Has a heritage railway ever prosecuted under bylaws?

[Egg Centric]

As far as anyone knows, has a heritage railway ever launched a prosecution under any bylaws?

 

[ikcdab]

I risk opening a whole can of worms, but as I understand it, heritage railways are not providing a transport service in the same way that a national railway company does, they are running a tourist attraction more like Longleat or similar. Thus I don't think they come under the bye laws.
This is a can of worms because in order to claim gift aid on tickets (again I think) they need to be providing a service.
In general though, without rail cards, automatic barriers, complex ticketing and all the paraphanalia that lengthy mainline railways have, the potential for fare evasion is vastly reduced, probably almost to zero.

 

[Haywain]

in order to claim gift aid on tickets (again I think) they need to be providing a service.

I don't think that's the case but part of the payment has to be a donation in order to claim gift aid (I think, I find it rather confusing).

 

[renegademaster]

I witnessed a long argument with a teenager on the SVR over an unpaid ticket, I think eventually the guard gave up realizing theirs not much he can do

 

[Jan Mayen]

Here is an old thread:

Fare Dodgers on Heritage / Independent Railways

I must admit I enjoy reading the messages in this section and often wonder why people get themselves into the difficulties that they do mainly through their intent to defraud the operators; though I accept some have made a genuine mistake. Something which has been intriguing me though is what...

www.railforums.co.uk

 

[Egg Centric]

I risk opening a whole can of worms, but as I understand it, heritage railways are not providing a transport service in the same way that a national railway company does, they are running a tourist attraction more like Longleat or similar. Thus I don't think they come under the bye laws.
This is a can of worms because in order to claim gift aid on tickets (again I think) they need to be providing a service.
In general though, without rail cards, automatic barriers, complex ticketing and all the paraphanalia that lengthy mainline railways have, the potential for fare evasion is vastly reduced, probably almost to zero.

No idea what the rules are but to peek inside your can (before slamming it shut ) one would hope that the definition of service can't be too "strict".

I used Weardale Railway as a service on Saturday. Admittedly we went out of our way to use it, but it genuinely got 3 of us to Bishop Auckland and back to the food festival. Nothing about gift aid on that occasion but I have also used NYMR as a service within the last couple of months where that definitely was gift aid (and indeed as @Haywain says the rules are confusing, aiui the reason the ticket is a year's pass there is something to do with the gift aid thing).

Don't think that's particularly different from the "real railway" up here - in truth I mostly go out of my way to use the ECML as well as it's usually quicker - and certainly more convenient - for me to drive, even from County Durham to Watford! Goes also for my use of the Tyne and Wear Metro, Northern services to/from Hexham, etc etc.

Meanwhile within Zone 1 I tend to cycle unless it's raining. So it's a pretty small area of the south east the railway is genuinely providing a service for me (obv many don't have a car, can't cycle, can't afford a taxi) in the sense I would use it if I didn't love trains, and that can't be a sensible standard.

 

[Krokodil]

but as I understand it, heritage railways are not providing a transport service in the same way that a national railway company does, they are running a tourist attraction more like Longleat or similar.

As long as it goes from one place to another, no VAT is due. So Didcot have to charge VAT on their tickets, but the Avon Valley don't.

This is a can of worms because in order to claim gift aid on tickets (again I think) they need to be providing a service.

No, Gift Aid can only be applied to donations, not to fares. So when you visit the Talyllyn you can make a donation instead of paying a fare. There is a difference of £1 (to count as a donation you've got to be paying extra) which they give you back in the form of a £1 voucher for the shop/cafe.

 

[Gwr12345]

No idea what the rules are but to peek inside your can (before slamming it shut ) one would hope that the definition of service can't be too "strict".

I used Weardale Railway as a service on Saturday. Admittedly we went out of our way to use it, but it genuinely got 3 of us to Bishop Auckland and back to the food festival. Nothing about gift aid on that occasion but I have also used NYMR as a service within the last couple of months where that definitely was gift aid (and indeed as @Haywain says the rules are confusing, aiui the reason the ticket is a year's pass there is something to do with the gift aid thing).

Don't think that's particularly different from the "real railway" up here - in truth I mostly go out of my way to use the ECML as well as it's usually quicker - and certainly more convenient - for me to drive, even from County Durham to Watford! Goes also for my use of the Tyne and Wear Metro, Northern services to/from Hexham, etc etc.

Meanwhile within Zone 1 I tend to cycle unless it's raining. So it's a pretty small area of the south east the railway is genuinely providing a service for me (obv many don't have a car, can't cycle, can't afford a taxi) in the sense I would use it if I didn't love trains, and that can't be a sensible standard.

The Weardale Railway in its terms and conditions claims that it can issue penalty fares! I wouldn't imagine any have ever been issued though.

2. Penalty Fares



You may be liable to pay a Penalty Fare if: (a) you travel in a train without a ticket or Permit to Travel; or (b) you travel in a class of accommodation for which the ticket is not valid.

 

[Krokodil]

The Weardale Railway in its terms and conditions claims that it can issue penalty fares! I wouldn't imagine any have ever been issued though.

I want to know where Stanhope's PERTIS machine is now!

 

[Egg Centric]

The Weardale Railway in its terms and conditions claims that it can issue penalty fares! I wouldn't imagine any have ever been issued though.

I hope it has a three stage appeal process where the first two stages are processed by illiterate morons

 

[6Gman]

As long as it goes from one place to another, no VAT is due. So Didcot have to charge VAT on their tickets, but the Avon Valley don't.


No, Gift Aid can only be applied to donations, not to fares. So when you visit the Talyllyn you can make a donation instead of paying a fare. There is a difference of £1 (to count as a donation you've got to be paying extra) which they give you back in the form of a £1 voucher for the shop/cafe.

I believe this is correct. The OP seems to have confused two different issues of Gift Aid and VAT.

As stated by @Krokodil Gift Aid can only apply to donations, and VAT exemption only applies to a fare paid to another location. Many years ago I remember discussing this with someone involved at Steamtown, Carnforth in relation to their miniature railway. By having a station with a name at the far end from which passengers could walk they could keep 15% extra on each fare!

 

[JonG184]

As long as it goes from one place to another, no VAT is due. So Didcot have to charge VAT on their tickets, but the Avon Valley don't.


No, Gift Aid can only be applied to donations, not to fares. So when you visit the Talyllyn you can make a donation instead of paying a fare. There is a difference of £1 (to count as a donation you've got to be paying extra) which they give you back in the form of a £1 voucher for the shop/cafe.

Just to clarify, the Talyllyn Railway (which is a statutory railway company established by Act of Parliament in 1865) offers Donation Fares which are 10% higher than the Basic Fares, and customers then receive a voucher for the same amount which can be used for hot and non-alcoholic cold drinks in the cafes (I'm a volunteer Booking Clerk on the railway).

 

[Egg Centric]

non-alcoholic

Is this cause of yet another fun law?

Great how regulations cause all sorts of strange behaviour isn't it?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Is this cause of yet another fun law?

The get-out that tends to be used is that it's a membership. The voucher sounds iffy to me but I expect they've sought relevant advice.

Almost everywhere else I've seen this done it's been for a 12 month membership. (That's how Scouting manages to do it).

 

[Deafdoggie]

The voucher sounds iffy to me but I expect they've sought relevant advice.

Almost everywhere else I've seen this done it's been for a 12 month membership. (That's how Scouting manages to do it).

I'm pretty certain the voucher isn't legal and any HMRC inspectors reading this are probably launching an investigation as we speak! The benefit can only be worth a maximum of 25% of the donation, so getting the full price of the donation back in vouchers is, obviously 100%
A 12 month membership is usually priced, conveniently, at 25% of the donation amount!

 

[Solent&Wessex]

Heritage Railways will not be covered by THE Byelaws (i.e. the Railway Byelaws) as they are not an Operator as defined by those Byelaws.

They would be perfectly able to apply to make their own Byelaws of course.

The KWVR has done so and they are an almost word for word copy of the Railway Byelaws. In cases such as this, and depending on the wording in any Byelaws, then there would be no reason why a heritage railway couldn't prosecute.

Whether they had the will and the means to do so is an entirely different matter, and I suspect the answer to both questions would be 'no'.

Of course such Byelaws do confer other abilities to enforce rules, such as those related to parking or camping on their land, for example.

 

[wilbers]

I'm pretty certain the voucher isn't legal and any HMRC inspectors reading this are probably launching an investigation as we speak! The benefit can only be worth a maximum of 25% of the donation, so getting the full price of the donation back in vouchers is, obviously 100%
A 12 month membership is usually priced, conveniently, at 25% of the donation amount!

Interesting. However as I read it the donation is at least £1 higher than the fare, and all fares will be more than £3 so for the 25% the £1 voucher will be a moot point, or were you meaning the benefit of being able to go on the train?

 

[Deafdoggie]

Interesting. However as I read it the donation is at least £1 higher than the fare, and all fares will be more than £3 so for the 25% the £1 voucher will be a moot point, or were you meaning the benefit of being able to go on the train?

You must be donating something to the charity. If you "donate" £1 (the extra above the train fare) then get given £1 back, you've not donated £1! There might, if you've got a good lawyer, be an argument saying the £1 voucher isn't £1, but I think most people see a £1 voucher as £1.

 

[jumble]

I'm pretty certain the voucher isn't legal and any HMRC inspectors reading this are probably launching an investigation as we speak! The benefit can only be worth a maximum of 25% of the donation, so getting the full price of the donation back in vouchers is, obviously 100%
A 12 month membership is usually priced, conveniently, at 25% of the donation amount!

I think there is a touch of confusion to what the Talyllyn are doing

We went in October 2020 and were given a £5.00 voucher so they have been doing it for at least 3 years
This is what the confirmation email said
If you have donated your fare your "thank you" voucher will waiting for you in your compartment
eg the whole fare is donated

This is backed up by their fares page which lists an adult explorer as a donation fare as costing £28.00

Talyllyn Railway | Our 2024 Fares

www.talyllyn.co.uk

Donation Fares
Help us to preserve our historic railway at no extra cost to you by choosing the Donation Fare.

By paying the Donation Fare, you make an additional voluntary donation of 10% of the fare, and in return we will give you a voucher of this value to spend in our cafés on tea, coffee or cartons of juice. Please request a Basic Fare if you do not wish to pay the Donation Fare, but note that you will not receive a voucher.

If you are a UK taxpayer you may be able to Gift Aid your Donation Fare, meaning we can claim an extra 25% of the fare from the Government at no cost to you. Gift aiding is extremely beneficial to us and aids our ongoing preservation efforts.

We also encourage the optional £1 donation that Carbon Offsets your journey – we invest it in projects that further our Carbon ‘Net Zero’ ambitions.

Explorer Ticket (Adult) – Return trip or break your journey. Ride all day £28
(Drink Voucher £2.60)

 

[Deafdoggie]

That's definitely not gift aid then. You're not allowed to get anything for your donation, be it a product or service. So if it's a donation fare you're getting a train ride for your donation. That's not permitted under gift aid

 

[jumble]

That's definitely not gift aid then. You're not allowed to get anything for your donation, be it a product or service. So if it's a donation fare you're getting a train ride for your donation. That's not permitted under gift aid

Hmm
NYMR claim to have HMRC approval to do exactly this.

Gift Aid takes the NYMR to next level

NYMR is pleased to announce that it has now received the go-ahead from HM Revenue & Customs to be able to offer Gift Aid and claim 25% tax back from donation tickets.

www.nymr.co.uk

HM Revenue & Customs has agreed in writing with the NYMR that a ticket purchased which entitles the purchaser to unrestricted access to the public areas and timetabled trains of the NYMR for a day (our Freedom Ticket) can be donated and will qualify for this exemption. This only applies where the primary purpose of the visitor is to view the property and work of the charity, not any other purpose.

 

[Krokodil]

We went in October 2020 and were given a £5.00 voucher so they have been doing it for at least 3 years

I think that it was a thing in 2016.

 

[Deafdoggie]

Hmm
NYMR claim to have HMRC approval to do exactly this.

Gift Aid takes the NYMR to next level

NYMR is pleased to announce that it has now received the go-ahead from HM Revenue & Customs to be able to offer Gift Aid and claim 25% tax back from donation tickets.

www.nymr.co.uk

HM Revenue & Customs has agreed in writing with the NYMR that a ticket purchased which entitles the purchaser to unrestricted access to the public areas and timetabled trains of the NYMR for a day (our Freedom Ticket) can be donated and will qualify for this exemption. This only applies where the primary purpose of the visitor is to view the property and work of the charity, not any other purpose.

They are saying the primary purpose must be to visit the premises and view the work...not travel on the trains. Whilst we all know people will travel on the trains, it's an important distinction that that's not the primary purpose of the visit!

It's also interesting to note that the voucher value isn't the same as the donation value.

 

[jumble]

They are saying the primary purpose must be to visit the premises and view the work...not travel on the trains. Whilst we all know people will travel on the trains, it's an important distinction that that's not the primary purpose of the visit!

It's also interesting to note that the voucher value isn't the same as the donation value.

Maybe true but I place this in the same catagory as the alleged offence of opening other peoples mail that is posted through ones door or breaking up multipacks of cans of Coca Cola which say on them not for individual resale
No one knows No one cares and what would they do about it even if they did care?

 

[Haywain]

No one knows No one cares and what would they do about it even if they did care?

I would be surprised if the tax authorities are not aware and would expect that the heritage railways are doing this after receiving very good guidance about whether it is legitimate.

 

[CharlieSpotted]

Maybe true but I place this in the same catagory as the alleged offence of opening other peoples mail that is posted through ones door or breaking up multipacks of cans of Coca Cola which say on them not for individual resale
No one knows No one cares and what would they do about it even if they did care?

Drastically off-topic, but if you are a retailer where you are in a position to buy directly from the Coca Cola Company, they will often supply you with resources like branded signage, fridges, etc. and you'll get a favourable rate. They will also come and check from time-to-time that you're displaying those assets and merchandising their products in exactly the way they want. If, on one of those inspections, they find you have split a multipack and put those cans in the fridge you'll be in breach of contract and all that nice stuff goes away in an instant.

So, there are commercial consequences for splitting a multipack, and Coca Cola very much do care!

 

[35B]

That's definitely not gift aid then. You're not allowed to get anything for your donation, be it a product or service. So if it's a donation fare you're getting a train ride for your donation. That's not permitted under gift aid

Not quite true. Where a visitor attraction charges a Gift Aid fare, they actually have to offer a concession in return for that increased donation. That may be through annual membership (the NYMR option, which I've seen previously at Eden Project), or a purchasing concession (mentioned at Talyllyn, also encountered at Chatsworth).

The quid pro quo is that the charity gets more income, all of which is classed as a donation (and therefore gets Gift Aid from eligible donors*); the risk for the charity is the cost of not getting admissions/providing the discount.

* - To note, not all visitors will be able to Gift Aid their donations. Every Gift Aid donation is subject to an HMRC mandated standard disclaimer which makes the individual liable for any tax that is overpaid to the charity as Gift Aid. As a Gift Aid administrator, I've had to refund claimed amounts to HMRC because donors have received letters from HMRC telling them that they had claimed Gift Aid when they didn't pay enough Income Tax and/or Capital Gains Tax.

 

[MP33]

As well as the Byelaws relating to Fare Evasion. Has any prosecution been attempted under the Byelaws relating to trespassing and entering unauthorised areas.

 

[Egg Centric]

Maybe true but I place this in the same catagory as the alleged offence of opening other peoples mail that is posted through ones door or breaking up multipacks of cans of Coca Cola which say on them not for individual resale
No one knows No one cares and what would they do about it even if they did care?

Careful with that, we'll be giving immigration advice next*


*My private joke - amuses me how many of the "that's not a fine, only a court can fine" crew also like to claim that we cannot give immigration advice while by most readings of the act in question we actually can, it's just against forum rules for legit reasons.

Drastically off-topic, but if you are a retailer where you are in a position to buy directly from the Coca Cola Company, they will often supply you with resources like branded signage, fridges, etc. and you'll get a favourable rate. They will also come and check from time-to-time that you're displaying those assets and merchandising their products in exactly the way they want. If, on one of those inspections, they find you have split a multipack and put those cans in the fridge you'll be in breach of contract and all that nice stuff goes away in an instant.

So, there are commercial consequences for splitting a multipack, and Coca Cola very much do care!

And then there's Costco which I also find perplexing. Anyone with the slightest wherewithal can get a Costco membership, despite the claimed restrictions. Brands selling to it must know this by now. So why do they persist to provide it with all these offers? Some confusing discretion?