"Have you used this before?"

[jacksonbang]

I'm sure I don't need to say that this refers to the use of an Off Peak Open Return.

I went on a little UK tour over the last few weeks - I started by visiting my sister in Banbury - buying an aforementioned Rye to Banbury open return for the month and, from then on, buying split Advance tickets to Liverpool, Edinburgh, Newcastle and Wolverhampton before returning down via Reading to use the return portion of my ticket home.

My intention was to go from London Victoria to Hastings to Rye. No problem - about half way through the journey around Lewes there was a ticket check - my paper ticket was casually glanced at, the supervisor moved on momentarily until they came back looked again and said those magic words in the header. In a bit of a shock, I looked at my ticket and then said "Is there something wrong with it?" - they said "No - it's just really old" (three weeks), "It's still valid, right?" "Yes, but normally the returns are used sooner" - ticket was then taken from me - huge biro line drawn through with the date.

Two questions -

I'm basically being asked if I am committing fraud, right?
What if I wanted to break my journey at Eastbourne or/and Hastings?

I guess I wouldn't care so much if I got off at Hastings and their wasn't an actual trio of security guards dealing with a multitude of ticketless travel with a shrug of the shoulders.

 

[Watershed]

I'm sure I don't need to say that this refers to the use of an Off Peak Open Return.

I went on a little UK tour over the last few weeks - I started by visiting my sister in Banbury - buying an aforementioned Rye to Banbury open return for the month and, from then on, buying split Advance tickets to Liverpool, Edinburgh, Newcastle and Wolverhampton before returning down via Reading to use the return portion of my ticket home.

My intention was to go from London Victoria to Hastings to Rye. No problem - about half way through the journey around Lewes there was a ticket check - my paper ticket was casually glanced at, the supervisor moved on momentarily until they came back looked again and said those magic words in the header. In a bit of a shock, I looked at my ticket and then said "Is there something wrong with it?" - they said "No - it's just really old" (three weeks), "It's still valid, right?" "Yes, but normally the returns are used sooner" - ticket was then taken from me - huge biro line drawn through with the date.

Two questions -

I'm basically being asked if I am committing fraud, right?
What if I wanted to break my journey at Eastbourne or/and Hastings?

I guess I wouldn't care so much if I got off at Hastings and their wasn't an actual trio of security guards dealing with a multitude of ticketless travel with a shrug of the shoulders.

A lot of staff seem not to understand that you might want to break your journey, and believe that they should mark any period return in some sort of secret language that will tell other staff it's been used - I've seen days of the months marked, circles, squiggles, the lot.

It's all nonsense because what should really be marked is the section of route that the ticket has been used over - for instance "VIC-EBN". If that requires asking the passenger whether, and if so where, they intend to break their journey then so be it. There aren't as many paper open returns about nowadays, so it's hardly an insurmountable task.

 

[JonathanH]

It's all nonsense because what should really be marked is the section of route that the ticket has been used over - for instance "VIC-EBN".

Quite how that has never been how inspection staff are trained is a mystery. If something is marked other than a meaningless scribble, it is seemingly always the date.

 

[tramdan]

A lot of staff seem not to understand that you might want to break your journey, and believe that they should mark any period return in some sort of secret language that will tell other staff it's been used - I've seen days of the months marked, circles, squiggles, the lot.

It's all nonsense because what should really be marked is the section of route that the ticket has been used over - for instance "VIC-EBN". If that requires asking the passenger whether, and if so where, they intend to break their journey then so be it. There aren't as many paper open returns about nowadays, so it's hardly an insurmountable task.

It is my approach when checking tickets, in the case of period returns, to ask the passenger if they are travelling all the way to the destination today. (Sometimes it’s obvious, for example in the case that the destination is the next stop for the train.) More often than not, they answer to the affirmative, and I write the date on the ticket.

In the case of someone breaking their journey, I would be careful to make that very clear in any markings I make.

It is an unusual thing to come across, but as with all unusual things, we should always be prepared to deal correctly with them.

 

[jamiearmley]

A lot of staff seem not to understand that you might want to break your journey, and believe that they should mark any period return in some sort of secret language that will tell other staff it's been used - I've seen days of the months marked, circles, squiggles, the lot.

It's all nonsense because what should really be marked is the section of route that the ticket has been used over - for instance "VIC-EBN". If that requires asking the passenger whether, and if so where, they intend to break their journey then so be it. There aren't as many paper open returns about nowadays, so it's hardly an insurmountable task.

Agreed, and it's what I do.

Only once has someone said, 'what I'm doing is not your concern', so I smiled, thanked them, and marked that days date on the ticket and moved on.

Secret languages, codes, old BR methods that aren't trained out anymore shouldn't be a thing.

A simple MAN-BHM 06/04 should suffice, and indeed should be the standard.

 

[fandroid]

And 3 weeks is hardly "old"! You'd think he/she had heard of the concept of "holidays", or even work assignments away from home.

 

[sheff1]

When I used to travel to Manchester far more often than I do now I often bought an Off Peak Return, used the outward portion and then came back on an Advance (or, whilst it ran, on the X57) before buying an Advance for my next outward journey. If the fares were right I might make three or more journeys on Advances before finally using the return portion of the Off Peak Return towards the end of its validity. Coupled with sometimes buying an Off Peak Return in the eastbound drection having travelled west on an Advance or the bus, I might well have had two Off Peak Returns in opposite directions to use near the end of their validity.

Some guards looked at the tickets very closely before writing a date on them but I don't recall any asking "Have you used this before (are you committing fraud)" and quite right too as my ticketing arrangements were always completely above board.

As an aside, I never understood why TPE did away with the Sheffield - Manchester Day Returns shortly after winnng the franchise. When they were available I suspect that was most peeple would have bought - making people buy a return valid for month on a short route where the majority probably go for the day seems to open up missuse possibilities for the less scrupulous who find their return portion has not been checked/clipped.

 

[RJ]

Two questions -

I'm basically being asked if I am committing fraud, right?
What if I wanted to break my journey at Eastbourne or/and Hastings?

I guess I wouldn't care so much if I got off at Hastings and their wasn't an actual trio of security guards dealing with a multitude of ticketless travel with a shrug of the shoulders.

Yes - you’d be surprised how many people sing like a canary to incriminate themselves - why people do this is beyond me.

It’s part of the experience to be asked that question when legitimately using an open return

 

[greyman42]

And 3 weeks is hardly "old"! You'd think he/she had heard of the concept of "holidays", or even work assignments away from home.

Surely if the ticket is valid then the inspection is complete and the guard should move on?

 

[etr221]

Surely if the ticket is valid then the inspection is complete and the guard should move on?

Bottom line to this is how to tell if a ticket is valid.

Alternative way of putting it: if, at as near as makes no difference (ANAMD) the same time and place, two similar (ANAMD) tickets are presented by two similar (ANAMD) passengers, are they necessarily either both valid, or both not valid? Does the possibility of one of them having been used (but not marked) change the answer to this question?

 

[greyman42]

Bottom line to this is how to tell if a ticket is valid.

Alternative way of putting it: if, at as near as makes no difference (ANAMD) the same time and place, two similar (ANAMD) tickets are presented by two similar (ANAMD) passengers, are they necessarily either both valid, or both not valid? Does the possibility of one of them having been used (but not marked) change the answer to this question?

If the ticket is in date then surely it's valid?

 

[fandroid]

When I used to travel to Manchester far more often than I do now I often bought an Off Peak Return, used the outward portion and then came back on an Advance (or, whilst it ran, on the X57) before buying an Advance for my next outward journey. If the fares were right I might make three or more journeys on Advances before finally using the return portion of the Off Peak Return towards the end of its validity. Coupled with sometimes buying an Off Peak Return in the eastbound drection having travelled west on an Advance or the bus, I might well have had two Off Peak Returns in opposite directions to use near the end of their validity.

Some guards looked at the tickets very closely before writing a date on them but I don't recall any asking "Have you used this before (are you committing fraud)" and quite right too as my ticketing arrangements were always completely above board.

As an aside, I never understood why TPE did away with the Sheffield - Manchester Day Returns shortly after winnng the franchise. When they were available I suspect that was most peeple would have bought - making people buy a return valid for month on a short route where the majority probably go for the day seems to open up missuse possibilities for the less scrupulous who find their return portion has not been checked/clipped.

I have thought about doing this in the past. I used to fly into regional UK airports from Europe before returning home to Basingstoke by train. I also regularly travelled to these same UK cities from home, so then could have used the return part of any ticket for the outward leg. However my travels weren't predictable enough to know that I'd use the ticket within the 31 day validity

 

[Haywain]

If the ticket is in date then surely it's valid?

In date and unused.

 

[Grumpy Git]

I've just brought an open return on CCST from my local station, and I'm not sure I've noticed before, but the statement 'Valid for one journey' is printed along the top edge of the central yellow section (of both portions). Was this always the case?

 

[Watershed]

I've just brought an open return on CCST from my local station, and I'm not sure I've noticed before, but the statement 'Valid for one journey' is printed along the top edge of the central yellow section (of both portions). Was this always the case?

This phrase was introduced as part of one of the countless "simplification" exercises the industry has (evidently fruitlessly) conducted along the years. Not all ticket issuing machines were updated at the same time, but broadly speaking I think it was about 4 or 5 years ago that it started appearing.

Unfortunately, I have heard of staff referring to this phrase in an attempt to justify claims that you couldn't recommence using a ticket after a break of journey. Of course, that's simply not correct, but it does lend itself to that kind of misinterpretation and so I'd rather that it had never been added!

Coming back to the OP's issue at hand, the presence of absence of that phrase has no bearing on the validity of the ticket for break of journey, or indeed the ability to start using the return portion within a month of the outward journey.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

I've just brought an open return on CCST from my local station, and I'm not sure I've noticed before, but the statement 'Valid for one journey' is printed along the top edge of the central yellow section (of both portions). Was this always the case?

This phrase was introduced as part of one of the countless "simplification" exercises the industry has (evidently fruitlessly) conducted along the years. Not all ticket issuing machines were updated at the same time, but broadly speaking I think it was about 4 or 5 years ago that it started appearing.

Been the case, I believe, since at least mid June 2018, (looking at a tickets I've still got for a journey to/from Worcester), so accords with what @Watershed says.