Have SWT dropped off-peak tickets?

[Mainwaring]

Hello all,

I've just done a journey that I do a couple of times a month, a return from Clapham Junction to Thames Ditton.

In the past, at a weekend, I'd buy an off-peak return which cost about £4.40. However, today the option to buy an off-peak return was no longer available (on the machine, or online), with the ticket now costing £6.40 for an anytime return.

The SWT website says "Off-Peak Day Return. Return travel must be made on the same day. Time restrictions apply, please see the Off-Peak travel restrictions." I can't find that off-peak travel restrictions page anywhere.

I'm new to this site, and apologise if this has been covered elsewhere. Has SWT dropped off-peak returns? It looks like a 45% rise in my ticket price to me!

Thanks.

 

[Helvellyn]

With the introduction of Oyster PAYG to National Rail Off-peak Return tickets were withdrawn in the London Fares Zones area. This means for your journey the only tickets available are Anytime Day Singles, Anytime Day Returns or Off-peak Day Return.

The Off-peak return was withdrawn because TfL want passengers to migrate to Oyster in order to get the cheapest journey options. On Oyster PAYG Off-peak single fares are available, but cheaper than paper ticket equivalents.

 

[Mainwaring]

Thanks Helvellyn, I hadn't realised this change and I'll read up on that.

However, you say "This means for your journey the only tickets available are Anytime Day Singles, Anytime Day Returns or Off-peak Day Return" - it's actually the off-peak day return that I was after but wasn't available. Sorry if that wasn't clear from my post.

Any idea why the off-peak day return is unavailable?

Thanks.

 

[Edvid]

There was no Off Peak Return to begin with, he meant Off Peak Day Return when he said that; Off Peak Day Returns are still available outside the Travelcard Zones.

Hope that helps.

 

[clagmonster]

The cheap day return no longer exists, the only tickets still in existence are the day return and day single, at £6.40 and £3.40 respectively. If you have an Oyster card with pay as you go, then other than between 06:30-09:29 and 16:00-18:59, it will cost £2.20 single. At the listed peak times the Oyster fare would be £3.20 single.

 

[Mainwaring]

Very interesting, not sure how I missed all this happening!

As I say, I will now read up on all this....my initial thought is that this looks like it's made my purchase of a network card rather redundant as the Oyster payg appears to give a reduction of about one third itself, and presumably no further discount is available.

Thanks for your replies.

 

[clagmonster]

With Oyster cards, there is a daily price cap, to which you can get a railcard discount. You also get a railcard discount for journeys wholly on BR.

 

[Helvellyn]

Sorry, meant to say Off-peak Day Single, not return. There is also an evening peak in the London Fares Zones now, so withdrawing the Off-peak Day Return means that those buying singles should be buying the correct one for the time of day. Again though, will be cheaper to use Oyster.

 

[Ian99]

Is the daily price cap adjustment (34%) applicable to Network Card holders and if so (as is implied above) how does one claim this please?

 

[Chris-P]

Is the daily price cap adjustment (34%) applicable to Network Card holders and if so (as is implied above) how does one claim this please?

It's not applicable to Network Card holders (unfortunately, it's a bit naff to be honest, even though I have a 16-25 railcard)

 

[yorkie]

I think you, and thousands of others, would have a very good case against ATOC, as you bought a product that gave discounts and the discounts have been withdrawn without notice. You could try taking them to the small claims court - this won't cost you anything and can be done online. Worth a try, if nothing else it'll prove a point and cause hassle for ATOC.

 

[moonrakerz]

You could try taking them to the small claims court - this won't cost you anything and can be done online. Worth a try, if nothing else it'll prove a point and cause hassle for ATOC.

It will cost you, you have to pay the Court fees up front (unless you are on certain benefits).

"You will usually need to pay a fee to start your claim. The level of the fee will depend on the amount you are claiming." - from yorkie's link.

If you do take this route, don't forget to add ALL your costs to the claim.

Several years back I got over £400 from Alliance and Leicester for my costs - and they paid up the week before it was actually due at Court ! All it took was a couple of hours, in total, doing the paperwork.

Good luck !

 

[yorkie]

I didn't spot that, it's hidden away. They don't say what the fees are but this suggests it's £30 (for a claim of less than £300). But it could be worth it if you are going to be losing more than £30 in discounts. I'd love to see some cases be ruled against ATOC. They are like bullies who assume that no-one will ever challenge them. They're also not very bright, as the routeing guide farce shows.

Edit: just found this "If you are the claimant and you win your case, you will get the court fees back as well as the claim" so it is true that if you win it will not cost you anything (I knew I'd heard someone say it didn't cost them anything; that explains it!)

It may be a good idea to go to one of these CABs for free advice.

 

[Helvellyn]

I think you, and thousands of others, would have a very good case against ATOC, as you bought a product that gave discounts and the discounts have been withdrawn without notice.

What's actually been withdrawn? I'd be interested to see how many point-to-point journeys were previously made entirely in the London Fares Zones, and on which a Network Railcard discount was given. As these could only be done on a Weekend (or Bank Holiday) due to the minimum fare in place Monday to Friday, I wouldn't expect the number to be huge. Especially as the discount is available on Travelcards, which for many people would represent better value.

Indeed, Network Railcard discounts are still available on Off-peak Day Zone 1-6 Travelcards.

 

[surreysprite]

This is an interesting thread.

I've just paid £9.70 for an Anytime Day Single from Dorking to Waterloo because an off peak single was not available, even though I am pretty sure the fare is available 'via southern only'. I wonder if the off peak single was previously available. It's a rip on that on a Sunday night with engineering works on the network that it costs nearly a tenner for a single to london.

Also, the London via southern only fare is about 2 pounds cheaper and you have a chance of getting a train with comfortable seats and a toilet (377) rather than Swt's 455.

 

[Helvellyn]

This is an interesting thread.

I've just paid £9.70 for an Anytime Day Single from Dorking to Waterloo because an off peak single was not available, even though I am pretty sure the fare is available 'via southern only'. I wonder if the off peak single was previously available. It's a rip on that on a Sunday night with engineering works on the network that it costs nearly a tenner for a single to london.

Also, the London via southern only fare is about 2 pounds cheaper and you have a chance of getting a train with comfortable seats and a toilet (377) rather than Swt's 455.

The only fares withdrawn were Off-peak Day Returns for point-to-point journeys completely within the London Fares Zones. As Dorking is outside of the London Fares Zone then that does no apply.

A CDS is available "Southern Only" for £7.10. As this is a Southern Railway ticket, only valid on their services (and for which they get 100% of the revenue) SWT are under no obligation to honour that ticket. So the cheapest option is the SDS "Any Permitted" for £9.60.

 

[Mainwaring]

What's actually been withdrawn? I'd be interested to see how many point-to-point journeys were previously made entirely in the London Fares Zones, and on which a Network Railcard discount was given. As these could only be done on a Weekend (or Bank Holiday) due to the minimum fare in place Monday to Friday, I wouldn't expect the number to be huge. Especially as the discount is available on Travelcards, which for many people would represent better value.

Hmmm, I'm not sure I agree with the conclusion that not a huge amount of journeys are affected. I haven't worked through all this properly yet, but with my network card, and at weekends, I used buy a travelcard whenever my ticket price was >£7ish (as a travelcard costs £7.50, reducing to £5, and that's still the case). However I often did point to point off peak day returns within London - going to football, going to see friends etc. Therefore, as I see it, all my weekend return journeys below £7.50 now cost me more.

For example, (and to answer your 'what's been withdrawn') I've just done the same journey as prompted me to start this thread, and have therefore (over this weekend) paid £8.50 for two anytime return journeys with a network card that would have cost me £5.80 in December as off-peak day returns. Fair enough, this £2.70 increase isn't going to break the bank but it is a massive rise of 46%.

 

[surreysprite]

Ah ok, thanks for clearing that up.

This is off topic now I guess, bu it seems a very expensive fare.

Do the southern and swt tickets co-exist because they couldn't or didn't want to, agree on sharing the revenue? It doesn't make it very easy for customers who don't know or aren't interested in what operator they use toget to clapham junction for example.

Also why is there such a difference between the two fares?

 

[Helvellyn]

Mainwaring, I accept the point you make there. What would the equivalent fare have been if you'd Oyster PAYG instead of buying a paper ticket? From what we've been told it should be a lot cheaper than buying the paper tickets.

surreysprite, the "Southern only" ticket was introduced by Southern to ensure they get all the money for people using their services on these. The revenue from the "Any permitted" tickets is split between SWT and Southern. Even if only 1 in 1000 people used Southern on these, I suspect that Southern get a bigger split of the revenue than that.

The fares are cheaper to encourage use of the Southern services. Unfortunatley it's a case of the passenger checking what they buy - "Southern only" tickets are not valid on SWT, so anyone travelling with one is expected to buy a new ticket. If the ticket was routed "East Croydon" it would be possible to excess, but because Southern made it TOC specific then an excess doesn't apply the same way as it would for being off route.

 

[Mainwaring]

Mainwaring, I accept the point you make there. What would the equivalent fare have been if you'd Oyster PAYG instead of buying a paper ticket? From what we've been told it should be a lot cheaper than buying the paper tickets.

Well, I think that:

Old price (off-peak day return):
£4.40 (or £4.35, can't remember) / with network card £2.90

New price (anytime return)
£6.40 / £4.25 with network card

Oyster I think is £2.20 each way, so £4.40 return.

It's very interesting this bit about the railcard....that's the difference isn't it. The Oyster return is the same fare as the old off-peak return, but you can't discount this new fare with a network card. Damn!

 

[surreysprite]

Ok thanks, so it's southern being greedy, or encouraging patronage, rather than swt as I presumed.

I'll be quiet now so the orignial topic can be discussed cheers for your help.

 

[Helvellyn]

It's very interesting this bit about the railcard....that's the difference isn't it. The Oyster return is the same fare as the old off-peak return, but you can't discount this new fare with a network card. Damn!

I wonder if the Network Card discount is not valid because even if you could put the discount on the holder's Oyster Card, you wouldn't be able to do it if a group were travelling and wanted the discount on their cards too for that journey.

Whereas with a 16-25 railcard, only the holder is travelling on it any time, so TfL can apply the discount authority to the Oyster card.

 

[yorkie]

What about family railcards? That will apply weekdays too... an even bigger issue to consider if they are no longer valid for discounts...

 

[Bill Badger]

What about family railcards? That will apply weekdays too... an even bigger issue to consider if they are no longer valid for discounts...

Ditto Gold Cards too.

I only did it occassionally, but when traveling from Farnborough to somewhere is South East London, it was usually cheaper to split at Clapham Junction and buy a seperate ticket; both with the Gold Card discount, but this is no longer the case.

 

[LondonLarry]

Oyster PAYG discounts are not available to holders of Friends & Family, Network Railcard or Annual Gold cards. Helvellyn's right about not being able to put the discount onto multiple cards at once. Anyone travelling wholly inboundary on one of those railcards will, unfortunately, have to buy a discounted paper ticket.

 

[eBatch]

I first became aware that off-peak day returns (to London stations from my local London station) were no longer available on 3rd Jan. I was most perplexed by this and tried the National Rail website, the Southern website and the ticket machine at my local station - none of them had off-peak day returns available. At first I thought it might be a computer glitch of some sort and that it would get resolved quickly.

After a few days something clicked and I realised that the eradication of off-peak day returns might be to do with harmonisation of fares structures for the purpose of Oyster cards.

However, at no time had I seen or heard any annoucements that this was about to happen and, especially, what the impact for off-peak day returns would be. Consequently, I hadn't made the final connection that "reduced" Oyster fares might be already available. In fact I wasn't aware that Oyster cards could be now used for such journeys.

It was only something embedded in an emal shot from Southern 2 days ago that finally announced that Oyster Pay As You Go has arrived for National Rail London Zones 1-6. So I went onto the TFL website and "learnt the truth".

Apart from the railcard issue mentioned in some other posts, Oyster card is the way forward. BUT WHY HASN'T THIS BEEN (PROPERLY) PUBLICISED?

 

[yorkie]

Apart from the railcard issue mentioned in some other posts, Oyster card is the way forward. BUT WHY HASN'T THIS BEEN (PROPERLY) PUBLICISED?

They don't want to spread bad news, or admit they are breaking the terms of the railcards that they sold.

 

[Capybara]

They don't want to spread bad news, or admit they are breaking the terms of the railcards that they sold.

To be fair, the new London fares have been pretty badly publicised generally. I looked for the usual January 1 onwards TfL fares leaflet for ages until I finally got one, got it home and found it was last year's. The leaflet containing the fares actually has Oyster branding and looks just like any other leaflet encouraging you to use Oyster which, of course, you don't pick up if you already have an Oyster card.

 

[eBatch]

There mut have been an enormous number of people who frequently purchased off peak day returns (e.g. part-time workers that could travel in after 9.30) that suddenly found themselves hit with full any-time return fares without any explanation or understanding of the Oyster card situation.

To put it in context I frequently get an Evening Standard, plus I listen to local radio and yet I'd heard zilch about this (but there's plenty of ads cynically being paid for by government departments to try and pump up the government's profile prior to the election).

 

[yorkie]

There mut have been an enormous number of people who frequently purchased off peak day returns (e.g. part-time workers that could travel in after 9.30) that suddenly found themselves hit with full any-time return fares without any explanation or understanding of the Oyster card situation.

To put it in context I frequently get an Evening Standard, plus I listen to local radio and yet I'd heard zilch about this (but there's plenty of ads cynically being paid for by government departments to try and pump up the government's profile prior to the election).

Yes, and even if they use Oyster PAYG, passengers going off peak after 0930 and returning around 1700 will be chinged - just by not quite as much - due to the evening peak rises.

Oyster PAYG is an excuse for fare rises by stealth - FACT.