GWR withdraw some 800's due to cracks (ORR Report now published)

[Master29]

I know this is an older thread but there are still a few issues regarding 802's "more trains than normal needing repairs" (realtime trains). Is this because of the ongoing cracking issues or is it just these trains are being found out as the lemons many of us suspect I wonder. Today more than half of the west of England services are short formed which must be pure hell for staff and passengers alike having to endure these things. This is not just today either. Tripadvisor recently says a lot although that alone is no gauge I know. Most people I know are saying to avoid the West of England at all costs.

 

[Horizon22]

I know this is an older thread but there are still a few issues regarding 802's "more trains than normal needing repairs" (realtime trains). Is this because of the ongoing cracking issues or is it just these trains are being found out as the lemons many of us suspect I wonder. Today more than half of the west of England services are short formed which must be pure hell for staff and passengers alike having to endure these things. This is not just today either. Tripadvisor recently says a lot although that alone is no gauge I know. Most people I know are saying to avoid the West of England at all costs.

There are around 10-15 sets taken out of service due to the cracks issue. A higher percentage of 802s are affected than 800s and these are the trains that tend to go to the W. Country although that requirement has been eased the past few months. Some had cracks and have already been returned to service after welding but there's also been a surprisingly large amount of normal service faults the last couple of days and a fair bit of displacement caused by the Plymouth bridge strike.

 

[DanNCL]

I know this is an older thread but there are still a few issues regarding 802's "more trains than normal needing repairs" (realtime trains). Is this because of the ongoing cracking issues or is it just these trains are being found out as the lemons many of us suspect I wonder. Today more than half of the west of England services are short formed which must be pure hell for staff and passengers alike having to endure these things. This is not just today either. Tripadvisor recently says a lot although that alone is no gauge I know. Most people I know are saying to avoid the West of England at all costs.

It’s all of the 80xs across the different operators that are having issues. I can’t comment on how bad it is at GWR as I’m not too familiar with it but with LNER fleet availability rarely hits 70%. The cracking issues don’t help, but there’s many technical issues with them too. TPE are just about managing to provide enough 802s for an hourly Newcastle - Liverpool service, if the second Newcastle - Manchester service was running they’d be having to cover some 802 diagrams with 185s.

 

[Nym]

Specified by the DfT, for a DfT level of quality.

The availability of the 80x series units is frankly horrific, there has to be some level of performance penalty that's being hit...?

 

[Ianno87]

The availability of the 80x series units is frankly horrific, there has to be some level of performance penalty that's being hit...?

Yes, no doubt Agility Trains are getting absolutely hammered for (presumably) not providing the contractual number of trains each day.

 

[Charlie Smythe]

Specified by the DfT, for a DfT level of quality.

The availability of the 80x series units is frankly horrific, there has to be some level of performance penalty that's being hit...?

It's okay though, we only have another 24 or so years of this.

 

[Horizon22]

Specified by the DfT, for a DfT level of quality.

The availability of the 80x series units is frankly horrific, there has to be some level of performance penalty that's being hit...?

Yep various thresholds have already been met.

 

[Nym]

And yet the only ones who truly suffer are the passengers left on the platform of vomiting on board because of the horrific ride quality.

 

[Ianno87]

And yet the only ones who truly suffer are the passengers left on the platform of vomiting on board because of the horrific ride quality.

I must be very lucky not to have ever seen this multitude of on-board vomitees on all my travels.

 

[py_megapixel]

vomiting on board because of the horrific ride quality.

I think there may be more than a touch of hyperbole behind that statement... in fact I've never heard a regular passenger comment on this in any stronger terms than "it was a bit bumpy", hardly vomit-inducing...

 

[DanNCL]

The availability issues have been more noticeable than usual today on LNER with them also being a Mark 4 set down, meaning a 10 car formation has had to be split to cover, resulting in two extra short formed diagrams.

If Agility continue failing to perform do the DFT (or if not then LNER and GWR) have any legal avenues that could be explored with an aim to get out of this contract early? This has to be (with the possible exception of the Mark 5s but even they've settled down somewhat now) by far the worst introduction of new stock in the UK for a very long time, quite possibly the worst since some of the early diesels from BR. If I were in LNER's shoes and had a legal option to get out of the Agility contract then I'd be looking at replacing these lemons at the same time as the eventual replacements for the retained 91+mark 4 sets (themeselves only really kept as a result of the 80x shambles) and having a uniform fleet of something a damn site more reliable, and without cracks! It would be much more difficult for GWR to get out of this mess even if there was a legal option to terminate the Agility contract seeing as there's nothing that could replace them.

Regarding the cause of the cracks, could the 26m length bodyshells be partly to blame? I noticed whilst on some LNER units about a month ago that some horrible loud banging noises were coming from the bogies whilst rounding corners, always coming from whichever side of the carriage was on the outside of the bend, and had wondered if there's possibly some link there too.

Another issue I noticed today was the excessive wheel screech on some tighter corners. With 800110 earlier today before I'd seen the unit and could only hear the racket I had wondered if it was a Pacer I was hearing!

And yet the only ones who truly suffer are the passengers left on the platform of vomiting on board because of the horrific ride quality.

Plus of course those passengers who don't even get to board because the booked 9 or 10 car formation has been swapped for a 5 car and it's already crush loaded!

 

[Ianno87]

If Agility continue failing to perform do the DFT (or if not then LNER and GWR) have any legal avenues that could be explored with an aim to get out of this contract early?

Why would they? DfT are effectively getting the fleet at a knock down rate for the time being, with Agility highly financially incentivised to find and implement a long term fix.

Are there any other actual problems with the trains? (Not just the tiresome grumbling about a slightly rough ride and some hard seats)

 

[DanNCL]

Why would they? DfT are effectively getting the fleet at a knock down rate for the time being, with Agility highly financially incentivised to find a long term fix.

Same reason NS walked away from the Fyra contract and OBB walked away from the Talent 3 contract. If these units will not ever be reliable (which as things stand looks like may be the case) then why should the contract remain in place?

 

[Ianno87]

Same reason NS walked away from the Fyra contract and OBB walked away from the Talent 3 contract. If these units will not ever be reliable (which as things stand looks like may be the case) then why should the contract remain in place?

Cracks aside, they are highly reliable units aren't they? Presumably there is confidence that a practical long term fix can be found.

The Fyra units very, very much weren't reliable.

 

[DanNCL]

Cracks aside, they are highly reliable units aren't they? Presumably there is confidence that a practical long term fix can be found.

No they're not. LNER are lucky if they can get 20 of the 26 801/2 diagrams covered by 801/2s and that was still the case even before the cracks were discovered. There have been occasions where availability has been below 50% and again mostly not crack related.

 

[Nym]

That's before you even get onto the EMC issues with the traction packages and the impending obsolescence issues when the control cards for the SiC (Silicon Carbide) semiconductors that use highly tuned circuits are no longer available. The same as the problems you have now with GTO Thyristor Drives, but the issue will be amplified as the SiC switching devices were brought onto the units before the package shapes and drive technology was mature enough to be standard, so there is a very credible risk that when the power semiconductors fail, there won't be any fit form function replacement, let alone one that can be driven in a manner that doesn't significantly affect the vehicle's EMC Profile, or even be able to be driven by something that will fit in the same box.

 

[Charlie Smythe]

Regarding the cause of the cracks, could the 26m length bodyshells be partly to blame? I noticed whilst on some LNER units about a month ago that some horrible loud banging noises were coming from the bogies whilst rounding corners, always coming from whichever side of the carriage was on the outside of the bend, and had wondered if there's possibly some link there too.

Another issue I noticed today was the excessive wheel screech on some tighter corners. With 800110 earlier today before I'd seen the unit and could only hear the racket I had wondered if it was a Pacer I was hearing!

The loud banging was rumoured to be the engines banging on their mounts around turns, although I don't know if this was ever officially confirmed as being the case so take it with a pinch of salt (or a cup full). As for wheel screech, probably down to the long wheelbase of the units caused the frames to twist more round corners etc.

Some coaching stock and DMU's (I believe the 153's were know for this) had sagged quite a bit towards the end of their lives and I do wonder if the motorcars on the 8xx series units will be the same in a few years. They're very long at 26 metres and very heavy (motorcars are upwards of 60 tonnes) so they certainly have the perfect reciepe for sagging but I don't know if that 60 tonnes comes from the engine and other traction related equipment or whether it's just because the frames are beefy. If its the former then sagging is almost certainly going to happen, if it's the latter though then I wouldn't expect it to happen at somepoint.

If these units will not ever be reliable (which as things stand looks like may be the case) then why should the contract remain in place?

The contract will remain in place because the units are financed with and maintained by Agility Trains to ditching them would not only be a legal nightmare, but an opeational on as well as you would need to find someone to take it on unless the DfT took it in house.

Also, I doubt the contrat allows for either party to just pull out.

 

[dgl]

I'm guessing Agility and the Government could come to an agreement to ditch the 80x's if it gets to the point where Agility no longer have any financial benefit to continue the agreement.
At some point someone will have to broach the question "Shall I give Siemens Mobility a call and see what they can do for us?" or maybe Siemens have already given the Government a proposal should the 80x's become even more problematic.

 

[Horizon22]

Why would they? DfT are effectively getting the fleet at a knock down rate for the time being, with Agility highly financially incentivised to find and implement a long term fix.

Are there any other actual problems with the trains? (Not just the tiresome grumbling about a slightly rough ride and some hard seats)

They break down a lot more than you'd expect (The MTIN figures are fairly dire). The diesel generator units often conk out which leads to reduced performance. Various other restrictions placed on the units by Hitachi for servicing and even then availability is not where it should be.

 

[mcmad]

All those talking about ditching the 80x's. What exactly are you replacing them with that is proven in the UK?

 

[Ianno87]

All those talking about ditching the 80x's. What exactly are you replacing them with that is proven in the UK?

...and in a timescale that is faster than just fixing the issues with IETs once and for all.

 

[Charlie Smythe]

I'm guessing Agility and the Government could come to an agreement to ditch the 80x's if it gets to the point where Agility no longer have any financial benefit to continue the agreement.
At some point someone will have to broach the question "Shall I give Siemens Mobility a call and see what they can do for us?" or maybe Siemens have already given the Government a proposal should the 80x's become even more problematic.

Sounds expensive and wouldn't really go down well with those in control of the purse strings. No matter how badly the 80x perform over the next few years they will not be ditched early. THere is to much money involved and the DfT, Hitachi and Agility Trains are all too close connected within the contract.

One thing though, if they're this unreliable after 3 years service what are they going to be like in after 27.5 years of service? Something tells me when that day comes they will be scrapped sharpish and never mentioned again. We certainly won't see a class 800 preservation movement nor will their be any reuse programs like the HST's have had.

They break down a lot more than you'd expect (The MTIN figures are fairly dire). The diesel generator units often conk out which leads to reduced performance. Various other restrictions placed on the units by Hitachi for servicing and even then availability is not where it should be.

Running with an engine out on a 9 car set up Hemerdon is a very slow experiance. In reality the 5 cars should have had 4 engines and the 9 car should have had 6 instead of 3 and 5 respectively. At least then overall performance would have been better and they would have had decent performance even with one engine out, although it all comes down to cost.

All those talking about ditching the 80x's. What exactly are you replacing them with that is proven in the UK?

Let Siemens or Caf have a crack at a long distance express train, or maybe Stadler.

 

[DanNCL]

The loud banging was rumoured to be the engines banging on their mounts around turns, although I don't know if this was ever officially confirmed as being the case so take it with a pinch of salt (or a cup full). As for wheel screech, probably down to the long wheelbase of the units caused the frames to twist more round corners etc.

I've heard this noise in driving carriages, as well as motor carriages without engines on 801s, so it can't be the engines.

Some coaching stock and DMU's (I believe the 153's were know for this) had sagged quite a bit towards the end of their lives and I do wonder if the motorcars on the 8xx series units will be the same in a few years. They're very long at 26 metres and very heavy (motorcars are upwards of 60 tonnes) so they certainly have the perfect reciepe for sagging but I don't know if that 60 tonnes comes from the engine and other traction related equipment or whether it's just because the frames are beefy. If its the former then sagging is almost certainly going to happen, if it's the latter though then I wouldn't expect it to happen at somepoint.

I've seen some sagging already on some of the TPE 802s, both on intermediate and driving carriages.

The contract will remain in place because the units are financed with and maintained by Agility Trains to ditching them would not only be a legal nightmare, but an opeational on as well as you would need to find someone to take it on unless the DfT took it in house.

Also, I doubt the contrat allows for either party to just pull out.

I'm guessing Agility and the Government could come to an agreement to ditch the 80x's if it gets to the point where Agility no longer have any financial benefit to continue the agreement.
At some point someone will have to broach the question "Shall I give Siemens Mobility a call and see what they can do for us?" or maybe Siemens have already given the Government a proposal should the 80x's become even more problematic.

The vast majority of contracts aren't written in a way that allows either party to just pull out and no doubt this is no exception, though if Agility remain consistently unable to deliver then there must surely be legal grounds to terminate the contract on that basis. Likewise if they're continuing to suffer large penalty payments for it, Agility may well decide it's no longer worthwhile for them and try to terminate the contract themselves. Either way, if this saga carries on much longer and no drastic improvements are made to reliability then there would be very little benefit to either party for the contract to remain in place.

They break down a lot more than you'd expect (The MTIN figures are fairly dire). The diesel generator units often conk out which leads to reduced performance. Various other restrictions placed on the units by Hitachi for servicing and even then availability is not where it should be.

Door faults, ETCS faults (which the lack of a traditional speedometer on the non-GWR units means the unit is a complete failure if the ETCS system isn't working, despite none of the routes being ETCS equipped), non multi restrictions on many of the 5 car units, there's a long list of issues with them.

Despite all the issues one of the LNER sub fleets managed to win a golden spanner last year! Struggling to imagine how unless a new award category had been created with the criteria set so that only an 80x fleet could win it...
The 91+Mark 4 fleet also won a golden spanner last year, at the expense of any of the other LNER 80x fleets, that must have been embarrasing for Hitachi/Agility having the old fleet they'd been trying to run into the ground winning an award at the expense of their shiny new fleet!

All those talking about ditching the 80x's. What exactly are you replacing them with that is proven in the UK?

Unless a new major safety issue was found with them (lets hope not), the 80xs would remain in service until replacements were built. Of course this is much easier for LNER who are already looking for new build units to replace the 91+Mark 4 sets than it is for GWR.

...and in a timescale that is faster than just fixing the issues with IETs once and for all.

The timescale isn't always the most important consideration. I refer back to OBB's cancellation of the Talent 3 order, of course the quicker option would have been to let Alstom get the fleet into some sort of semi-reliable condition, but that was not the best outcome for the operator nor the travelling public, therefore wasn't taken forward.

Sounds expensive and wouldn't really go down well with those in control of the purse strings. No matter how badly the 80x perform over the next few years they will not be ditched early. THere is to much money involved and the DfT, Hitachi and Agility Trains are all too close connected within the contract.

The links between DFT and Agility Trains (as well as between the DFT and Hitachi) are definitely worth further investigation. A quick look on companies house a while back suggested there may have been a few conflicts of interest...

One thing though, if they're this unreliable after 3 years service what are they going to be like in after 27.5 years of service? Something tells me when that day comes they will be scrapped sharpish and never mentioned again. We certainly won't see a class 800 preservation movement nor will their be any reuse programs like the HST's have had.

Not even 3 years for the 801s and the (non GWR) 802s! Unless Grand Central want them (who knows, they were mad enough to take the 180s!) I agree scrap is the most likely option.

 

[Ianno87]

The timescale isn't always the most important consideration. I refer back to OBB's cancellation of the Talent 3 order, of course the quicker option would have been to let Alstom get the fleet into some sort of semi-reliable condition, but that was not the best outcome for the operator nor the travelling public, therefore wasn't taken forward.

So, spend 5 years procuring a new fleet and in the meantime the issues with IETs are ironed out (at Agility's expense), rendering it a fantastic waste of taxpayers' money.

The links between DFT and Agility Trains (as well as between the DFT and Hitachi) are definitely worth further investigation. A quick look on companies house a while back suggested there may have been a few conflicts of interest...

Can you elaborate on this, and provide some evidence? I notice the word "may" and "suggested" doing a bit of the lifting on this claim.

 

[DanNCL]

So, spend 5 years procuring a new fleet and in the meantime the issues with IETs are ironed out (at Agility's expense), rendering it a fantastic waste of money.

At the expense of the company that screwed it up. These companies know they run these huge financial risks when doing such actions, if they didn't want to take the consequences they should never have signed the contracts in the first place.

Can you elaborate on this, and provide some evidence? I notice the word "may" and "suggested" doing a bit of the lifting on this claim.

I am not certain which is exactly why I used the words "may" and "suggested" rather than claiming it as fact. I was referring to the fact that there appear to have been, if I recall correctly, some directors that had been registered for both the DFT and Agility/Hitachi.

I was very simply saying it was worthy of some further investigation as there could potentially be a conflict of interest, I didn't claim it as fact.

Companies house is a public resource so feel free to look it up yourself.

If I am mistaken then I am happy to stand corrected and correct the record in my previous post.

 

[Wolfie]

I'm guessing Agility and the Government could come to an agreement to ditch the 80x's if it gets to the point where Agility no longer have any financial benefit to continue the agreement.
At some point someone will have to broach the question "Shall I give Siemens Mobility a call and see what they can do for us?" or maybe Siemens have already given the Government a proposal should the 80x's become even more problematic.

Given that Agility in this context is essentially Hitachi you are effectively asking them to say "our trains are crap". Never, ever, going to happen. Oh, and many of the issues with the 800-series trains arguably resulted from DfT-inspired and requested changes so lots of potential for litigation...

Let Siemens or Caf have a crack at a long distance express train, or maybe Stadler.

Yeah cos CAFs recent products in UK have all been ultra-reliable and non-problematic huh....

 

[irish_rail]

Running with an engine out on a 9 car set up Hemerdon is a very slow experiance. In reality the 5 cars should have had 4 engines and the 9 car should have had 6 instead of 3 and 5 respectively. At least then overall performance would have been better and they would have had decent performance even with one engine out, although it all comes down to cocost.

Too be fair they are still pretty good at keeping to time even with one or even 2 engines out. They may lose a minute on Hemerdon however this is usually clawed back quickly.

 

[Nym]

Add to that the DfT enthusiasm for anything Hitachi.

Given that Agility in this context is essentially Hitachi you are effectively asking them to say "our trains are crap". Never, ever, going to happen. Oh, and many of the issues with the 800-series trains arguably resulted from DfT-inspired and requested changes so lots of potential for litigation...

 

[irish_rail]

Cracks aside, they are highly reliable units aren't they? Presumably there is confidence that a practical long term fix can be found.

The Fyra units very, very much weren't reliable.

They are surprisingly unreliable actually. Mainly down to the cheap fixtures and fittings.
Drivers seats for example have led to countless failures, as have broken drivers sunblinds, windscreen wipers , horn faults, the list goes on. All down to cheap procurement of components in my opinion.

 

[Wolfie]

Add to that the DfT enthusiasm for anything Hitachi.

Redwall innit....