Have any London - Bournemouth trains ever completely bypassed Southampton?

[PTR 444]

In today’s world, the only competitive rail route from London to Bournemouth passes through Southampton Central, therefore any blockade at or west of SOU necessitates a replacement bus service. Before the Beeching Axe however, it would have also been possible to route a train from London to Bournemouth via Andover and Fordingbridge, despite being a longer distance than the main line via Southampton.

This begs me to ask the question, have any London - Bournemouth trains ever used this route whenever the SWML was closed for engineering work? It would have taken much longer due to the fact that Bournemouth - Fordingbridge was a bit of a dog-leg via Wimborne, and the Laverstock Chord didn’t exist back then so trains would have needed to have reversed at Salisbury. Even so, I reckon if such a diversion had existed, for passengers it would have more convenient than changing modes, especially since the A31 and A338 roads hadn’t been dualled back then so a coach journey would have been slower.

 

[Snow1964]

There are references in some books on Dorset railways to obscure trains via Salisbury, or portions detached from West of England trains and running via Fordingbridge.

There are also references to trains which ran via Romsey and reversed near Redbridge due to engineering work at Southampton

So presumably it has happened, during 140 years, but probably fairly rarely.

Until 1930s was still original route to Bournemouth (extension of Christchurch branch via Hurn).

Interestingly the two LSWR cut off lines Lymington Junction-Christchurch and Hurstbourne-Fullerton both build in mid 1880s were laid out for mainline running and have almost identical stations, so were both primarily designed for through trains, rather than serving locally.

 

[PTR 444]

There are references in some books on Dorset railways to obscure trains via Salisbury, or portions detached from West of England trains and running via Fordingbridge.

There are also references to trains which ran via Romsey and reversed near Redbridge due to engineering work at Southampton

This is interesting. Presumably this couldn’t be done now by most London - Bournemouth passenger trains as the line through Andover to Redbridge isn’t electrified. I wonder if XC have done this manouvere in more recent times however.

So presumably it has happened, during 140 years, but probably fairly rarely.

Until 1930s was still original route to Bournemouth (extension of Christchurch branch via Hurn).

Interestingly the two LSWR cut off lines Lymington Junction-Christchurch and Hurstbourne-Fullerton both build in mid 1880s were laid out for mainline running and have almost identical stations, so were both primarily designed for through trains, rather than serving locally.

Between 1888 and 1935 there were two routes from Brockenhurst to Christchurch, although via Ringwood was much longer, hence why it closed way before Beeching.

In hindsight, it’s a bit unfortunate that the Salisbury - Bournemouth railway went via Verwood rather than Ringwood, otherwise it could have easily connected with the Ringwood - Christchurch line and helped maintain its viability, as well as making Salisbury - Bournemouth faster.

 

[Gloster]

Although it was not a full train, there was for some years, possibly quite a few, a through Waterloo-Dorchester News van or vans that ran via Salisbury. It was part of the West of England News train to Salisbury and continued to Dorchester via Fordingbridge and the Broadstone-Hamworthy Junction line on the very early (around 03.45) train from Salisbury.

When they were doing the early planning for the reinstatement of the Laverstock curve, they told us that the justification was to allow container trains to reach the terminals in Southampton while Southampton Tunnel was being refurbished. I don’t remember it happening, but when BR and predecessors kept passengers on trains, it was quite likely that there were diversions with Salisbury and Redbridge reversals.

 

[33011]

I remember units being hauled by class 33s from Eastleigh going via Andover in the 80s. I have also read in books that when the line north of Winchester was closed they used to go via Alton on what is now The watercress line. In very recent times XC services have gone via Andover from Southampton.

 

[30907]

This is interesting. Presumably this couldn’t be done now by most London - Bournemouth passenger trains as the line through Andover to Redbridge isn’t electrified. I wonder if XC have done this manouvere in more recent times however.

Fairly sure they have (though not by the direct Stockbridge route!)

In hindsight, it’s a bit unfortunate that the Salisbury - Bournemouth railway went via Verwood rather than Ringwood, otherwise it could have easily connected with the Ringwood - Christchurch line and helped maintain its viability, as well as making Salisbury - Bournemouth faster.

I suspect Verwood added potential traffic (Ringwood already being catered for), and was more direct to Wimborne/Poole/Dorchester, while Bournemouth wasn't significant in the early 1860s when the line was being planned. After all, it was the Salisbury and Dorset Junction.

More generally, a route via Andover would only have been needed when Winchester Jn-Eastleigh was blocked, otherwise you could go via Alton and "over the Alps." And in the days of jointed track and relatively infrequent services relaying didn't require such long possessions.

 

[Gloster]

In my opinion BR and predecessors would normally have introduced Single Line Working when there was engineering work and only resorted to diversions when the work completely blocked both lines for a lengthy period. As far as St Denys there were obvious alternative routes, so it was only for work between there and Poole or (pre-1964) Brockenhurst that diversions were required. As there weren’t many overnight trains, particularly at weekends, there was a longer window for major work than on many mainlines.

 

[181]

There are also references to trains which ran via Romsey and reversed near Redbridge due to engineering work at Southampton

This is interesting. Presumably this couldn’t be done now by most London - Bournemouth passenger trains as the line through Andover to Redbridge isn’t electrified. I wonder if XC have done this manouvere in more recent times however.

When they were doing the early planning for the reinstatement of the Laverstock curve, they told us that the justification was to allow container trains to reach the terminals in Southampton while Southampton Tunnel was being refurbished. I don’t remember it happening, but when BR and predecessors kept passengers on trains, it was quite likely that there were diversions with Salisbury and Redbridge reversals.

In very recent times XC services have gone via Andover from Southampton.

Fairly sure they have (though not by the direct Stockbridge route!)

I have a vague impression (from seeing engineering work posters and being on XC trains which were due to be diverted after I'd disembarked) that diverting via the Laverstock loop is not uncommon for XC. The one time that I know for sure that it happened (as I went that way, on one of my last train journeys before Covid) was during the blockage at Eastleigh in early 2020 (track damage from a freight train derailment, wasn't it?). That doesn't meet the OP's criterion of avoiding Southampton, though, as the trains reversed in the station, going in and out of the west end. I don't know whether they ever reverse at Redbridge -- presumaby they would want to serve Southampton station if possible, and does the signalling allow reversals at Redbridge?

 

[nw1]

I wonder if during the days of REPs and TCs (with 33s push-pulling the latter) any Waterloo-Bournemouth services were routed via Laverstock to Southampton Central (admittedly not quite the question) and reversed there? Can see that if there was a block at St Denys, for example, this might be desirable.

Different question but related, did the now-common diversion via Guildford, Havant and Fareham ever happen during the REP/TC pre-Solent electrification days, again with 33s push-pulling the consist over the unelectrified bit (e.g from Havant to Southampton)? I lived close to the Portsmouth Direct in the 80s and never once saw diverted REP/TC consists, though admittedly I rarely visited the line on Sundays.

In hindsight, it’s a bit unfortunate that the Salisbury - Bournemouth railway went via Verwood rather than Ringwood, otherwise it could have easily connected with the Ringwood - Christchurch line and helped maintain its viability, as well as making Salisbury - Bournemouth faster.

Indeed, the natural route for a line south of Salisbury would be Fordingbridge - Ringwood - Christchurch. Presumably the line was built before Bournemouth became a place of note.

Had such a direct line been built I can imagine a line with stops only at Downton, Fordingbridge and Ringwood before Christchurch would still be viable today.

 

[zwk500]

This is interesting. Presumably this couldn’t be done now by most London - Bournemouth passenger trains as the line through Andover to Redbridge isn’t electrified. I wonder if XC have done this manouvere in more recent times however.

XC diverting via Romsey isn't that unusual, however the reversals are I think normally still in Southampton Central itself. I think they'd need to get special permission to reverse at Redbridge itself as it's a shunt not a main aspect route, although it probably has been done at some point.

As Luck would have it, trains are doing exactly this today: https://www.opentraintimes.com/schedule/G25027/2023-12-10, with reversals at Southampton Central itself.

 

[D6130]

Different question but related, did the now-common diversion via Guildford, Havant and Fareham ever happen during the REP/TC pre-Solent electrification days, again with 33s push-pulling the consist over the unelectrified bit (e.g from Havant to Southampton)? I lived close to the Portsmouth Direct in the 80s and never once saw diverted REP/TC consists, though admittedly I rarely visited the line on Sundays.

This happened on a few occasions when I lived in Petersfield in the mid-1970s, with class 33/1s providing the traction between Havant and Southampton. Slightly 0/T, but somewhere in a box in the attic I have a couple of photos of class 33/0s roaring up the 1 in 80 gradient past Liss Common crossing with 11 coach boat trains from Southampton Docks to Waterloo....which would have been hauled by the rather more powerful class 74 electro-diesels when running on their normal route via Basingstoke.

 

[Snow1964]

Different question but related, did the now-common diversion via Guildford, Havant and Fareham ever happen during the REP/TC pre-Solent electrification days, again with 33s push-pulling the consist over the unelectrified bit (e.g from Havant to Southampton)? I lived close to the Portsmouth Direct in the 80s and never once saw diverted REP/TC consists, though admittedly I rarely visited the line on Sundays.

I grew up by the line, and back in 1970s Sunday timetables were seasonal, the winter timetable was basically one train per hour west of Southampton (all stations to Weymouth except Millbrook, Beaulieu Road ad Holton Heath from memory). Sunday morning winter trains were often 33/1 with a 4TC.

I have forgotten now, but sure some of these must have done diesel diversions when engineering works were on, in those days you took alternative route when available, not a bus.

There were definitely some late evening workings with 33/1s to Eastleigh (to rotate the locos back to their depot, they were based at Eastleigh).

XC diverting via Romsey isn't that unusual, however the reversals are I think normally still in Southampton Central itself. I think they'd need to get special permission to reverse at Redbridge itself as it's a shunt not a main aspect route, although it probably has been done at some point.

The Southampton area was still semaphore signalled until about 1981-83. A book of the area has a photograph with trailing crossover at one end of the Redbridge platforms in 1960s, but it was moved to other end of station in a mid 1970s photo. Potentially it was easier to reverse there before the current signalling.

 

[Gloster]

The Southampton area was still semaphore signalled until about 1981-83. A book of the area has a photograph with trailing crossover at one end of the Redbridge platforms in 1960s, but it was moved to other end of station in a mid 1970s photo. Potentially it was easier to reverse there before the current signalling.

The crossover at the west end of Redbridge station was replaced by one beyond the east end in February 1972. It would have been a bit of a palaver to use the new crossover for reversals as it was in the Intermediate Block Section, so continuing to Southampton where running signals could be used would, in my opinion, always be preferred.

Source: Pryer’s Signal Box Diagrams on the Romsey Signal Box website (as I haven’t got that volume).

 

[Taunton]

The easiest way to avoid Southampton used to be, of course, to change at Templecombe onto the S&D. In 1963, the 0900 Exeter service from Waterloo stopped at Templecombe at 1132. The morning Bristol to Bournemouth semi-fast service had an extended stop there, deliberately to both connect into and out of this express. Away from Templecombe at 1148, into Bournemouth West at 1302. An Up West of England express also stopped at Templecombe at 1137, making Exeter to Bournemouth, another challenging journey nowadays without visiting Southampton, straightforward as well.

 

[nw1]

The Southampton area was still semaphore signalled until about 1981-83.

That in itself is an amazing statistic. I associate semaphore signalling with the 1960s or before, certainly on main lines such as this - though admittedly it was still present on the (then still rather rural and bucolic) Oxford-Banbury section in the early/mid 80s.

Amazing to think the lines in the Southampton area were still semaphore as late as 1981/82.

This happened on a few occasions when I lived in Petersfield in the mid-1970s, with class 33/1s providing the traction between Havant and Southampton. Slightly 0/T, but somewhere in a box in the attic I have a couple of photos of class 33/0s roaring up the 1 in 80 gradient past Liss Common crossing with 11 coach boat trains from Southampton Docks to Waterloo....which would have been hauled by the rather more powerful class 74 electro-diesels when running on their normal route via Basingstoke.

Ah ok thanks. Could also possibly have happened in the 80s, but as I said my visits to, or near, the line were rare on Sundays - so much so that I never knew even the basic scheduled EMU diagrams for a Sunday, in sharp contrast to Mon-Sat.

 

[Gloster]

That in itself is an amazing statistic. I associate semaphore signalling with the 1960s or before, certainly on main lines such as this - though admittedly it was still present on the (then still rather rural and bucolic) Oxford-Banbury section in the early/mid 80s.

Amazing to think the lines in the Southampton area were still semaphore as late as 1981/82.

Salisbury still had semaphores with electro-pneumatic working until 1981; I know, I operated them. There were still a number of main lines with semaphores well into the 1980s: Midland, West of England, North Wales, etc.

 

[33017]

I wonder if during the days of REPs and TCs (with 33s push-pulling the latter) any Waterloo-Bournemouth services were routed via Laverstock to Southampton Central (admittedly not quite the question) and reversed there? Can see that if there was a block at St Denys, for example, this might be desirable.

My experience of 32 trains over 8 separate weekends of diversion during 1987, 1988 & 1989 was most trains ran via Chandler’s Ford but there were exceptions.

On 14th Feb 88 I had 33108 Basingstoke to Southampton via Redbridge when the other five trains I did that day went via Chandlers Ford. I have a vague recollection this was due to late-running.

The only other occasion I went that way was on 26th November 88 when all trains reversed at Southampton. That was undoubtedly the most entertaining as all trains were pairs of Cromptons dragging 10 Pig, and instead of the usual single 33/1s, 33015+33115, 33016+33039 & 33040+33053 were out (I think a fourth pair of 2 x 33/1 also played).

 

[SWTCommuter]

Back in the early 1980s, I travelled to Waterloo on a service diverted via Laverstock and Andover while work was being carried out on Southampton Tunnel. I got on at Romsey so can't say for sure if it reversed at Southampton or Redbridge. There were posters at Romsey station promoting the fact that there was a direct service to Waterloo that weekend. The train left Romsey as 4TC+4TC propelled by a Class 33. At Basingstoke the TCs coupled on to a waiting 4REP and the Class 33 was left behind. Would a similar traction swap have taken place when reversing at Southampton or Redbridge? Presumably it would have been easier to do at Southampton.

 

[30907]

Back in the early 1980s, I travelled to Waterloo on a service diverted via Laverstock and Andover while work was being carried out on Southampton Tunnel. I got on at Romsey so can't say for sure if it reversed at Southampton or Redbridge. There were posters at Romsey station promoting the fact that there was a direct service to Waterloo that weekend. The train left Romsey as 4TC+4TC propelled by a Class 33. At Basingstoke the TCs coupled on to a waiting 4REP and the Class 33 was left behind. Would a similar traction swap have taken place when reversing at Southampton or Redbridge? Presumably it would have been easier to do at Southampton.

Going to Southampton would also have made commercial sense.
I suspect the 33s worked through to Bournemouth/Weymouth, as the loco would have been at the tunnel end at Southampton, making adding a REP more complicated.

 

[nw1]

My experience of 32 trains over 8 separate weekends of diversion during 1987, 1988 & 1989 was most trains ran via Chandler’s Ford but there were exceptions.

On 14th Feb 88 I had 33108 Basingstoke to Southampton via Redbridge when the other five trains I did that day went via Chandlers Ford. I have a vague recollection this was due to late-running.

The only other occasion I went that way was on 26th November 88 when all trains reversed at Southampton. That was undoubtedly the most entertaining as all trains were pairs of Cromptons dragging 10 Pig, and instead of the usual single 33/1s, 33015+33115, 33016+33039 & 33040+33053 were out (I think a fourth pair of 2 x 33/1 also played).

Interesting, so 442s were haulable by 33s?

Never saw that, despite living close to the SWML throughout the vast majority of the 442 era (but not these very early days). I guess once the Solent electrification was complete there was less need to go via Laverstock.

 

[33017]

Back in the early 1980s, I travelled to Waterloo on a service diverted via Laverstock and Andover while work was being carried out on Southampton Tunnel. I got on at Romsey so can't say for sure if it reversed at Southampton or Redbridge. There were posters at Romsey station promoting the fact that there was a direct service to Waterloo that weekend. The train left Romsey as 4TC+4TC propelled by a Class 33. At Basingstoke the TCs coupled on to a waiting 4REP and the Class 33 was left behind. Would a similar traction swap have taken place when reversing at Southampton or Redbridge? Presumably it would have been easier to do at Southampton.

The 33/1s used to work through from Weymouth to Basingstoke.

Interesting, so 442s were haulable by 33s?

Never saw that, despite living close to the SWML throughout the vast majority of the 442 era (but not these very early days). I guess once the Solent electrification was complete there was less need to go via Laverstock.

Yes, they were designed to be dragged, and the buffers allowed that to be done by something other than a 33/1. It didn’t happen often, though, possibly not at all once Fareham was electrified.

 

[Snow1964]

Amazing to think the lines in the Southampton area were still semaphore as late as 1981/82.

They only did parts of the line during electrification in 1966-67

From memory : replaced the LSWR pneumatic signals Brookwood -Basingstoke, replaced normal semaphores Basingstoke -Swaythling. Then did 2 aspect colour lights from near Lyndhurst Road (now Ashurst New Forest) to just east of of Christchurch (except Brockenhurst -Lymington junction area). The Bournemouth-Parkstone area also got colour lights (3 aspect near Bournemouth)

Subsequently went something like (forgotten exact)
Esher-Byfleet area around 1971
Christchurch-Pokesdown (including removal of 1930s fast tracks at Pokesdown) 1971-72
Brockenhurst-Lymington area about 1978
Southampton area 1981-83

 

[PTR 444]

Indeed, the natural route for a line south of Salisbury would be Fordingbridge - Ringwood - Christchurch. Presumably the line was built before Bournemouth became a place of note.

Had such a direct line been built I can imagine a line with stops only at Downton, Fordingbridge and Ringwood before Christchurch would still be viable today.

Certainly. If this had existed it would have been a very useful diversionary route for London - Weymouth trains. The existence of such a route might have also enabled that and the Basingstoke - Salisbury line to be electrified in conjunction with the SWML to Bournemouth.

Furthermore it would have been handy for maintaining a direct Bournemouth - Bristol service post-Beeching!

 

[Taunton]

That in itself is an amazing statistic. I associate semaphore signalling with the 1960s or before, certainly on main lines such as this - though admittedly it was still present on the (then still rather rural and bucolic) Oxford-Banbury section in the early/mid 80s.

Amazing to think the lines in the Southampton area were still semaphore as late as 1981/82.

Taunton and the main line west was still semaphore until 1986. It had been previously resignalled in the widening and station rebuilding of 1932, so much of the equipment had lasted over 50 years.

 

[30907]

Taunton and the main line west was still semaphore until 1986. It had been previously resignalled in the widening and station rebuilding of 1932, so much of the equipment had lasted over 50 years.

Similarly, Southampton had been rebuilt in 1935, whereas Farnborough-Eastleigh were 1900-ish works so life-expired.

 

[nw1]

Certainly. If this had existed it would have been a very useful diversionary route for London - Weymouth trains. The existence of such a route might have also enabled that and the Basingstoke - Salisbury line to be electrified in conjunction with the SWML to Bournemouth.

Furthermore it would have been handy for maintaining a direct Bournemouth - Bristol service post-Beeching!

Indeed, Bournemouth to anywhere in the southwest, whether Bristol area or Somerset/Devon/Cornwall, is a pain with a long, roundabout route required.

The lines north thereof were, I think, too slow to be used for any form of fast-ish Bristol service (this has come up in other threads some time ago). I have no doubt at all that an "Avon Valley direct line" from Salisbury to Christchurch would still be open today, and well-used. Can see perhaps an hourly service, alternating between Bristol, and London via Andover (the latter giving the intermediate stations a through London service).

I suppose we have Bournemouth's late, post-railway development to blame for this gap.

 

[zwk500]

Indeed, Bournemouth to anywhere in the southwest, whether Bristol area or Somerset/Devon/Cornwall, is a pain with a long, roundabout route required.

The lines north thereof were, I think, too slow to be used for any form of fast-ish Bristol service (this has come up in other threads some time ago). I have no doubt at all that an "Avon Valley direct line" from Salisbury to Christchurch would still be open today, and well-used. Can see perhaps an hourly service, alternating between Bristol, and London via Andover (the latter giving the intermediate stations a through London service).

I suppose we have Bournemouth's late, post-railway development to blame for this gap.

And geography. Salisbury and Yeovil are the only settlements of any note between Bournemouth and Bristol and even that's being rather charitable with 'between'. Traffic between Bournemouth and Bristol isn't minimal, but neither is it a significant trunk flow on its own, you'd need to supplement it with other flows and there's little opportunity to do that.

 

[PTR 444]

And geography. Salisbury and Yeovil are the only settlements of any note between Bournemouth and Bristol and even that's being rather charitable with 'between'. Traffic between Bournemouth and Bristol isn't minimal, but neither is it a significant trunk flow on its own, you'd need to supplement it with other flows and there's little opportunity to do that.

Via Salisbury also takes in Ringwood, Warminster, Trowbridge, Bath. As for Yeovil, that’s too far out to be on a direct Bournemouth - Bristol rail route, hence why the S&DJR avoided it and ran via Templecombe (tiny in comparison) instead.

 

[Western Sunset]

Whenever I had to attend meetings in Taunton/Yeovil/Bristol/Newton Abbot/Exeter (from Bournemouth) I usually drove in a hire car provided by the Council. I did try the train to Bristol once, but that was certainly a long way round via Southampton.

 

[nw1]

And geography. Salisbury and Yeovil are the only settlements of any note between Bournemouth and Bristol and even that's being rather charitable with 'between'. Traffic between Bournemouth and Bristol isn't minimal, but neither is it a significant trunk flow on its own, you'd need to supplement it with other flows and there's little opportunity to do that.

Though if the hypothetical Salisbury-Christchurch line had existed (which it presumably didn't because Bournemouth wasn't big enough at the time), you'd have that. Local traffic from Bournemouth to Salisbury, additional Salisbury to Bristol services, and perhaps links from the Andover area to Bournemouth.

Whenever I had to attend meetings in Taunton/Yeovil/Bristol/Newton Abbot/Exeter (from Bournemouth) I usually drove in a hire car provided by the Council. I did try the train to Bristol once, but that was certainly a long way round via Southampton.

Has anyone tried to operate an express coach from Bournemouth to Exeter incidentally?

Or an express coach shuttle (e.g. one stop only at Ringwood) from Bournemouth station to Salisbury station, to meet Bristol services, with through ticketing?