Halton Curve upgrade is on

[telstarbox]

The Halton Curve will be upgraded.

Today, Mr Osborne will announce the Halton Curve upgrade, to improve connectivity between Liverpool, Cheshire, Warrington and North Wales and will also offer £4m of improvements to the A5300 Knowsley Expressway to maximise the benefits of the New Mersey crossing and access to Liverpool John Lennon Airport

http://www.liverpoolecho.co.uk/news/liverpool-news/chancellor-george-osborne-unveils-40m-7362574

 

[Cheshire Rover]

Great news.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

As the old adage says...."Everything comes to those who wait", but we must always remember that more good news is announced by HM Government in the final year that leads up to a General Election..

 

[Techniquest]

Fantastic stuff, it'll be incredibly useful for all manners of journeys. I'm looking forward to it mostly because I won't have to get to Chester on a summer Saturday morning to do the curve!

 

[Dunc108]

Hopefully it'll bring a better service between Liverpool and North Wales!

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

With the fiasco that has entered the annals on north-west rail folklore known as the "Todmorden Chord Debacle" springing readily to mind, will all the requisite Halton Curve trackwork and ancillary works be so effected, then it will be found that there is no rolling stock to run on the updated Halton Curve...

 

[theshillito]

While they don't explicitly say what the upgrade work is, I'm presuming it's just making it suitable to run in both directions? The figure seems kinda low for redoubling, though I could be wrong.

 

[8A Rail]

While they don't explicitly say what the upgrade work is, I'm presuming it's just making it suitable to run in both directions? The figure seems kinda low for redoubling, though I could be wrong.

My thoughts too, so must assume single bi-direction line with upgraded junctions at both ends and relevant signalling. Regardless, still may have no spare units to operate on it though! This government loves spending money on infrastructure but forgets you need trains to actually operate on the lines!! Oh yes there is an election in the next 12 mths too, no coincidence hey - still dont get my vote!

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

There is, of course, no agreement on what services will run on the completed curve.
At least it is in time to get into the specification for the new Northern franchise.

 

[muddythefish]

If they were doing this properly, it should be double track and electrified but no doubt it will be done on the cheap as a single non-electrfied line with a basic service.

 

[theshillito]

My thoughts too, so must assume single bi-direction line with upgraded junctions at both ends and relevant signalling. Regardless, still may have no spare units to operate on it though! This government loves spending money on infrastructure but forgets you need trains to actually operate on the lines!!

Northern Rail currently operate the Chester to Runcorn service, then ECS to Liverpool. They haven't got spare stock to run new services yet, or the requirements in the franchise to actually do any more than the current parly service. Some DMUs might become available thanks to the cascade of EMUs to them, but the intention for these was to add capacity to existing routes, not create new routes.

I guess when Northern's current franchise comes to an end, either they get new stock to run new services like that or there might be the opportunity for Arriva TW to run services from Wales to Liverpool. Not sure if there's demand for that though.

While I think on, if a train runs from Chester to Liverpool Lime Street via the Halton Curve, how fast could it potentially be compared to the MerseyRail route? I guess if one is slower than the other, you could have cheaper "via Hooton" or "via Runcorn" tickets.

 

[merlodlliw]

This was also discussed yesterday in Parliament,North Wales MPs want direct trains from North Wales to Liverpool & Manchester Airports.
I am sure the new Wales & Borders franchise will be involved or should be.

 

[The Planner]

If they were doing this properly, it should be double track and electrified but no doubt it will be done on the cheap as a single non-electrfied line with a basic service.

Not this old chesnut again, what sort of service do people really expect there to be that requires the curve to be double track? Also, whats the point of electrifying it now if there is nowhere for electric trains to go? The extra cost of doing that plus the ongoing maintenance would blow any case for the curve to re-open out the water. Tack it on to the back of a wider electrification scheme and it will happen. People need to see the bigger picture before coming up with usual solution without a problem.

 

[theshillito]

Not this old chesnut again, what sort of service do people really expect there to be that requires the curve to be double track? Also, whats the point of electrifying it now if there is nowhere for electric trains to go? The extra cost of doing that plus the ongoing maintenance would blow any case for the curve to re-open out the water. Tack it on to the back of a wider electrification scheme and it will happen. People need to see the bigger picture before coming up with usual solution without a problem.

The curve itself is a mile and a half long I believe. Speed limit of 40mph, so about 3 minutes journey time, give or take a few minutes. The line didn't really need to be double track now that I think about it. Also, as far as electrification goes, there is no reason unless there's plans to electrify Arriva's Chester to Manchester line, but I've not heard anything considering it, so I doubt it.

 

[merlodlliw]

Not this old chesnut again, what sort of service do people really expect there to be that requires the curve to be double track? Also, whats the point of electrifying it now if there is nowhere for electric trains to go? The extra cost of doing that plus the ongoing maintenance would blow any case for the curve to re-open out the water. Tack it on to the back of a wider electrification scheme and it will happen. People need to see the bigger picture before coming up with usual solution without a problem.

The bigger picture appears electrifying Warrington to Chester & beyond,the current Secretary Of State for Wales is pushing for this, as for future services, no one knows,but like the Cambrian if the infrastructure is there then new services could operate,it seems Westminster is more in tune with North Wales travel destinations than Cardiff Bay.

 

[Cheshire Rover]

I wonder if Merseyrail have any plans?

 

[theshillito]

I wonder if Merseyrail have any plans?

Why would they? Unless they create some sort of crazy Liverpool Loop - Hooton - Ellesmere Port - Helsby - Halton Curve - Runcorn - Liverpool Lime Street Upper Level service. I think the only thing they're thinking about is extending to Helsby for connections to Arriva Services and as an alternative Liverpool service for those at the Ellesmere Port end of the line via the Halton Curve. Merseyrail won't benefit from the curve at all IMO.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

The curve itself is a mile and a half long I believe. Speed limit of 40mph, so about 3 minutes journey time, give or take a few minutes. The line didn't really need to be double track now that I think about it. Also, as far as electrification goes, there is no reason unless there's plans to electrify Arriva's Chester to Manchester line, but I've not heard anything considering it, so I doubt it.

Warrington-Chester electrification is on the DfT's list being investigated by a Task Force.
Unless they are non-stop (unlikely) services will be no faster than the stoppers from Chester via Hooton.
The current summer SO stops only at Runcorn before running ECS to Lime St, and takes 43 minutes.
The main benefit would be if trains ran through from North Wales.

 

[jrleighton]

Isn't the bigger picture that the Chat Moss route will be fuller, so removing the N Wales trains from there would be a bonus? Plus not running them into Piccadilly from the west, and then terminating them there.

So much easier to run these trains into Lime Street.

What about those who are Manchester bound? How about a change at Chester to a new fast service via the Chancellor's own constituency. That would run into Piccadilly from the south - much better for a terminating train. Plus the route wouldn't be too much longer, time wise.

 

[philjo]

I know several people living in Shropshire who use Liverpool airport regularly but currently drive due to the lack of direct trains.
Maybe a Liverpool-Shrewsbury via Chester service, or extend the planned additional Aberystwyth-Shrewsbury services to Liverpool ? That would give the Cambrian services in alternate hours to Birmingham and Liverpool & also provides direct links to Wrexham & Chester for North Wales connections.

 

[theshillito]

I know several people living in Shropshire who use Liverpool airport regularly but currently drive due to the lack of direct trains.
Maybe a Liverpool-Shrewsbury via Chester service, or extend the planned additional Aberystwyth-Shrewsbury services to Liverpool ? That would give the Cambrian services in alternate hours to Birmingham and Liverpool & also provides direct links to Wrexham & Chester for North Wales connections.

I would've thought it would be quicker to just go to Liverpool via Crewe from Shrewsbury.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Isn't the bigger picture that the Chat Moss route will be fuller, so removing the N Wales trains from there would be a bonus? Plus not running them into Piccadilly from the west, and then terminating them there.
So much easier to run these trains into Lime Street.
What about those who are Manchester bound? How about a change at Chester to a new fast service via the Chancellor's own constituency. That would run into Piccadilly from the south - much better for a terminating train. Plus the route wouldn't be too much longer, time wise.

So you propose dumping the most direct through route?
The mid-Cheshire line is not and will never be "fast" (unless the direct link via Manchester Airport is built, the route through Northwich upgraded and the single line between Mouldsworth and Mickle Trafford doubled).
It currently has 3 single track sections and there aren't enough paths at Stockport for even the local services.
And diverting Manchester trains to Liverpool? Are you serious?
The bigger picture is that Warrington-Chester will be electrified and services extended beyond Manchester under Northern Hub proposals.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

The mid-Cheshire line is not and will never be "fast" (unless the direct link via Manchester Airport is built, the route through Northwich upgraded and the single line between Mouldsworth and Mickle Trafford doubled). It currently has 3 single track sections and there aren't enough paths at Stockport for even the local services.

When discussing the direct link to Manchester Airport, which CP period should we be considering to be the most likely one when completion will be so effected ?

 

[Taunton]

Can someone tell me what advantage this long-way-round route will offer over the existing every-15 minutes electric service from Liverpool to Chester, to justify such expenditure on track and extra stock.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

When discussing the direct link to Manchester Airport, which CP period should we be considering to be the most likely one when completion will be so effected ?

It seems to have gone on the back burner for a while, Paul.
Been overtaken by Northern Hub for CP5, anyway.
Same for the Middlewich reopening which would also prompt the upgrading of the route.

 

[driver_m]

Not this old chesnut again, what sort of service do people really expect there to be that requires the curve to be double track? Also, whats the point of electrifying it now if there is nowhere for electric trains to go? The extra cost of doing that plus the ongoing maintenance would blow any case for the curve to re-open out the water. Tack it on to the back of a wider electrification scheme and it will happen. People need to see the bigger picture before coming up with usual solution without a problem.

If the remaining track never got slewed over to the middle of the trackbed then wouldn't it be easier to effectively put the old line back as was? Surely making that line Bi-Di would cost just as much?! Plus your company doesn't seem to like reactionary delays, so wouldn't the possibility of trains being held up waiting for a train on a single line cause more problems?

 

[pemma]

Some DMUs might become available thanks to the cascade of EMUs to them, but the intention for these was to add capacity to existing routes, not create new routes.

Well both apply but more capacity to existing routes more so. New routes are Blackburn to Manchester via Burnley and possibly Stockport to Victoria via Denton, although it's all gone quiet on the latter.

 

[edwin_m]

If the remaining track never got slewed over to the middle of the trackbed then wouldn't it be easier to effectively put the old line back as was? Surely making that line Bi-Di would cost just as much?! Plus your company doesn't seem to like reactionary delays, so wouldn't the possibility of trains being held up waiting for a train on a single line cause more problems?

If the journey time is indeed 3 minutes then even with a half-hourly service the line would be empty 80% of the time. And if there are any arch bridges then slewing to the centre would reduce costs of any eventual electrification. If the Runcorn end is being re-signaled then bi-di will cost less than restoring the previous layout. Don't know if the Frodsham end is being re-signaled as well.

 

[pemma]

It seems to have gone on the back burner for a while, Paul.
Been overtaken by Northern Hub for CP5, anyway.
Same for the Middlewich reopening which would also prompt the upgrading of the route.

Western Airport link to be reviewed as a potential CP6 scheme, depending on how congested the Airport-Piccadilly is post-Northern Hub and how much demand there is for new Airport services.

The Middlewich line is not under consideration by Network Rail at the current time, despite an Independent Consultant's report saying the benefit:cost ratio of running a service on that line is 5:1 and passenger growth on the Mid-Cheshire line being at 10% per annum.

 

[theshillito]

If the journey time is indeed 3 minutes

Here ya go

Passes Frodsham Jn 0806
Passes Halton Jn 0811
Arrives Runcorn [RUN] 0814

A quick check says that Halton Jn is actually at the Runcorn end, not the Frodsham end, so it's actually a journey time of 5 minutes between junctions (via the curve). Earlier in the thread, I was counting the time between Halton Jn and Runcorn (3 minutes), so that's not correct by 2 minutes.