Have 'Via Barnham' routed tickets removed from sale?

[sftfan1909]

Hi all,
I have noticed that I cannot get the 'via Barnham' routed fares between Kent and places such as Southampton that were previously available to show up on any ticket selling website.
For example, this fare is listed on BRFares https://www.brfares.com/!faredetail?orig=DVP&dest=SOU&rte=947&tkt=SVR
However, searching for this using GWR's site doesn't list it as an option https://www.gwr.com/tickets/#/5033/5932/2021-07-24/D08:00/2021-07-24/D16:00/1/0/0/1/1/N/N/N
I am wondering if there's something I am missing or if the fares have been taken off sale?

 

[Joshua_Harman]

Hi all,
I have noticed that I cannot get the 'via Barnham' routed fares between Kent and places such as Southampton that were previously available to show up on any ticket selling website.
For example, this fare is listed on BRFares https://www.brfares.com/!faredetail?orig=DVP&dest=SOU&rte=947&tkt=SVR
However, searching for this using GWR's site doesn't list it as an option https://www.gwr.com/tickets/#/5033/5932/2021-07-24/D08:00/2021-07-24/D16:00/1/0/0/1/1/N/N/N
I am wondering if there's something I am missing or if the fares have been taken off sale?

Something to do with the many works going on on the line perhaps?

 

[Wallsendmag]

I would gues that there is a problem with the reference data if it is affecting all sites. Maybe an end date on the route or somethging along those lines.

 

[TrainTube]

Must be a website thing, on a tvm it showed as £31 for an anytime day return for adults

 

[yorkie]

Must be a website thing, on a tvm it showed as £31 for an anytime day return for adults

In journey planner mode?

 

[JonathanH]

These fares definitely still showing using the 'Mixing Deck' interface, by using the 'show slower routes' functionality.
https://tickets.gwr.com/gw/en/journeyplanning/mixingdeck

The problem with the OP's original search just putting Barnham as a 'via' point is that the quickest route the journey planner has found between Dover and Barnham is via St Pancras and that route is barred for 'via Barnham' fares.

 

[BluePenguin]

I can get them to come out by putting Ham Street, Brighton and Leigh as via points?

 

[JB_B]

GWR is successfully finding these fares for most dates but not for this weekend 24-25, nor the next couple of Saturdays. It then it fails again for Sat 14 - Sun 22 August inclusive.

That pattern looks like it could be engineering works making the journey too long (or diverted off route) for GWR's - planner.

(Update: I see that the there is a blockade scheduled in the Horsham area for 14-22 August inclusive - could that be a clue?)

 

[TrainTube]

In journey planner mode?

It was an swr tvm, just did ticket from other stations, Southampton to Margate and 2 options came up, via swml or via barnham and the latter was £31 for an anytime adult

These fares definitely still showing using the 'Mixing Deck' interface, by using the 'show slower routes' functionality.
https://tickets.gwr.com/gw/en/journeyplanning/mixingdeck

The problem with the OP's original search just putting Barnham as a 'via' point is that the quickest route the journey planner has found between Dover and Barnham is via St Pancras and that route is barred for 'via Barnham' fares.

I thought once you pass barnham you can go whichever route to Margate via horsham whether that's from Charing cross or Victoria or st pancras

 

[Nunners]

It was an swr tvm, just did ticket from other stations, Southampton to Margate and 2 options came up, via swml or via barnham and the latter was £31 for an anytime adult


I thought once you pass barnham you can go whichever route to Margate via horsham whether that's from Charing cross or Victoria or st pancras

There are electronic route restrictions which prevent travel via London. These are non-binding but it does prevent journey planners showing journeys via London.
It's also not valid cross-london so using it on HS1 is questionable at best and very likely wouldn't get past the barrier staff

 

[sftfan1909]

Many thanks for the help - very glad they are still available

 

[Paul Kelly]

There are electronic route restrictions which prevent travel via London. These are non-binding but it does prevent journey planners showing journeys via London.
It's also not valid cross-london so using it on HS1 is questionable at best and very likely wouldn't get past the barrier staff

Just a minor pedantic point but if the Routeing Guide says it's valid cross-London (I haven't checked) then it is. Maybe you meant to say that it won't operate London Underground barriers?

 

[TrainTube]

There are electronic route restrictions which prevent travel via London. These are non-binding but it does prevent journey planners showing journeys via London.
It's also not valid cross-london so using it on HS1 is questionable at best and very likely wouldn't get past the barrier staff

Surely it would be valid if you were to get thameslink from east Croydon and change at st pancras as that is definitely one of the quicker options and possibly most popular

 

[JonathanH]

Surely it would be valid if you were to get thameslink from east Croydon and change at st pancras as that is definitely one of the quicker options and possibly most popular

How are you measuring popularity? It doesn't really occur to me that a fare priced by Southern which would appear to be intended for travel along the coast via Hastings and Brighton should be valid via St Pancras.

I'm a bit surprised that the restriction of validity to exclude routes via London is managed by unpublished electronic means and not a published negative easement.

 

[JB_B]

Surely it would be valid if you were to get thameslink from east Croydon and change at st pancras as that is definitely one of the quicker options and possibly most popular

There's nothing in the public-facing routeing guide to tell passengers that they can't go via London using "via Barnham" tickets. The yellow pages list mapped routes via LONDON for journeys from Dover Priory to Southampton (for example) and the human readable route description simply says "VIA BARNHAM" - it doesn't tell you that it isn't meant to be valid via London. The absence of a cross-London '+' doesn't necessarily preclude travel via London.



On the other hand, the electronic data for route 00947 (via Barnham) has LONDON_MARKER=0 (ie the route excludes London). It also excludes travel via: Bromley South,Dartford,Ebbsfleet International Domestic, Orpington,Stratford International.

That means a journey planner should never show journeys via London for these tickets (incl via HS1.)

 

[roversfan2001]

I'm a bit surprised that the restriction of validity to exclude routes via London is managed by unpublished electronic means and not a published negative easement.

Of course, now it's been publicised on here, that may change very soon.

 

[JonathanH]

Of course, now it's been publicised on here, that may change very soon.

It appears to already be well known so I wouldn't worry about it being 'given away' on here.

 

[JB_B]

It appears to already be well known so I wouldn't worry about it being 'given away' on here.

Yes, it's been this way for years and has been discussed many times in the public forums.

 

[Nunners]

Just a minor pedantic point but if the Routeing Guide says it's valid cross-London (I haven't checked) then it is. Maybe you meant to say that it won't operate London Underground barriers?

Yes, that is what I meant, sorry. I was also under the impression that it wouldn't be valid on Thameslink as Farringdon isn't part of London Group

 

[sftfan1909]

On the other hand, the electronic data for route 00947 (via Barnham) has LONDON_MARKER=0 (ie the route excludes London). It also excludes travel via: Bromley South,Dartford,Ebbsfleet International Domestic, Orpington,Stratford International.

This is interesting because I have used one of these tickets in the barriers at London Victoria previously and they opened - do they not catch this?

 

[JB_B]

This is interesting because I have used one of these tickets in the barriers at London Victoria previously and they opened - do they not catch this?

In general, barrier coding is quite hit-and-miss so it's not a total surprise but I wouldn't have expected that to work.

 

[Nunners]

This is interesting because I have used one of these tickets in the barriers at London Victoria previously and they opened - do they not catch this?

They also open Waterloo and Waterloo East.
They only work in the Southern side of Victoria

 

[BluePenguin]

Seeing as the original question has been answered and established the fares have not been removed, can we please get this thread locked? A lot of extra information is being posted that should be kept silent!

Some of us depend on these fares and do you not want to face any confrontation when using them in the future. Obey what the journey planner and electronic routing data says, or don’t. It’s up to you. Although the last thing we need is for further restrictions to be added to these fares. Just travel via Barnham in some way or another. Sometimes it’s better to let sleeping dogs lie…

 

[TrainTube]

Seeing as the original question has been answered and established the fares have not been removed, can we please get this thread locked? A lot of extra information is being posted that should be kept silent!

Some of us depend on these fares and do you not want to face any confrontation when using them in the future. Obey what the journey planner and electronic routing data says, or don’t. It’s up to you. Although the last thing we need is for further restrictions to be added to these fares. Just travel via Barnham in some way or another. Sometimes it’s better to let sleeping dogs lie…

We are having a very valid discussion and would prefer if drama wasn't caused, anyway I'm curious as to know why would Waterloo east be valid on this ticket, is this via changing at Clapham junction?

 

[Joe Paxton]

Seeing as the original question has been answered and established the fares have not been removed, can we please get this thread locked? A lot of extra information is being posted that should be kept silent!

Some of us depend on these fares and do you not want to face any confrontation when using them in the future. Obey what the journey planner and electronic routing data says, or don’t. It’s up to you. Although the last thing we need is for further restrictions to be added to these fares. Just travel via Barnham in some way or another. Sometimes it’s better to let sleeping dogs lie…

Might I suggest it's best not to get too attached to fares such as these. For better or worse, GBR is coming.

 

[JonathanH]

Might I suggest it's best not to get too attached to fares such as these. For better or worse, GBR is coming.

If anything, I see PAYG as the greater threat to these south coast fares, and in particular, the opportunity for breaking journeys and stopping short, even on the actual line of south coast route, quite aside from people using them to travel into London.

 

[Gathursty]

I've seen a journey on NRE allowing Barnham - HS1 - Kent and checking prices via Tonbridge/Dartford/Godstone gives the same price as the normal fare so I'm very satisfied I could stroll into St Pancras and say let me in etc...

We shall see how this actually goes down next Monday.

 

[BluePenguin]

We are having a very valid discussion and would prefer if drama wasn't caused, anyway I'm curious as to know why would Waterloo east be valid on this ticket, is this via changing at Clapham junction?

Onto the Southern services there yes

Might I suggest it's best not to get too attached to fares such as these. For better or worse, GBR is coming.

Better make the most of them whilst they last eh?

 

[miklcct]

I've seen a journey on NRE allowing Barnham - HS1 - Kent and checking prices via Tonbridge/Dartford/Godstone gives the same price as the normal fare so I'm very satisfied I could stroll into St Pancras and say let me in etc...

We shall see how this actually goes down next Monday.

Any result of this? I'm a bit shocked if the HS1 is a permitted route between Barnham and Dover, which will mean that a dirt cheap "via Barnham" ticket between Soton and Dover can be used on the HS1!

Are you sure that there are no negative easements preventing such uses?

 

[Gathursty]

Any result of this? I'm a bit shocked if the HS1 is a permitted route between Barnham and Dover, which will mean that a dirt cheap "via Barnham" ticket between Soton and Dover can be used on the HS1!

Are you sure that there are no negative easements preventing such uses?

I ended up not buying the ticket as I had a last minute change of plan. Yorkie does say that if you can get NRE to show it as an itinerary which Barnham to Margate does show via St P then it must be valid however I didn't search for Soton via Barnham to Margate, only Barnham to Margate.