Has on train entertainment had its day?

[sor]

Exactly this! There's nothing you can see on your phone screen that's anywhere near as interesting as the beauty of the English countryside you pass through on a train journey.

The only time I find WiFi on a train useful is if my train is delayed and I need to know if I'll make an onward connection. I genuinely feel sorry for people who spend their train journeys obsessively starting at their phones, feeling that they have to spend every waking minute being "entertained".

It is when you've done the same trip tens or hundreds of times, or are rather bored of seeing empty fields and people's country piles. Or indeed if you have a window at all, when you're on a train where the seats don't line up. It's not exactly Swiss Railway Journeys is it - although with the phone or tablet you appear to want to criticise I actually could go and watch that...

(the "staring at the phone" argument is so strange, as if it's not simply a 21st century version of reading a book or a newspaper!)

 

[TUC]

Since most trains have WiFi these days, and many people have phones or other portable devices, there isn't really a need for train companies to provide their own entertainment channels any more.

Train wifi is not intended to be used for multiple passengers streaming video content, and mobile data will quickly be used up by it too.

Exactly this! There's nothing you can see on your phone screen that's anywhere near as interesting as the beauty of the English countryside you pass through on a train journey.

Not if it's nightime!

Besides, the rugged hills of Northern England, yes. The flat, endless fields of Southern England can be a bit duller.

 

[swt_passenger]

Is it not possible for the railways to offer all their masts to the mobile operators for suitable fees???????

Definitely not. I remember a thread about this some years ago, highlighting that the permitted development rights they’re installed under only allow the masts to be put up because they are operational railway communication systems.

But even then during the GSM(R) rollout some local councils tried their utmost to prevent them anyway.

 

[Recessio]

Besides, the rugged hills of Northern England, yes. The flat, endless fields of Southern England can be a bit duller.

I was going to say! The view on my stretch around Newhaven is mostly "depressed port town past its best" and "crap industrial estate", not "beautiful English countryside"!

 

[Skie]

HS2 will have some pretty spectacular views of, erm, tunnels. And cutting walls. And sound damping materials. Then a quick jaunt across a viaduct or two.

Hopefully HS2 trains will have decent wifi and onboard entertainment, but I seriously doubt it and the trains will be as low spec as possible.

 

[6Gman]

They're still there on Voyagers -- the little control panel and headphone socket between the two seats!

Used to listen to Radio 4 on the way home from Euston.

It was good.

 

[AndyMike]

I think not only have onboard systems had their day, so has WiFi really. A lot of people already have unlimited data and that number will grow. The rest just download before leaving home. Car systems are now set to stream Spotify, Netflix, Prime, iPlayer, etc so train passengers expect the same selection they can get in a car. Not a limited choice selected by the TOC. in their day, these things were cutting edge, but those days have passed. Remember 390s and Voyagers having buttons on the armrest and you could plug headphones in!

This would be all very well were it not for the fact that there are some major routes on which a constant 4G signal seems an impossible luxury. London-Sheffield is a case in point.

 

[Dougal2345]

Used to listen to Radio 4 on the way home from Euston.

It was good.

What "channels" are/were available from those little panels? Just BBC radio stations? How did the train receive them, FM or AM? Was the signal lost in tunnels?

 

[philosopher]

This would be all very well were it not for the fact that there are some major routes on which a constant 4G signal seems an impossible luxury. London-Sheffield is a case in point.

Most tablets and laptops do not have 4G, so a lot may use Wi-Fi for these devices.

 

[43066]

I was going to say! The view on my stretch around Newhaven is mostly "depressed port town past its best" and "crap industrial estate", not "beautiful English countryside"!

You’ve not noticed the South Downs, then?

 

[Recessio]

You’ve not noticed the South Downs, then?

That's not around Newhaven, that's past it on the way to Lewes.

 

[Agent_Squash]

You’ve not noticed the South Downs, then?

The first thing I saw coming into Newhaven (admittedly on a boat, but still) was a large pile of rubbish.

Some places justify the need for entertainment at times!

 

[43066]

That's not around Newhaven, that's past it on the way to Lewes.

The South Downs are literally either side of Newhaven. You have Brighton/Devil’s dyke/Ditcling Beacon to the west, Cuckmere Haven and Birling Gap to the east. Get out of Newhaven and start walking!

The circular Lewes walk I’ve done crosses the railway branch to Newhaven - stunning scenery.

The first thing I saw coming into Newhaven (admittedly on a boat, but still) was a large pile of rubbish.

Some places justify the need for entertainment at times!

Newhaven is pretty horrendous by all accounts (I’ve never been properly into it), but some smashing scenery thereabouts.

 

[Recessio]

The South Downs are literally either side of Newhaven. You have Brighton/Devil’s dyke/Ditcling Beacon to the west, Cuckmere Haven and Birling Gap to the east. Get out of Newhaven and start walking!

Newhaven is pretty horrendous by all accounts (I’ve never been properly into it), but some smashing scenery thereabouts.

I am familiar with both the South Downs and Newhaven, given that I live in Seaford. And trust me, I'd love something else to look at rather than out the windows for the stretch through Newhaven...

 

[43066]

I am familiar with both the South Downs and Newhaven, given that I live in Seaford. And trust me, I'd love something else to look at rather than out the windows for the stretch through Newhaven...

Get out and do it… You live in a good location for it. I’d walk these endless downland miles every day if I could…

 

[Jimini]

The South Downs are literally either side of Newhaven. You have Brighton/Devil’s dyke/Ditcling Beacon to the west, Cuckmere Haven and Birling Gap to the east. Get out of Newhaven and start walking!

The circular Lewes walk I’ve done crosses the railway branch to Newhaven - stunning scenery.



Newhaven is pretty horrendous by all accounts (I’ve never been properly into it), but some smashing scenery thereabouts.

Cycling up Ditchling Beacon is one of the hardest physical challenges I've done over the years. What a view and descent down to Brighton though!

 

[Skie]

What "channels" are/were available from those little panels? Just BBC radio stations? How did the train receive them, FM or AM? Was the signal lost in tunnels?

Some BBC and Virgin radio too. I recall it being prerecorded stuff so no loss of signal, but one or two of the channels might have been live too. Long time ago and it never really took off - especially when they wanted a lot of money in the shop for cheap and nasty headphones. They were introduced before smartphones were even a thing (before the first iPhone) so if you were carting headphones around you had something to use them for anyway.

 

[Jimini]

Those Volo coaches where hideous really but quite revolutionary back in the day.

I've just randomly found this on an old group chat on my phone, so thought I'd share!

 

[Sonik]

HS2 will have some pretty spectacular views of, erm, tunnels. And cutting walls. And sound damping materials. Then a quick jaunt across a viaduct or two.

Hopefully HS2 trains will have decent wifi and onboard entertainment, but I seriously doubt it and the trains will be as low spec as possible.

The HS2 train spec looks pretty well though out to be fair, I think much has been learned from recent procurement debacles.

IIRC There is no Wi-Fi spec yet because they want to be able to use the latest tech when the time comes, but equipment space, power and cabling will be there to enable it.

I hope they do get the Wi-Fi sorted (no technical reason why not) because if done properly it's a very big sell for using trains that other modes can't really match, especially planes where Wi-Fi is normally slow and quite expensive.

I think most people would probably prefer using their own online services Netflix etc. vs an onboard offering, especially if the Wi-Fi is free.

 

[Energy]

The HS2 train spec looks pretty well though out to be fair, I think much has been learned from recent procurement debacles.

IIRC There is no Wi-Fi spec yet because they want to be able to use the latest tech when the time comes, but equipment space, power and cabling will be there to enable it.

I hope they do get the Wi-Fi sorted (no technical reason why not) because if done properly it's a very big sell for using trains that other modes can't really match, especially planes where Wi-Fi is normally slow and quite expensive.

I think most people would probably prefer using their own online services Netflix etc. vs an onboard offering, especially if the Wi-Fi is free.

Its fine if its just pre cabled, even was WiFi 6E was specified then it'll still be out of date when thr HS2 trains are made.

 

[anamyd]

Some BBC and Virgin radio too. I recall it being prerecorded stuff so no loss of signal, but one or two of the channels might have been live too.

There were also artists' channels, such as the Mr. Scruff channel I remember from going on 390s "back in the day", 2005-ish.

 

[anamyd]

My on-train entertainment is listening to music on my smartphone with my (decent) earphones. 0.95V headphone jack, equalised, triple-flange tips. Full-range sound including sub-bass.

 

[takno]

I think most people would probably prefer using their own online services Netflix etc. vs an onboard offering, especially if the Wi-Fi is free.

The Wifi isn't going to get good enough to manage a hundred or so people streaming content from their own services. The on-board systems work by having the content stored on-board the train on a media server. Because the data is stored locally, the 4g or 5g connection from the train to the outside world doesn't get used at all, and the only thing that has to work is the WiFi connection in the carriages, which generally isn't the problem anyway.

The current LNER trial it sounds interesting in that it replaces whatever bunch of dross has been selected and bought by the train operator (or the service they are rebadging) with an edge server for ITV Hub, and potentially more interesting operators down the line.

In principle, edge servers can be updated via a mix of push and pull. Push means that whenever ITV Hub adds popular new content it gets sent to all the trains, ready for people to watch. Pull means that if you choose to watch something a bit more obscure it will download it on the fly (keeping a copy in case anybody else wants to watch it later). Because the majority of people are watching the same 100 or so programmes at any one time, the amount which has to be fetched overall is much lower and can be accommodated by the 5g connection.

The really great thing about providing edge servers for popular networks is that you are using your own login and your own subscription, so they aren't paying for any rights at all. The logging in bit, and the bit where your browser or app gets a key to unlock the video, does have to go over the 5g, but that's a really small amount of data.

This is a really interesting way forward for the industry. I'd describe it as a new way forward, but the first time I heard about it was about 15 years ago when the BBC were proposing to put a copy of all the iPlayer content in every telephone exchange to save bandwidth. It's been spreading out across the internet for years, but it's now become relatively easy and safe for the various services to just provide a the software to do the job in this kind of environment.

 

[Sonik]

This is a really interesting way forward for the industry. I'd describe it as a new way forward, but the first time I heard about it was about 15 years ago when the BBC were proposing to put a copy of all the iPlayer content in every telephone exchange to save bandwidth. It's been spreading out across the internet for years, but it's now become relatively easy and safe for the various services to just provide a the software to do the job in this kind of environment.

Good points, there are lots off possibilities.

ISPs have been using local caching for years but it's actually got less popular as the price of core bandwith has plummeted, along with increased use of direct peering, and dynamic personalized content like social media. On a train with a limited uplink though it has a lot of potential like you say.

I do think the railway should be able to deliver better coverage at marginal cost than e.g. the motorway network, because networks are needed anyway, for TOC stuff like PID updates and CCTV, as well as all the safety critical stuff. The extra lineside and on train hardware is relatively cheap; it's the fibre, towers and leaky feeder that by far costs the most and these can easily be utilized by multiple networks (and they routinely are in the Telco provider world, which includes NR in some cases)

The big advantage with online services, as you pointed out, is that the railway doesn't need to get involved at all with the content and accounts stuff that is a real headache to manage and update on a limited scale like an onboard offer.

 

[dk1]

I've just randomly found this on an old group chat on my phone, so thought I'd share!

Seemed so advanced at the time lol

 

[Kite159]

The current LNER trial it sounds interesting in that it replaces whatever bunch of dross has been selected and bought by the train operator (or the service they are rebadging) with an edge server for ITV Hub, and potentially more interesting operators down the line.

So replacing whatever bunch of dross which got selected by the train operator with another bunch of adverts mixed up with some pure dross from ITV.

As long as the masses don't decide to play out an old episode of a talk show featuring some random 'celebrities' promoting a new book/film or a bunch of people talking about what underwear they are wearing as per one of the chat shows on that channel.

 

[takno]

So replacing whatever bunch of dross which got selected by the train operator with another bunch of adverts mixed up with some pure dross from ITV.

As long as the masses don't decide to play out an old episode of a talk show featuring some random 'celebrities' promoting a new book/film or a bunch of people talking about what underwear they are wearing as per one of the chat shows on that channel.

ITV Hub isn't the opportunity. The opportunity is doing it with other services which aren't garbage. That said, somebody is clearly still watching ITV, even if it isn't you or me.

 

[Techniquest]

ITV Hub isn't the opportunity. The opportunity is doing it with other services which aren't garbage. That said, somebody is clearly still watching ITV, even if it isn't you or me.

Indeed. Personally I don't like ITV, it seems to purposefully try and make itself worse every year! Channel 4 and E4 aren't much better in that respect!

On-train entertainment is such a non-thing for me that I actually forgot Avanti do some sort of streaming service. With the amount of time I've been on their trains recently, I could have used it a lot. I personally had YouTube on with my mobile data instead, and I suspect the masses do similar with social media.

As I have 16GB of data every month, which I normally don't use more than 3GB of, then on-train WiFi isn't really a concern now for me. Just as well, given how the WiFi and my phone often don't want to work with each other anyway!

I'd say the TOCs would be better off just not bothering with the on-train entertainment services, but clearly someone somewhere thinks it's worth it!

 

[Bungle73]

I usually find on-train WiFi fine. I'm usually able to stream radio on Southeastern. It evens seems to stay connected (to an extent) in the HS1 tunnels out of London, which is a one up over 4G.

Can't speak for trains as I rarely travel on the sort of Intercity style services that offer them (living in London and the Southern region), but I notice that on coach travel the equivalent systems have basically died off. Tried to use one once when I was running out of data on my mobile and it didn't even work anymore... Probably not high up on their list of repairs

Southeastern used to have an onboard entertainment system one could connect to. I never used it though. It seemed to disappear when Govia lost the franchise.

 

[GoneSouth]

"The railway" needs to resolve all current "Faraday's Cage" issues (specifically for 220/221/390). The problem would then pretty much "go away".

I’ve managed to stream internet radio all the way from York to Bristol on a voyager, ironically the only difficult section with cut outs was approaching Birmingham from Tamworth. (largest centre of population on the XC network so not unreasonable to expect decent cellular data coverage).