Have electric vehicles been "oversold" to the detriment of public transport, walking and cycling?

[johncrossley]

So, I'm just on my way back from a business trip to Glasgow and Ayrshire. Whilst there I hired a BMW i3 from a car club for the princely sum of £38/day.

That sounds amazing. Have you got a link to this?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Better fuel consumption and reduced brake wear, so less particulates from brake dust and longer life of pads and disks.

The key advantage of a PHEV (plugin hybrid) is that it can run on electricity where particulate emissions cause most harm, i.e. short journeys in towns.

 

[geoffk]

Currently the incentives for ‘motor shift’ from internal combustion to electric are greater than those for modal shift from cars to public transport/cycling/walking. This could push up car ownership and congestion and undermine attempts to increase active travel. Purchasers of an EV are offered up-front grants and lower motoring taxes compared to owners of ICE cars, but anyone tempted to give up a car or decide not to buy one has no similar reward or incentive for supporting public transport or active travel.

 

[trebor79]

That sounds amazing. Have you got a link to this?

www.co-wheels.org.uk
If you drop me a PM with your real name and email address that you might sign up with I can give you a "refer a friend" code that will give both of us £20 free rental.
There is a modest joining and monthly fee, but they run various offers where these are either waived completely or reduced to £1. They have a range of cars and vans - with conventional engines, electric and in Aberdeen even a couple of hydrogen fuelled cars! You can rent by the hour or by the day for up to 7 days at a time. The fuelled vehicles there is an additional mileage charge on a per mile basis, but they do include a fuel card so really the mileage charge is little more than the cost of fuel you'd have to buy.
There is no mileage charge on the electric vehicles, but you have to fund any charging yourself unless you can use a "Charge My Car" charger which they come with a card for. But in Scotland that's a complete non-issue anyway as there's free chargers all over the place (you do need to download the ChargePlace Scotland app, register and account and register a payment card, but so far as I can see all or the vast majority of the chargers are free, so you won't pay anything).
I drove 220 miles and "bought" 48kWh of electricity but left the car with about 40 miles more range than I found it with. If I'd paid for that at even the most punitive rip-off prices some charging networks charge, that would have cost less than £20.

 

[gg1]

Charge per minute that the charger is used and base this calculation on when the cable is out of its holder. As long as this was clearly communicated, people would soon realise that they need to re-seat the cable before driving off! You could set up some kind of system where the driver gets a text alert once the car stops drawing power.
(In fact, ideally, let some people get caught out by it and then refund their money as a goodwill gesture to great fanfare in the press).

That could be an effective solution to the problem.

The key advantage of a PHEV (plugin hybrid) is that it can run on electricity where particulate emissions cause most harm, i.e. short journeys in towns.

The post I responded to was referring to regular hybrids, not plug-ins.

 

[Bald Rick]

Alternatively could some device which acts as both an EV charging station and a lamp post be designed? I suspect it could.

they exist already…

 

[reddragon]

They'd have to be smaller than the current public chargers that are being installed, both to avoid taking up large amounts of pavement space and to keep the NIMBYs at bay.
Alternatively could some device which acts as both an EV charging station and a lamp post be designed? I suspect it could.

https://www.ubitricity.com/ - Already exists along with other solutions

In Cities we need rent by the hour cars, car club types such as Zipcar e-Golfs: -

Zipcar: Car Sharing Alternative for Daily and Hourly Car Rental

Zipcar is the world’s leading car sharing alternative to car rental & ownership. Book cars on demand by the hour or day. Join instantly, drive in minutes.

www.zipcar.com

A huge reduction in parked cars would result.

 

[Bletchleyite]

No problem with them being smaller; outside houses they would not need to be fast chargers, 13A would be fine.

 

[trebor79]

No problem with them being smaller; outside houses they would not need to be fast chargers, 13A would be fine.

Indeed. I am somewhat puzzled by the obsession with having a fast charger at home. My neighbour recently started renting a Leaf, and went to pretty extravagent expense putting in concrete ducting and armoured cable to a new rapid charger he had installed on his drive. He was showing it off to me, and I asked "But why not just plug it into the 13A socket that was already on the outside wall of your garage [like many, the garage is used to store "stuff" not cars]?"
He looked slightly horrified at the suggestion and said "Ugh, that would take ALL NIGHT to charge up! With this I can fully charge it from zero to 100% in about an hour!"
I said "So what? When are you ever going to arrive home with a nearly flat battery and almost immediately need to go straight back out on a long journey?". He went a bit quiet at that point.
The real irony is he hardly ever uses the car, preferring his wife's diesel BMW. I suspect that's because he gets a ludicrously small mileage allowance on the Leaf (he was also boasting about how little the monthly lease cost is).

When I get an EV I'll just have an external 13A socket put on the outside of the house. Don't really see the need for anything more than that TBH.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Exactly. The use-case for home charging is for the car to be plugged in whenever you are home, which is the majority of the time, meaning you almost always go out full. 13A is absolutely fine for that, and if people do just use 13A mostly overnight the impact on the grid is no worse (indeed, quite a bit better) than if they'd all just fitted storage heaters.

No different from the way the phone charger I have by my bed is an ancient low-current one - I don't need a charge in an hour because it's going to get about 7-8 hours every night.

 

[ainsworth74]

I do think it's worth having something specific put in. Particularly in a house with old wiring! But fast chargers aren't exactly required. Just a well installed, on a new wire, 13A socket should do the trick.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I do think it's worth having something specific put in. Particularly in a house with old wiring! But fast chargers aren't exactly required. Just a well installed, on a new wire, 13A socket should do the trick.

There is a spec for a 13A charging socket intended to have a full 13A drawn from it for a long period, one of these can be installed, as you say on a separate spur to the consumer unit as per e.g. a shower.

You definitely shouldn't use a double socket as these are not specced for 2 x 13A!

But either way you don't need a fast charger for at-home charging. On the rare occasion that you might have two long journeys back to back, pop out for lunch somewhere with a fast charger.

 

[GRALISTAIR]

I do think it's worth having something specific put in. Particularly in a house with old wiring! But fast chargers aren't exactly required. Just a well installed, on a new wire, 13A socket should do the trick.

I agree. On older housing estates it is surely also the cables and infrastructure leading up to the house too?

 

[Bletchleyite]

I agree. On older housing estates it is surely also the cables and infrastructure leading up to the house too?

Not really; the cables even if old are designed for far more than 13A.

 

[reddragon]

Indeed. I am somewhat puzzled by the obsession with having a fast charger at home. My neighbour recently started renting a Leaf, and went to pretty extravagent expense putting in concrete ducting and armoured cable to a new rapid charger he had installed on his drive. He was showing it off to me, and I asked "But why not just plug it into the 13A socket that was already on the outside wall of your garage [like many, the garage is used to store "stuff" not cars]?"
He looked slightly horrified at the suggestion and said "Ugh, that would take ALL NIGHT to charge up! With this I can fully charge it from zero to 100% in about an hour!"
I said "So what? When are you ever going to arrive home with a nearly flat battery and almost immediately need to go straight back out on a long journey?". He went a bit quiet at that point.
The real irony is he hardly ever uses the car, preferring his wife's diesel BMW. I suspect that's because he gets a ludicrously small mileage allowance on the Leaf (he was also boasting about how little the monthly lease cost is).

When I get an EV I'll just have an external 13A socket put on the outside of the house. Don't really see the need for anything more than that TBH.

In reality a standard 7kW wallbox with a type 2 cable is the best simple solution, it runs off a simple 32A spur. This charges at 21 mph versus a 13A socket at 6 mph. Why? So A - you can charge in the cheap slots, usually just 4 hours and B you can charge for longer commutes easily. Being able to add 60 miles overnight versus 250 miles is a no brainer and allows quick top ups when needed.

There is a spec for a 13A charging socket intended to have a full 13A drawn from it for a long period, one of these can be installed, as you say on a separate spur to the consumer unit as per e.g. a shower.

You definitely shouldn't use a double socket as these are not specced for 2 x 13A!

But either way you don't need a fast charger for at-home charging. On the rare occasion that you might have two long journeys back to back, pop out for lunch somewhere with a fast charger.

In reality a 7kW charger tends to be essential. a 2kW granny lead will do some of the time but have a reputation of melting substandard wiring.

I agree. On older housing estates it is surely also the cables and infrastructure leading up to the house too?

Most cables to houses are rated for 100A, this has long been the standard. If it is so old not to be able to deliver this it's time the DNO replaced it TBH.

 

[GRALISTAIR]

100A makes sense. Electric Cooker possibly; 1 or two electric showers possibly; 2 ring mains -upstairs and down stairs. 2 lighting circuits and Garage.

 

[Harpers Tate]

....if our present petrol pump can fill us up in 5 minutes say, every motorway service station will need 30/5

100% (pretty much) of ICE users use remote filling stations for every recharge of their cars. Are you making the same 100% assumption about EV drivers? If so then that would be flawed.

 

[DustyBin]

Better fuel consumption and reduced brake wear, so less particulates from brake dust and longer life of pads and disks.

The better fuel consumption point doesn’t always apply. I’ve mentioned it numerous times but if I were to swap to a 330e I’d be no better off than I am in my current petrol engined car and actually worse off than in my previous 520d. I appreciate that I’m talking about my own circumstances here, I’m not claiming this is a general rule although I imagine it will apply to plenty of other people.

You may be correct in regard to particulates from braking, but the extra weight of a hybrid detracts from some of the advantages. To what extent are these particulates considered a problem out of interest?

A hybrid has all the dis-benefits of both tech but little of the benefits.

Perhaps not always but in some cases I agree.

That's one of the reasons that I changed to a PHEV when I retired. I'm happy to do short trips to vary the start points of my daily walks, to get heavier shopping, etc. I wouldn't have wanted to do such trips in my previous 2 litre diesel which took 10 - 15 minutes to warm up. Its particulate filter wouldn't have liked them either.
My local Sainsbury's offers free charging, so around a half hour shop there gives me (almost*) free travel there and back.
It's also very low-stress to drive, no clutch or gear changing needed (although you can change gear manually when running on petrol), and of course no engine noise on local use.
*Obviously there is some added tyre wear etc.

As above; they have their place but would you not be better off with a full EV? Obviously I don’t know the nature of the other journeys you make.

The key advantage of a PHEV (plugin hybrid) is that it can run on electricity where particulate emissions cause most harm, i.e. short journeys in towns.

True, if used correctly they have advantages. Again however, if you’re driving in urban areas you may as well consider a full EV. In my own situation I’m struggling to see the PHEVs I’ve looked at as anything other than a (not particularly economical) way to pay less tax.

 

[Domh245]

The better fuel consumption point doesn’t always apply. I’ve mentioned it numerous times but if I were to swap to a 330e I’d be no better off than I am in my current petrol engined car and actually worse off than in my previous 520d. I appreciate that I’m talking about my own circumstances here, I’m not claiming this is a general rule although I imagine it will apply to plenty of other people.

You may be correct in regard to particulates from braking, but the extra weight of a hybrid detracts from some of the advantages. To what extent are these particulates considered a problem out of interest?

Particulates are a very topical issue if you're in urban environments! This post and this post in a different thread gives some helpful context about how severe an issue it is (though losing a couple of months of life is small fry compared to the environment being generally much more pleasant - compare the air in a small town to london and you'll see the effect!)


It's surprising perhaps that the 330e would give you worst mileage than your current car (given your current one is quite sporty IIRC? Not even Ford can overcome the laws of thermodynamics) though I suppose it implies your use case is a lot of longer journeys where the weight (and generally larger size) works against the hybrid. I'm still disappointed that we didn't see more diesel PHEVS which (bar weight) would have been the ideal vehicle - EV in urban areas and low CO2 diesel on interurban where the NOx and PM don't matter as much

 

[gg1]

The better fuel consumption point doesn’t always apply. I’ve mentioned it numerous times but if I were to swap to a 330e I’d be no better off than I am in my current petrol engined car and actually worse off than in my previous 520d. I appreciate that I’m talking about my own circumstances here, I’m not claiming this is a general rule although I imagine it will apply to plenty of other people.

You mean the BMW 330e, thought that was only available as a Plug-in Hybrid? I'm guessing it's optimised for performance rather than economy.

My baseline is my Niro Hybrid which typically achieves 60-65mpg around town and on country roads (pretty sure no ICE car can match that, definitely not one of comparable size), dropping to 55-60 for motorway driving, still better than virtually all petrol cars but bettered by some diesels.

You may be correct in regard to particulates from braking, but the extra weight of a hybrid detracts from some of the advantages. To what extent are these particulates considered a problem out of interest?

I read an article last year about a study which estimated that following far stricter emissions controls the past 10-15 years, brake dust now accounts for a greater volume of airborne particulates than exhaust emissions in urban areas, can't remember where I read it unfortunately.

 

[Bald Rick]

The better fuel consumption point doesn’t always apply. I’ve mentioned it numerous times but if I were to swap to a 330e I’d be no better off than I am in my current petrol engined car and actually worse off than in my previous 520d.

That of course depends on your typical driving ‘cycle’. As I’ve said before, a good friend of mine has a 330e, uses it to get to work 15 miles away, and various other trips of a similar distance. He rarely has to put fuel in at all. To all intents and purposes, for him, it’s an EV with an engine bolted on.


Back to on street charging, here is a lamppost charger near Euston...

 

[reddragon]

100% (pretty much) of ICE users use remote filling stations for every recharge of their cars. Are you making the same 100% assumption about EV drivers? If so then that would be flawed.

It is estimated that 90% of users charge at home 90% of the time.

 

[DelW]

As above; they have their place but would you not be better off with a full EV? Obviously I don’t know the nature of the other journeys you make.

When I ordered it nearly two years ago, I was still doing relatively frequent long journeys, from south east England to the west country, Wales or Scotland, and I wasn't sufficiently confident in the charging infrastructure to go full EV. There was also a rather smaller range of "normal car" EVs available then - I don't want to drive an imitation 4x4.

Obviously I've done fewer long trips than I expected, and I might choose differently today, but I plan to get quite a few more years out of the PHEV first!

 

[DustyBin]

Particulates are a very topical issue if you're in urban environments! This post and this post in a different thread gives some helpful context about how severe an issue it is (though losing a couple of months of life is small fry compared to the environment being generally much more pleasant - compare the air in a small town to london and you'll see the effect!)


It's surprising perhaps that the 330e would give you worst mileage than your current car (given your current one is quite sporty IIRC? Not even Ford can overcome the laws of thermodynamics) though I suppose it implies your use case is a lot of longer journeys where the weight (and generally larger size) works against the hybrid. I'm still disappointed that we didn't see more diesel PHEVS which (bar weight) would have been the ideal vehicle - EV in urban areas and low CO2 diesel on interurban where the NOx and PM don't matter as much

That’s interesting in regard to particulates, thanks. I don’t think there’s a general awareness of the issue, the main focus seems to be Co2 emissions from exhausts.

By virtue of it’s 1.5 3cyl turbo my Fiesta ST averages 36mpg which is pretty good really. I should point out that I don’t aim for maximum economy when driving and it returns considerably better mpg on motorway runs (over 40mpg is manageable). Based on what my 330e-driving colleagues tell me this is better than they’re managing. In some respects it’s an unfair comparison as a 3 Series is two segments up in terms of size, and much heavier especially in hybrid form, but on the other hand the Fiesta has a more powerful petrol engine and makes no pretence at being economical so it’s maybe not as unfair as it seems. The point I’m really trying to make is that in my real life example the hybrid option doesn’t stack up from an environmental point of view.

To be honest (and I say this as somebody not quite ready to go electric just yet) with the rapidly developing charging infrastructure and increasingly long ranges available, for the majority of people hybrid doesn’t make sense. Again, using my real life situation, the only reason* to choose a 330e over say a Model 3 is range anxiety which in reality isn’t as much of an issue as a lot of people think.

*I’m deliberately ignoring things such as performance, driving dynamics, even practical considerations such as boot capacity etc. for the purposes of this discussion.

You mean the BMW 330e, thought that was only available as a Plug-in Hybrid? I'm guessing it's optimised for performance rather than economy.

My baseline is my Niro Hybrid which typically achieves 60-65mpg around town and on country roads (pretty sure no ICE car can match that, definitely not one of comparable size), dropping to 55-60 for motorway driving, still better than virtually all petrol cars but bettered by some diesels.


I read an article last year about a study which estimated that following far stricter emissions controls the past 10-15 years, brake dust now accounts for a greater volume of airborne particulates than exhaust emissions in urban areas, can't remember where I read it unfortunately.

The 330e isn’t the most economical hybrid you’re right, it’s marketed as a “performance hybrid” although it’s not earth shatteringly fast. I don’t deliberately use it as an example for this reason though, I do so simply because it’s a car I’ve actually looked at getting. It seems pointless using say a Prius as a comparison when I’ve absolutely no intention of buying one…

That of course depends on your typical driving ‘cycle’. As I’ve said before, a good friend of mine has a 330e, uses it to get to work 15 miles away, and various other trips of a similar distance. He rarely has to put fuel in at all. To all intents and purposes, for him, it’s an EV with an engine bolted on.


Back to on street charging, here is a lamppost charger near Euston...

I can see how in your example a 330e works don’t get me wrong; as you say it becomes an EV lugging an engine around as opposed to a petrol engined car lugging a motor and battery around (which I’d argue is what it really is, most of the time anyway). Again though, why not go full EV?

When I ordered it nearly two years ago, I was still doing relatively frequent long journeys, from south east England to the west country, Wales or Scotland, and I wasn't sufficiently confident in the charging infrastructure to go full EV. There was also a rather smaller range of "normal car" EVs available then - I don't want to drive an imitation 4x4.

Obviously I've done fewer long trips than I expected, and I might choose differently today, but I plan to get quite a few more years out of the PHEV first!

Fair enough, things have moved on as you say and are continuously developing. I’m still “EV hesitant” but I’m becoming less so as time goes by. In fact, if I saw an EV that really appealed to me (and wasn’t Taycan money!) I may well go for it!

 

[skyhigh]

Exactly. The use-case for home charging is for the car to be plugged in whenever you are home, which is the majority of the time, meaning you almost always go out full. 13A is absolutely fine for that, and if people do just use 13A mostly overnight the impact on the grid is no worse (indeed, quite a bit better) than if they'd all just fitted storage heaters.

The issue with that however is that a lot if cars are considerably less efficient charging on 13A compared to higher currents. It also makes it very difficult to charge only on cheap EV time-of-use tariffs, unless you're only doing tiny mileage. For rare use a 13A socket is a good solution, but for most people a dedicated 7kW charger is useful.

 

[ashkeba]

In addition to this, some drivers such as myself avoid very short trips as they don’t do the vehicle a lot of good and they are highly inefficient as the engine doesn’t get up to normal operating temperature (these aren’t the only reasons I hasten to add!). Neither is an issue with an EV so a two minute trip to the corner shop etc. is as good as “free” and I’m sure some people will take advantage.

If many people take this view then yes, EVs will be to the detriment of walking and cycling. EVs are too big, too heavy and use too much energy to be used as raincoats.

Will EV users ride trains and buses more or less than before?

 

[Bletchleyite]

If many people take this view then yes, EVs will be to the detriment of walking and cycling. EVs are too big, too heavy and use too much energy to be used as raincoats.

Most people won't walk or cycle if it is raining and they own a car. So they are already using petrol and diesel cars as raincoats.

Will EV users ride trains and buses more or less than before?

If the trains are still 1980s DMUs then there is a good case that they should, or perhaps shared taxis. EVs are a huge threat to rural railways and bus services.

 

[reddragon]

If many people take this view then yes, EVs will be to the detriment of walking and cycling. EVs are too big, too heavy and use too much energy to be used as raincoats.

Will EV users ride trains and buses more or less than before?

I can answer that as a 6 year EV driver.

Trips I always did by car or train have not changed one bit but some marginal trips I have switched to the EV.

The trip itself, convenience, suitability and enjoyment remain dominant deciders.

 

[gg1]

Will EV users ride trains and buses more or less than before?

Not currently an EV owner but my next car will definitely be one. I don't think it will make the slightest difference which mode of transport I use, my choice is currently and will continue to be driven by speed, practicality and convenience.

 

[py_megapixel]

Not currently an EV owner but my next car will definitely be one. I don't think it would make the slightest difference which mode of transport I use, my choice is currently and will continue to be driven by speed, practicality and convenience.

Not cost at all?