Has First’s bus selling policy changed?

[Worm]

There used to be a time when you’d never see an ex-First bus on the resale market, except for where they’d sold off business units. The policy being to run the busses into ground and scrap them.

Now Ensign are selling buses that appear to have come directly from First, has the policy changed?

A few examples;

Volvo B7TL

Ensignbus has the biggest selection of single and double deck buses for sale in the UK.

www.ensignbus.com

Optare Solos. 2005

Optare Solos. 2005 29 & 30 Seats for sale in London

www.ensignbus.com

Volvo B7Ls 2002

Volvo B7Ls 2002 for sale in London

www.ensignbus.com

 

[carlberry]

I believe it changed a while ago (several years), First Bristol even prepared several vehicles and repainted them for new owners a few years ago. It's possibly the first time they've sold to Ensign.

 

[cnjb8]

There used to be a time when you’d never see an ex-First bus on the resale market, except for where they’d sold off business units. The policy being to run the busses into ground and scrap them.

Now Ensign are selling buses that appear to have come directly from First, has the policy changed?

A few examples;

Volvo B7TL

Ensignbus has the biggest selection of single and double deck buses for sale in the UK.

www.ensignbus.com

Optare Solos. 2005

Optare Solos. 2005 29 & 30 Seats for sale in London

www.ensignbus.com

Volvo B7Ls 2002

Volvo B7Ls 2002 for sale in London

www.ensignbus.com

Yes Ensign have purchased quite a few older B7TLs, but most so far have gone for scrap. While former First Solos have been selling better.
Maybe Ensign has only just seen market value in purchasing these vehicles.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

Been happening for a few years. Even think Ensign took some coaches a few years ago in part ex for Solos now in Cornwall.

 

[leedslad82]

In Yorkshire first have sold a few buses over the last couple of years to craig temples operations at tockwith

 

[David Verity]

The scrap or burn policy was a feature of the Lockhead municipal mentality. Now First have a more enlightened policy towards vehicle acquisition or leasing. It's led to not only selling vehicles in running order but also acquiring vehicles coming off lease from other operators. East Scotland is a good example of picking up second hand vehicles at sensible prices.

 

[Robertj21a]

I believe it changed a while ago (several years), First Bristol even prepared several vehicles and repainted them for new owners a few years ago. It's possibly the first time they've sold to Ensign.

Yes, quite some years ago (once Lockhead was out of the way ?). Weren't minibuses (and coaches ?) excluded from the resale ban ?

 

[cnjb8]

By selling London, they had a load of surplus buses to transfer around. They have done the same with Bolton. It looks like First keeps relying on selling and loaning for fleet replacement.

 

[fgwrich]

The scrap or burn policy was a feature of the Lockhead municipal mentality. Now First have a more enlightened policy towards vehicle acquisition or leasing. It's led to not only selling vehicles in running order but also acquiring vehicles coming off lease from other operators. East Scotland is a good example of picking up second hand vehicles at sensible prices.

Indeed, First's policy has certainly changed somewhat with regards to purchasing second hand vehicles. After the collapse of West Greyhound, First took on a rather mixed collection of second hand vehicles: Some of the ex WG Solos, a handful of Ex Lothian Super Pointer Darts and the ex Reading Buses Solar's come to mind. The recent batch of open top conversions for Cornwall continues this with the ex First / Ex Metroline Enviros, Ex Lothian and Ex EYMS vehicles coming through Ensign.

 

[carlberry]

By selling London, they had a load of surplus buses to transfer around. They have done the same with Bolton. It looks like First keeps relying on selling and loaning for fleet replacement.

I dont remember many being transfered from London at the time of the sale, indeed the loss of London meant that the policy of transfering out of London after they were too old for contracts came to an end. They have retreated in a number of areas that resulted in the vehicles being retained, there were several examples around the time that the low floor requirement started to kick in. Bolton was just part of the deal wheras the other Manchester deal with Go Ahead meant that Go Ahead kept the vehicles. The same happened with Stagecoach in Chester and Wigan.

 

[carlberry]

Indeed, First's policy has certainly changed somewhat with regards to purchasing second hand vehicles. After the collapse of West Greyhound, First took on a rather mixed collection of second hand vehicles: Some of the ex WG Solos, a handful of Ex Lothian Super Pointer Darts and the ex Reading Buses Solar's come to mind. The recent batch of open top conversions for Cornwall continues this with the ex First / Ex Metroline Enviros, Ex Lothian and Ex EYMS vehicles coming through Ensign.

They did purchase quite a large number of double deckers about 2005 that had been returned by Stagecoach ex lease.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

I dont remember many being transfered from London at the time of the sale, indeed the loss of London meant that the policy of transfering out of London after they were too old for contracts came to an end. They have retreated in a number of areas that resulted in the vehicles being retained, there were several examples around the time that the low floor requirement started to kick in. Bolton was just part of the deal wheras the other Manchester deal with Go Ahead meant that Go Ahead kept the vehicles. The same happened with Stagecoach in Chester and Wigan.

I think the First London ops sold to Metroline and Tower retained their vehicles. The only one I recall that did result in vehicles released into group was the sale the previous year of Northumberland Park to Go Ahead. There were a batch of e400s that went to Leicester and are now in West of England or Essex.

As such suggest, it all depends on the deal struck. Rotala when they bought Worcs didn't agree with the NBV of some fleet so never acquired them, and could draft in their own fleet. Similarly in Bolton, they preferred to buy new (plus some judicious acquisitions and drafting in) and not have the issue of retrofitting middle aged fleet to meet clean air zones.

Go Ahead and Stagecoach have taken different decisions in their acquisitions of First fleets.

I would be surprised if many of the Eclipses still on loan to Rotala will see service again with First though.

 

[CM]

They did purchase quite a large number of double deckers about 2005 that had been returned by Stagecoach ex lease.

That could be the P-EFL batch of Northern Counties bodied Volvo Olympians, some of which ended up with First Edinburgh/Midland Bluebird.

 

[bussnapperwm]

As such suggest, it all depends on the deal struck. Rotala when they bought Worcs didn't agree with the NBV of some fleet so never acquired them, and could draft in their own fleet.

If I remember right did, Rotala did buy 3 E300s, some of the P/R/VX54 reg pointers, 3 Lances and some of the president's when they brought Redditch and Kidderminster.

I know one of the tridents went to Grant Palmer, and two went to Coastal Liner and although diamond officially sold a lance into preservation the same day takeover happened, they were still using it nearly a week after.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

If I remember right did, Rotala did buy 3 E300s, some of the P/R/VX54 reg pointers, 3 Lances and some of the president's when they brought Redditch and Kidderminster.

Correct, they still have 3 54 plate Darts. The old stuff had next to no NBV anyway so wasn’t really an issue. Hence why I said some fleet wasn’t bought.

 

[MB162435]

Is one of the terms of sale still that the new owner can't buy a bus off First directly for use on a competing route, or has that policy been dropped now?

 

[David Verity]

Is one of the terms of sale still that the new owner can't buy a bus off First directly for use on a competing route, or has that policy been dropped now?

So far as I am aware First don't sell vehicles direct but rather pass them to dealers. I wouldn't imagine that it would help their case by laying down stipulations like that.

 

[MB162435]

So far as I am aware First don't sell vehicles direct but rather pass them to dealers. I wouldn't imagine that it would help their case by laying down stipulations like that.

I wouldn't of thought it would either, and when it's going through the dealer it could make it much harder for them to sell and not really up to First anymore

Did read about that rule years ago, so could of been long gone

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

I wouldn't of thought it would either, and when it's going through the dealer it could make it much harder for them to sell and not really up to First anymore

Did read about that rule years ago, so could of been long gone

The sales do go via dealers or scrappers (of whom some are one and the same). Ensign is a common route (though they did also someone in Devon and some via a dealer near Wigan). Ensign sold Kernow 53814 to OTS in Cornwall though in reality, it didn't physically pass through Ensign's Purfleet base. Kernow Dart 42871 was similarly disposed of and went to Carmel in Bristol where it was in full FK Urban livery and it was a surprise to still see it as such 9 months later although the First logo had been removed. It's now been scrapped though.

First WoE did sell a number of B7TL/ALX to independents (don't know who was the intermediary) and they were modified to PSVAR compliance. Most were repainted except W805PAE that ended up in First colours with Rosevidney in Cornwall.

 

[MB162435]

The sales do go via dealers or scrappers (of whom some are one and the same). Ensign is a common route and it was via them that 53814 passed to OTS though in reality, it didn't physically pass through Ensign in Purfleet. One of the 53 plate Darts (42871) was similarly disposed of and went to Carmel in Bristol where it was in full FK Urban livery and it was a surprise to still see it as such 9 months later. It's now been scrapped though

Suppose it opens the sale up to a wider audience with dealers more experienced with what suits who, and saves First a lot of bother

53814 has proved to be quite useful to OTS whilst they wait for their delayed stock, and even Kernow was pleased it stayed in Cornwall with a respected operator

The 53 plate darts were lovely and was sad to see them go, but its not very different to buses going round in preservation in First livery really, but First don't seem to mind buses in their livery with a different operator as long as it is debranded

 

[Whiteway215]

The sales do go via dealers or scrappers (of whom some are one and the same). Ensign is a common route (though they did also someone in Devon and some via a dealer near Wigan). Ensign sold Kernow 53814 to OTS in Cornwall though in reality, it didn't physically pass through Ensign's Purfleet base. Kernow Dart 42871 was similarly disposed of and went to Carmel in Bristol where it was in full FK Urban livery and it was a surprise to still see it as such 9 months later although the First logo had been removed. It's now been scrapped though.
First WoE did sell a number of B7TL/ALX to independents (don't know who was the intermediary) and they were modified to PSVAR compliance. Most were repainted except W805PAE that ended up in First colours with Rosevidney in Cornwall.

If I remember correctly it was dealer Nigel McCree Bus & Coach who handled the FWoE B7TL/ALXs. 30857/67/70 32005/16-19/21-24 were withdrawn around Dec 2016. 32001-4/6-9/11-15 have survived much longer, some converted to open top and others as university students’ transport. I can’t see the Bath Unibus ones 32003/7/14/15 coming back into service after being SORNed though. But you never know!

 

[randyrippley]

last summer there were a small number of First purple liveried double deckers still emblazoned with adverts for Bath running around on Preston bus services. Only saw them a handful of times, quite confusing

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

its not very different to buses going round in preservation in First livery really

It is quite different if it’s for hire and reward, and if average punters are misled.

If I remember correctly it was dealer Nigel McCree Bus & Coach

Thanks. I couldn’t remember but that sounds right. I know certain other stuff like Primo 57000 went via him.

last summer there were a small number of First purple liveried double deckers still emblazoned with adverts for Bath running around on Preston bus services. Only saw them a handful of times, quite confusing

Think you may be mistaken. AFAIK, Rotala have had no ex First West of England fleet. They did have some ex Wessex deckers in Bristol Uni dark red (or ex London red).

 

[randyrippley]

Think you may be mistaken. AFAIK, Rotala have had no ex First West of England fleet. They did have some ex Wessex deckers in Bristol Uni dark red (or ex London red).

no, not mistaken
unless you can think of anyone else running them on stage service through the main Preston shopping street.
I've seen the red ones, looked better suited to a scrap yard than public service

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

no, not mistaken
unless you can think of anyone else running them on stage service through the main Preston shopping street.
I've seen the red ones, looked better suited to a scrap yard than public service

Well I’m struggling to recall any First Bath purple deckers other than the ones mentioned by Whiteway (Unibus ALXs) and they definitely weren’t in Preston.

 

[randyrippley]

Well I’m struggling to recall any First Bath purple deckers other than the ones mentioned by Whiteway (Unibus ALXs) and they definitely weren’t in Preston.

a trial before possible purchase maybe? They weren't around for long

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

a trial before possible purchase maybe? They weren't around for long

Rotala don’t by W reg B7TLs and as I said, they were still in Bath