Cheltenham to BHI ticket.


We paid £69.40 each as it was a Friday.


It was a Friday

Are you sure it wasn't £64.90? That is the difference between Anytime 1st and Standard singles from St Austell to Reading. So he's given you the cheapest upgrade based on ticket acceptance, and I suspect you didn't hold Anytime tickets which would mean he's been quite generous.

 

[Wiganlad]

Are you sure it wasn't £64.90? That is the difference between Anytime 1st and Standard singles from St Austell to Reading. So he's given you the cheapest upgrade based on ticket acceptance, and I suspect you didn't hold Anytime tickets which would mean he's been quite generous.

Yes it was £64.90, No we held Advance single SAU to WSM. Day single WSM to Cheltenham then a return portion of a svaer from Cheltenham to BHI.

Ok, apologies for thinking it was a weekend.

I can see why this is a mess now.

You are not ordinarly entitled, or able, to an excess fare in the way it was issued, as your original tickets did not cover the journey you actually made, except that it may have been (either officially or unofficially) accepted because of the strike action.

If you post full details of what tickets you did actually hold, price, ticket type, Railcard etc, it would be helpful.

Also let us know at what exact point you believe the train became declassified.

Although this calculation shouldn't really be done in your circumstance, and assuming no Railcard, I'd have calculated your excess fare as:

£224.40 (1st Class St. Austell to Reading) then minus either £67.50, £98.40 or £159.50 depending on what type of ticket (Anytime, Off Peak, Super Off Peak) that you originally had.

£224.40-£159.50 is £64.90 (which is very similar to what you paid, are you sure it was actually £69.40?)

Then for refund purposes, you'd still use the 1st Class Anytime Single fare, but instead of Reading, replace with wherever it got declassified.

If no formal ticket acceptance was in place with GWR, the fare due should have been £224.40 each, not an excess (and XC would have been liable to sort something out for you in respect of re-routing).

So this is the breakdown of the tickets we held.

All with a two together card - prices per ticket

SAU - EXD - Advance single - £5.90
EXD - WSM - Advance Single - £3.60
WSM - CNM - OP Single - £9.70
CNM -BHI - OP Return - £20.50

The excess upgrade SAU to RDG was £64.90.

I think the train was declasified Before Castle Cary as this was an additional stop for the service.

I hope this helps

 

[Watershed]

I'm assuming you each paid £25 for a GWR Weekend First Upgrade from St Austell to Reading.

If the train was declassified at, say, Taunton, the upgrade from St Austell to Taunton is £15 - so you could potentially be due £10.

I don't think GWR can take the cost of a fare for a journey the OP didn't make, and deduct this from the amount paid to calculate the refund. That would be fundamentally unfair because the OP is unlikely to have agreed to pay (say) two thirds of the upgrade cost to upgrade one third of the way.

I think the very least the OP is entitled to is a proportional refund, based on the proportion of the journey time for which the service was downgraded.

Even that would appear to be a potential "undervaluation" of their claim, as the NRCoT makes no provision for first class "downgrade" refunds to be partial. They simply say that if first class is advertised but not provided (as was the case here), the difference to the cheapest valid standard fare payable.

 

[Tazi Hupefi]

Ok, you've already massively underpaid because the Train Manager has been far too generous- I think you've done quite well, even with the declassification.

They've essentially treated your XC Advance tickets as the most expensive flexible Anytime Single fare, when they could have charged you a brand new first class fare (as you have absolutely no right to an excess at all) or treated your Advance fares as the lowest tier of flexible ticket, Super Off Peak.

I'd cut your losses with this one, especially if you managed to stay in a first class seat throughout.

 

[Watershed]

Ok, you've already massively underpaid because the Train Manager has been far too generous- I think you've done quite well, even with the declassification.

They've essentially treated your XC Advance tickets as the most expensive flexible Anytime Single fare, when they could have charged you a brand new first class fare (as you have absolutely no right to an excess at all) or treated your Advance fares as the lowest tier of flexible ticket, Super Off Peak.

I'd cut your losses with this one, especially if you managed to stay in a first class seat throughout.

The fact that the Train Manager charged less than they might have been entitled to do doesn't change the fact that the OP is entitled to some recompense for first class being declassified. GWR can't retrospectively "reopen" that calculation in a way that favours them.

At the end of the day, the OP paid £64.90 on the basis of travelling in first class all the way to Reading. That service wasn't provided, so some measure of damages are in order.

I would suggest it should be calculated on the basis of a time-based pro-rata refund.

 

[redreni]

Ok, you've already massively underpaid because the Train Manager has been far too generous- I think you've done quite well, even with the declassification.

They've essentially treated your XC Advance tickets as the most expensive flexible Anytime Single fare, when they could have charged you a brand new first class fare (as you have absolutely no right to an excess at all) or treated your Advance fares as the lowest tier of flexible ticket, Super Off Peak.

I'd cut your losses with this one, especially if you managed to stay in a first class seat throughout.

You did read the part where the OP explained that he wasn't travelling on GWR for a laugh, but because there was no other way to reach Birmingham on that day, right?

Perhaps the OP could clarify whether he checked with the guard or another member of GWR staff, before travelling, that his tickets would be accepted for the journey he made via Reading?

If he simply boarded the train and, in effect, threw himself at the mercy of the guard then I can agree he was fortunate not to be charged anything for travelling on the wrong route, on the wrong operator's train, on the tickets he held. Not because he shouldn't be entitled to make his journey by whatever reasonable route he can given the disruption (he should), but because unfortunately with the rules as they are, it is necessary to either confirm that ticket acceptance is in place or ask the operator you booked with (in this case XC) to re-route you, before travelling.

Whatever the case, however, the fact is the guard did accept the OP's tickets for travel on GWR via Reading, so while the above may be of relevance to the OP in future, it is moot with respect to this particular journey. Moreover GWR's stance that they require evidence that the OP travelled on the train he says he travelled on is just bizarre when he has provided them with the first class excess that was issued on that very train.

I fundamentally disagree with the notion that a passenger who holds valid tickets to make a journey has "underpaid" because the trains he intended to catch didn't run due to industrial action.